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Thread: Sweeper Monk's kungfu.

  1. #1
    Senior Member Yeung Gor's Avatar
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    Default Sweeper Monk's kungfu.

    Why would some of you assume he might not have used Shaolin kungfu? I heard this theory a while back and find that pretty outragious. Sweeper is an enlighten monk, he preach about how to achieve it. There is no doubt in my mind his skill is full shaolin. No one truly understood the foundation of shaolin kungfu like sweeper did.

    I think JY wanted a character like Sweeper that is perhaps probably a sweeper for the temple all his life but despite his low ranks was truly the most enlighten person in that universe. I think that's what make Sweeper Monk great is that he was no one special but yet he is. And by assuming he learn kungfu from elsewhere kinda go against JY's meaning behind that character. That's why I don't subscribe to that theory one bit.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    How do you think he reached enlightenment?

    In Laviathan's words, in order to leave behind worldly matters and attain peace, one needs to experience the worldly matters first.

    I highly doubt Sweeper Monk had a peaceful life before attaining enlightenment.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member Yeung Gor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    How do you think he reached enlightenment?

    In Laviathan's words, in order to leave behind worldly matters and attain peace, one needs to experience the worldly matters first.

    I highly doubt Sweeper Monk had a peaceful life before attaining enlightenment.
    According to your statement, in order to attain enlightenment, one must have sex so they can experience it first and then reject it? I don't think one needs to commit all the sins or desires man have in order to attain enlightenment. To attain enlightenment one must recognize one's own desire and eliminate them all and follow the path of rightiousness. Enlightement isn't achieve through outter means or experience but through inner means as in meditation.

    Btw, this thread isn't about Sweeper's life but his kungfu. What I meant by Sweeper is only a sweeper all his life for shaolin temple is not that he has never been outside. He could have been a trouble youth at one piont but found shelter in the temple and became a sweeper and he remain so for the rest of his life. Or he could have been a orphan drop off to the temple as a toddler. Despite what life he lead before being a sweeper, it's not as important. But I strongly disagree that he didn't use Shaolin Kungfu.
    Last edited by Yeung Gor; 09-10-05 at 12:02 AM.

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    Well what we do know is that Sweeper has been in hiding in Shaolin for about 42-43 years in his own words. He is at least 70-80 years old so he definitely had a past before coming to Shaolin to become a janitor.
    明月心跳起來,又回頭,嫣然道,你還要不要我帶上那面具?
    傅紅雪冷道,現在你臉上豈非已經戴上了個面具?

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Knowledge/immediate identification of Jiu Mozhi's Xiaowu Xiangong, when no one else in Shaolin (or elsewhere for that matter) could. He was able to identify it by NAME.

    That directly implies he had knowledge of Xiao Yao Sect before coming to Shaolin, and throughout the book, no one but people directly related to Xiao Yao Pai had knowledge of those skills.

    And his seeming ignorance of Xiao Feng's XL18Z, to the point of taking one on the chest and seeing how powerful it is, resonates with the fact that Xiao Yao Pai never possessed XL18Z.

    Those, amongst other things, have led me and some others to conclude he has a very strong connection to the Xiao Yao Pai...which then directly implies that his martial arts were possibly from Xiao Yao Pai as well, which would explain how incredible he was.

    And it'd make sense; after all, it was the strongest sect of that time by far.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 09-10-05 at 01:10 AM.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Even if he has Xiao Yao skills in his earlier life, I would think that at the highest levels, all kung fus merge into one. So he wasn't really using Xiao Yao or Shaolin or Dian Chang kung fu. He had reached the highest point beyond those stuff.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Yeung Gor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing
    Knowledge/immediate identification of Jiu Mozhi's Xiaowu Xiangong, when no one else in Shaolin (or elsewhere for that matter) could. He was able to identify it by NAME.

    That directly implies he had knowledge of Xiao Yao Sect before coming to Shaolin, and throughout the book, no one but people directly related to Xiao Yao Pai had knowledge of those skills.

    And his seeming ignorance of Xiao Feng's XL18Z, to the point of taking one on the chest and seeing how powerful it is, resonates with the fact that Xiao Yao Pai never possessed XL18Z.

    Those, amongst other things, have led me and some others to conclude he has a very strong connection to the Xiao Yao Pai...which then directly implies that his martial arts were possibly from Xiao Yao Pai as well, which would explain how incredible he was.

    And it'd make sense; after all, it was the strongest sect of that time by far.
    Just because he can name a kungfu by name doesn't imply he is somehow related to Xiao Yao Pai. Here's why. Sweeper Monk roam Shaolin for many many years. He sees all and hears all. Remember how he knows Siu Yun San every move and what he did and learn? As well as MRB movements as well through Shaolin? Alot of fighters have pass by Shaolin throughout the years, including possibly Xiao Yao Pai fighters. It would not suprise me that even the elders of Xiao Yao Pai had visited Shaolin before. Sweeper perhaps learn of the kungfu name through that way. I think my scenerio is more probable. And when someone lives as long as Sweeper did, it's not hard to know so much about wulin events and others martial arts.

    Regarding Dragon Palms, it wasn't ignorance he display, but more curiosity.

    And Xiao Yao Pai was the strongest sect of that time because no one besides Sweeper in shaolin could grasp the foundation of shoalin kungfu to reach the highest level.

    Sweeper Monk is only a sweeper monk. He may have had a a life before he became a monk like most monks do, but I still hold that his kungfu is shaolin origin.
    Last edited by Yeung Gor; 09-10-05 at 04:08 AM.

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    That's far too simplistic.

    Simply the NAME itself, not even the martial arts energy, "Xiao Wu Xiang Gong", is highly, highly secret. Not even all of Tianshan Tonglao's slave leaders could recognize it; in fact, aside from Jiumozhi and the three elders, no one else even practiced it. Li Qiushui was off being an empress, Tianshan Tonglao was chillin' at her mountain (and, if I'm not mistaken, learned Bahuang Liuhe Weiwo Duzungong instead of XWXG anyhow), and Wu Yazi was busy being a cripple. As for Jiumozhi, he himself had never stepped foot in Shaolin in the past. In fact, the ONLY person who, after his entrance in Shaolin, could've possibly used Xiao Wu Xiang Gong in front of him was Li Qiushui. Tonglao used the BHLHWWDZG, Jiumozhi never went to Shaolin, and Wu Yazi was not only a cripple, but also seemed to use BMSG instead.

    Where is Sweeper Monk going to learn about Xiao Wu Xiang Gong from?

    Think about the ramifications of saying he's not related to Xiao Yao Pai.

    That means we have to accept several highly unlikely circumstances.

    1) Li Qiushui visited him in Shaolin.
    2) He had the chance to observe, in depth, her internal energy generation.
    3) She told him the name of their (highly secretive) martial arts style.

    All three had to occur. Likely?

    He could simply glance at Jiumozhi and ascertain the specific type of energy that belonged to a sect NO ONE in the ENTIRE righteous side of the Wulin knew about? Simply by looking at Jiumozhi! He didn't take Jiu Mozhi's pulse to feel the energy streams inside him; he just glanced at the man, and knew. That implies a VERY deep understanding of Xiao Yao martial arts, and considering everything, I find it highly unlikely that anyone with no connection to Xiao Yao would have understanding like that.

    Oh, and ignorance breeds curiosity. If he already knew about XL18Z, what's there to be curious about.

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    Senior Member Yeung Gor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing
    That's far too simplistic.

    Simply the NAME itself, not even the martial arts energy, "Xiao Wu Xiang Gong", is highly, highly secret. Not even all of Tianshan Tonglao's slave leaders could recognize it; in fact, aside from Jiumozhi and the three elders, no one else even practiced it. Li Qiushui was off being an empress, Tianshan Tonglao was chillin' at her mountain (and, if I'm not mistaken, learned Bahuang Liuhe Weiwo Duzungong instead of XWXG anyhow), and Wu Yazi was busy being a cripple. As for Jiumozhi, he himself had never stepped foot in Shaolin in the past. In fact, the ONLY person who, after his entrance in Shaolin, could've possibly used Xiao Wu Xiang Gong in front of him was Li Qiushui. Tonglao used the BHLHWWDZG, Jiumozhi never went to Shaolin, and Wu Yazi was not only a cripple, but also seemed to use BMSG instead.

    Where is Sweeper Monk going to learn about Xiao Wu Xiang Gong from?

    Think about the ramifications of saying he's not related to Xiao Yao Pai.

    That means we have to accept several highly unlikely circumstances.

    1) Li Qiushui visited him in Shaolin.
    2) He had the chance to observe, in depth, her internal energy generation.
    3) She told him the name of their (highly secretive) martial arts style.

    All three had to occur. Likely?

    He could simply glance at Jiumozhi and ascertain the specific type of energy that belonged to a sect NO ONE in the ENTIRE righteous side of the Wulin knew about? Simply by looking at Jiumozhi! He didn't take Jiu Mozhi's pulse to feel the energy streams inside him; he just glanced at the man, and knew. That implies a VERY deep understanding of Xiao Yao martial arts, and considering everything, I find it highly unlikely that anyone with no connection to Xiao Yao would have understanding like that.

    Oh, and ignorance breeds curiosity. If he already knew about XL18Z, what's there to be curious about.
    Remember, those three elders lived a long time as well as Sweeper. Siu Yui Sect pride itself being the best sect, and had collected many martial arts. You suggesting that they never heard of shaolin as one of the world best clan? So they dont want to visit it to witness for themselves the arts shaolin could possess? Many stories by JY have display fighters coming to Shaolin to challenge cuz they think Shaolin has the best skills. I don't see how Siu Yui Sect elders who at their younger days were so into martial arts not visiting shaolin to test their skill or to see what shaolin is about. I believe they came or at least one of them came and exchange stances with a shaolin elder, then they would admire each other's arts and go into discussion. I believe this occured and sweeper was present to witness it. My scenerio might be simplistic, but more realistic. Your scenerio is kinda far-fetch.

    Regarding Dragon Palms, Sweeper knows about the art, but has never experience the power of it. He probably heard so much praise in Dragon Palms' force that it intrique him to test it.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing
    Oh, and ignorance breeds curiosity. If he already knew about XL18Z, what's there to be curious about.
    We had this debate before. Did sweeper let XF hit him because


    1. Out of curiosity about XL18Z
    2. Because he couldn't tap XYS and defend from XF at the same time
    3. Zen/Buddhist crap about eye for an eye etc etc

    ?

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    You are wrong, RWX. By TSTL's own words, Xiao Yao seemed to have a quite close relationship with Shaolin 2 generations before the Xuan ranked monks. She told Xu Zhu that she and his great grand master were equals/friends. It wouldn't be surprising that SM knew about XWXG, especially since he was in the library all the time and they had all sorts of stories there. Remember they even documented the fireworker monk story. Some exchanges/encounters with a school like Xiao Yao with lots of unique skills would be in there somewhere.

    Btw SM was described as around 60 something, IIRC, not all white haired 200 year old monk like in most adaptations. The one in the Mainland 03 version looks about right.

    1. Out of curiosity about XL18Z
    2. Because he couldn't tap XYS and defend from XF at the same time
    3. Zen/Buddhist crap about eye for an eye etc etc
    #2 for sure, from the movements he did before tapping XYS and getting hit by XF.
    Last edited by Candide; 09-10-05 at 06:55 AM.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    RE Candide:

    From what I recall, Tonglao merely said that there had been some sort of encounters long ago with Shaolin's previous masters. It sounded, to me at least, to be more like one of those "one or two meeting" deals. Sorta like how when Fang Sheng told Ren Yingying that he had the fortune to encounter Dong Fang Bu Bai himself in the past. I could be wrong, though, but that's how it felt to me.

    RE Yeung Gor:

    My theory: Sweeper Monk had, originally, some sort of connection with the Xiao Yao Sect.

    Your theory: Sweeper Monk had no connection with the Xiao Yao Sect. Somehow, for some reason, Empress Li Qiushui left Xixia, travelled to Shaolin, displayed her martial arts for Sweeper Monk to see, and then told him the name.

    Either that, or decades ago, as a youth, before he entered Shaolin, he met Li Qiushui (who was married to Wu Yazi then), who showed him her martial arts, and gave him the name as well. She displayed so much of her martial arts to him that, even sixty'ish years afterwards, he was still able to ascertain, from a single glance, that Jiu Mozhi used Xiao Wu Xiang Gong.

    Either THAT, or Sweeper Monk managed to find a detailed description of Xiao Yao martial arts from an encounter decades past so detailed and precise that that lets him identify Jiu Mozhi's internal energy source with a glance.

    Ockham's Razor demands that we take the simplest theory possible. Do you really think that your theory is simpler and more reasonable/possible than the simply the possibility that Sweeper Monk had ties to Xiao Yao?

    Oh, and there didn't seem to be any super-fear of XL18Z. After all, Feng (forgot his name), when fighting Xiao Feng, wasn't phased by XL18Z; it was the Qin Long Shou that scared the crap out of him.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 09-10-05 at 07:02 AM.

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    Senior Member Yeung Gor's Avatar
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    That's even more proof that Sweeper Monk learned it in shaolin, probably in the library. Since Siu Yui Sect have part of Shaolin kungfu, then we know for sure they been to shaolin and perhaps to attain a copy of shaolin kungfu, they might have traded manuals or did battle in shaolin and their arts were display. This event must have been documented in the library.. therefore Sweeper the keeper has read them all. Therefore his knowledge of Siu Yui Sect came from Shaolin. Make alot sense. Your theory still too far-fetch.

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    Senior Member i_fotted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeung Gor
    Why would some of you assume he might not have used Shaolin kungfu? I heard this theory a while back and find that pretty outragious. Sweeper is an enlighten monk, he preach about how to achieve it. There is no doubt in my mind his skill is full shaolin. No one truly understood the foundation of shaolin kungfu like sweeper did.

    I think JY wanted a character like Sweeper that is perhaps probably a sweeper for the temple all his life but despite his low ranks was truly the most enlighten person in that universe. I think that's what make Sweeper Monk great is that he was no one special but yet he is. And by assuming he learn kungfu from elsewhere kinda go against JY's meaning behind that character. That's why I don't subscribe to that theory one bit.
    I agree here. I always felt the purpose of the Sweeper Monk was to show the audience/reader the rich history of martial arts Shaolin has to offer. It was said that all martial arts in teh universe was originated from Shaolin, and SM just happened to be that golden figure that mastered all of Shaolin's art. I think thats the reason he was so godly.

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeung Gor
    That's even more proof that Sweeper Monk learned it in shaolin, probably in the library. Since Siu Yui Sect have part of Shaolin kungfu, then we know for sure they been to shaolin and perhaps to attain a copy of shaolin kungfu, they might have traded manuals or did battle in shaolin and their arts were display. This event must have been documented in the library.. therefore Sweeper the keeper has read them all. Therefore his knowledge of Siu Yui Sect came from Shaolin. Make alot sense. Your theory still too far-fetch.
    You have GOT to be kidding me right?

    My theory has ONE part to it, that he had a connection to Xiao Yao. So far, you have shown NO evidence to the contrary; you have given NO reason why he couldn't have had a relationship from Xiao Yao sect.

    Your theory keeps on changing, from meeting Xiao Yao members in his youth, to seeing his master fight Xiao Yao members, to reading it in the library itself, and each time it changes, it has four to five parts in it. Just look at your latest one!

    Xiao Yao MIGHT have went to Shaolin to obtain Shaolin martial arts.
    If they did, Xiao Yao MIGHT have traded away their manuals or did battle.
    Both the name and the martial arts MIGHT have been written down in a place Sweeper Monk read, although no one else did or seemed to know about it in Shaolin.
    From reading in the library, Sweeper Monk had to obtain a knowledge of Xiao Wu Xiang Gong detailed enough so that he can recognize it at a GLANCE.

    And that's reasonable to you?!

    What evidence do you have at all to support your assertion that it is 'far fetched' for Sweeper Monk to NOT have been in Xiao Yao?

    All you are doing right now is switching from theory to theory, and each time you switch to a different theory, you add the phrase, "And I still think your idea is far fetched."

    The heck?

    Oh, and Candide, incidentally, Tian Shan Tong Lao didn't practice XWXG. Li Qiushui did. So even if they were close friends, I don't think it's too relevant.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    However, TSTL could recognise a tiny trace of XWXG in Xu Zhu which comes from the energy WYZ transfered to him. LQS didn't invent XWXG. The 3 elders knew each other's skills very well, even if they didn't practice them all.

    Ockham's Razor suggests that it would be more likely that SM read about XWXG rather than he himself was a XY disciple or LQS's sister.

    From what I recall, Tonglao merely said that there had been some sort of encounters long ago with Shaolin's previous masters. It sounded, to me at least, to be more like one of those "one or two meeting" deals. Sorta like how when Fang Sheng told Ren Yingying that he had the fortune to encounter Dong Fang Bu Bai himself in the past. I could be wrong, though, but that's how it felt to me.
    What she specifically said to Xu Zhu was that she and Xu Zhu's great grand master were equals, that's why she could call his grand master "little monk". I think it would be a bit more than just a mere encounter.

    The secrecy of the Xiao Yao school only started after the two biatches went their own way and WYZ got done by DCQ, I believe.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Senior Member Yeung Gor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing
    You have GOT to be kidding me right?

    My theory has ONE part to it, that he had a connection to Xiao Yao. So far, you have shown NO evidence to the contrary; you have given NO reason why he couldn't have had a relationship from Xiao Yao sect.

    Your theory keeps on changing, from meeting Xiao Yao members in his youth, to seeing his master fight Xiao Yao members, to reading it in the library itself, and each time it changes, it has four to five parts in it. Just look at your latest one!

    Xiao Yao MIGHT have went to Shaolin to obtain Shaolin martial arts.
    If they did, Xiao Yao MIGHT have traded away their manuals or did battle.
    Both the name and the martial arts MIGHT have been written down in a place Sweeper Monk read, although no one else did or seemed to know about it in Shaolin.
    From reading in the library, Sweeper Monk had to obtain a knowledge of Xiao Wu Xiang Gong detailed enough so that he can recognize it at a GLANCE.

    And that's reasonable to you?!

    What evidence do you have at all to support your assertion that it is 'far fetched' for Sweeper Monk to NOT have been in Xiao Yao?

    All you are doing right now is switching from theory to theory, and each time you switch to a different theory, you add the phrase, "And I still think your idea is far fetched."

    The heck?

    Oh, and Candide, incidentally, Tian Shan Tong Lao didn't practice XWXG. Li Qiushui did. So even if they were close friends, I don't think it's too relevant.
    When a better theory arrises that makes more sense, one with open-mind should adopt. Do you understand my closed-minded friend?

    Your theory is still too far-fetched.

    If you really want to know why my theories makes more sense, again look at the meaning behind the character Sweeper Monk in JY's eyes. Shaolin kungfu is the monther of all kungfu. For one to reach the highest kungfu level, one must understand the foundation of shaolin, one must have a buddha's heart and reach enlightenment. That's why I have no doubt Sweeper uses Shaolin kungfu and not Sui Yui Sect kungfu. Sweeper represents true essense of shaolin.

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    I always assumed the 'equals' comment just meant that she was of the same generation as him. IE, that she's really freakin' old

    And whoah! Where did the sister thing come from? Is that some sort of crazy Son of Light theory?

    TSTL of course could recognize XWXG, because it WAS a martial arts from her sect. They all trained together as children, after all; that she could recognize it isn't very strange. My point is that unless she actually gave a long friggin' lecture to the Shaolin boys, there's no way that they Shaolin monks could have gained an understanding of XWXG from fighting her, or watching her fight, as its a type of internal energy, not a technique.

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    Senior Member Yeung Gor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_fotted
    I agree here. I always felt the purpose of the Sweeper Monk was to show the audience/reader the rich history of martial arts Shaolin has to offer. It was said that all martial arts in teh universe was originated from Shaolin, and SM just happened to be that golden figure that mastered all of Shaolin's art. I think thats the reason he was so godly.
    Glad to see someone see what I see.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    What it suggests is that if Tonglao were hanging around Shaolin in her younger days, then LQS (or WYZ, or their masters/grandmasters) might have done the same too.

    The LQS's sister theory came from some Chinese wuxia forum and someone posted it here ages ago.
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