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Thread: how big is the gap between XYP elders and Xiaofeng?

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    Default how big is the gap between XYP elders and Xiaofeng?

    if any one of the elders fought with Xiaofeng, how will the battle looks?

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    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Ummm, perhaps sort of like the Greats vs GJ at the end of LOCH? I dunno.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

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    Senior Member i_fotted's Avatar
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    I always imagine XY elders vs XF is comparable to Z3F vs ZWJ.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    At best, Xiao Yao Pai elders might be able to beat Xiao Feng.

    At worst, Xiao Feng might be able to beat Xiao Yao Pai elders

    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member The Khan's Avatar
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    If you are talking bout Tian Shan tong lao and co.
    Of course they would kick Xiao Feng.

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    Senior Member qiaofeng's Avatar
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    the elders would probably win, but probably with great difficulty. qiaofeng is no pushover in a fight. if hes in drunken pissed off mode, it may be a double ko

  7. #7
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    We have to keep in mind something about Xiao Feng's martial arts.

    He is very good at overwhelming opponents initially, but once the fight carries on for more than 10 or so stances, then the outcome is not so favorable. Proof can be found in chapter 41: when he attacked Ding Chunqiu from a distance of 13 zhang, Ding Chunqiu never expected the palm was directed at him, and he didn't prepare to counter the attack at all until Xiao Feng was already only 3 or 4 zhang away, at which time he was overwhelmed with the palm wind. The famous remark has it that Ding's arms would have broken if he used only one arm to break--he was holding Ah Zi at the time with his other hand and had no chance to use both arms to defend. But later, Xiao Feng throw a palm attack at Ding once again; this time Ding was prepared, and he actually countered the palm force with both arms, and his arms seemed to be fine. Xiao Feng then overwhelmed the 3 fighters yet again, making them look almost helpless. But this temporary upper hand is not sustainable, and the most important thing to take away is that Xiao Feng realized in the long run he would be no match for the combination of Ding, Murong, and You: 萧峰...虽然占了上风,却已试出这三大高手每一个都身负绝技,三人联手,自己便非其敌, Which explains why he had trouble with Murong and You later.

    Also, isn't it true that Xiao Feng defeated most of the people who "had higher internal energy" than him in roughly 10 stances? This concurs with the other evidence that he excels more in short fights. Key point: Xiao Feng gains temporary upper hand against tough opponent, but it cannot be sustained.

    By the way, the drunken piss mode theory is not sound, because Xiao Feng was pissed, in danger, and had just consumed over 20 pounds of wine when fighting Murong and You, which should be the optimum situation for him, but he didn't prevail. So drinking wine and being angry is not going to help him in a real fight.

    In a duel with the Xiao Yao elders (or with Guo Jing), I am convinced that if they are well prepared, then Xiao Feng has little chance of prevailing, unless he can knock them dead in less than 10 stances.
    Last edited by PJ; 09-13-05 at 03:03 AM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Also, isn't it true that Xiao Feng defeated most of the people who "had higher internal energy" than him in roughly 10 stances?
    While I enjoyed reading your post, I was surprised to see the line above. From where did you read this?

    BTW, DYC was also one of the better-class fighters, and XF averted more than 20 strikes (I believe the exact number was 27) from him in Xiao Jing Hu, while lugging DZC around. Plus Jin Yong stated that XF rarely met a match in his life. And while many opponents surpassed him in terms of inner energies and techniques, they were always defeated by him at the most critical moment (of the fight) by one or half a stance.

    What you've mentioned about DCQ+MRF+YTZ was one fight out of the many that XF had. Hence, I feel that it's unfair to say (simply based on this example) that "He is very good at overwhelming opponents initially, but once the fight carries on for more than 10 or so stances, then the outcome is not so favorable. " Or that "Xiao Feng gains temporary upper hand against tough opponent, but it cannot be sustained."

    The fact that XF thought he would lose to MRF+YTZ in the long run might not factor in as prominently. After all, he thought he would die in Juxian Manor (he would have died if not for his dad, but that was only 'cos he gave up fighting out of remorse). And he also thought both he and Ah Zi would die during the Liao internal strife. But he didn't die in both instances. My point is that there were other occasions in which XF thought he wouldn't make it, but at the crucial moment, he did survive. Plus the affair with DCQ and gang hadn't gone to a critical stage, and Jin Yong did mention that XF (always) beat stronger fighters at the crucial moment.

    I concur that the drunken piss mode theory may not be sound. Actually, my humble opinion is that it's overhyped. But then again, XF was capable of more than 20jin of wine. I believe he drank much more in his initial meeting with his Liao Emperor's/Brother's subordinates. Hence, I feel it's unfair to say that the amount of wine he drank in Shaolin was the "optimum situation for him, but he didn't prevail". Or that "drinking wine and being angry is not going to help him in a real fight".

    Of course, there were several times when XF defeated his opponents in less than 10 stances, such as the duel with Bao Botong+Feng Bo'er in Xingzi Ling, Xuanci and gang in Shaolin, Zhang Tan Qing and Ling Zhong He in Juxian Manor, DCQ in Shaolin, plus others. But I thought that was because he could do so, and not that he couldn't fare as well in longer fights.

    (Sorry, it's hard for me to make my tone tactful when the message is conveyed via written form. But I assure you that I've no intention of offending you.)
    Last edited by miette; 09-13-05 at 04:30 AM.

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Regarding PJ's comment. If XF wasn't carrying DZC and faught back, can DYZ last 10 moves?

    XF defeated a lot of people, but how many actually had higher internal energy than him? YTZ is the only one I cant think of. XYS, JMZ and MRB, he didnt fight, I'd imagine they may be higher or equal to XF in internal.

    When XF raced DY, it kinda gave a indication that XF had quite decent internal energy. (DY had better techniques, and it was post sucking of ppl other than JMZ, he was able to learn and utilise 6MSJ).

  10. #10
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Hi miette

    I was surprised to see the line above. From where did you read this?
    Someone had mentioned that Xiao Feng's stronger opponents were usually defeated in roughly 10 stances. Can anyone confirm if this was mentioned in the novel?

    What you've mentioned about DCQ+MRF+YTZ was one fight out of the many that XF had
    It's the only scenerio in the novel where he met opponents of equal, so I feel it's crucial in considering Xiao's overall martial arts.

    We can probably all agree that he is in fact very good at overwhelming opponents initially. The point I raised about his inability to sustain the momentary advantage is due to Xiao Feng's own thinking at the beginning of the fight, that he would likely suffer defeat at the combination of the 3 men. So even though he kicked off a great start, he himself was aware that this is only momentary--actually if Jin Yong had not included this information, the reader would never doubt Xiao Feng's confidence, so it truly demonstrates there is more than meets the eye and that the momentary advantage is like an illusion. Please note, this is actually not the time during the fight where Murong Fu thought Xiao Feng would lose, but nevertheless Xiao Feng had seen the martial arts of the 3 men and thought to himself that he would likely lose. I might add, this is after all the years of defeating tougher opponents, he still thought that about the 3 men.

    After all, he thought he would die in Juxian Manor.... And he also thought both he and Ah Zi would die during the Liao internal strife. But he didn't die in both instances.
    Those are a bit different. In my example, there is a direct confession by Xiao Feng about his martial arts level compared to his opponents, and he thought he would be inferior to them from the start.

    then again, XF was capable of more than 20jin of wine. I believe he drank much more in his initial meeting with his Liao Emperor's/Brother's subordinates
    Is there any proof that he performs better in combat due to wine consumption though?

    (Sorry, it's hard for me to make my tone tactful when the message is conveyed via written form. But I assure you that I've no intention of offending you.)
    I understand
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Sure, after the initial exchange XF is prolly going to lose the advantage if he had fought DCQ, YTZ, and MRF all together. DCQ had to divert the palms of his from an angle to prevent several injury and yet he still felt pain even by blocking it from the side. From that we can see that XF definitehas something to offer other then s large physique. I sort of think that this may not be enough to say XF does better in the beginining of matches tha would sort of make it like some "XF's special effect". All the opponents that XF fought probably agree that he's a fierce fighter with his skill, power, and instinct. I doubt that he will look less impressive as the battle goes on as I find no reason why he would suddenly lose consistency. Kinda like GJ in the Mongolian camp. He was doing very well with XL18Z+9 Yin, but even he will lose if the fight drag. I will not say that GJ's surface of martial arts is more then what he really got to offer.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    I doubt that he will look less impressive as the battle goes on as I doubt that he will look less impressive as the battle goes on as I find no reason why he would suddenly lose consistency.
    Well, Xiao Feng himself thought this, I didn't make it up. Here's what I said before: even though he kicked off a great start, he himself was aware that this is only momentary, and he would lose in the end. Again this is Xiao Feng thinking to himself AFTER he kicked off a great start. The initial overwhelming is an illusion that makes him appear more powerful than he really is. When the fight really kicks in (after 10 stances), then his true performance reveals; Xiao Feng himself knew it and we also saw it later.

    but even he will lose if the fight drag
    Guo Jing also had to worry about Yang Guo at that time, while Xiao Feng is known to forget about everything when he's in a duel.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member superboy's Avatar
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    Yes, XF would likely lose to the combination of the three elite fighters and his start did give him an advantage that he wouldn't be able to sustain pretty long. Yet, the point is that I doubt this event can really be used as proof that XF is the type that relys on initial advantages of the first ten movies and wouldn't isn't fitted for fights that will drag on. I just can think of why there's a reason for that.

    And for GJ, we know that he will lose the initial advantage of the fight even if YG didn't distract him. It was however, only due to YG that GJ wasn;t able to escape successfully without an injury.
    "I will punish the evil and protect the weak, superboy is in a winning streak. The sky's peak is what I seek"

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Is there any proof that he performs better in combat due to wine consumption though?
    Nah, I hardly think so, which was why I said this drunken mode theory was overhyped. XF was capable of more than 20jin of wine at one go, but to say that he fought better with the intake of alcohol is debatable.

    As for the remainder of your views, I see your point, of course, and I do think you've good reasons for your views. But, well...it's just that I don't agree (also with good reasons ).

    The direct statement about his previous experiences with stronger opponents (always defeating them at the critical moment) carries more weight with me than XF's thoughts in Shaolin. And the fight with MRF+YTZ was miles away from reaching a critical or crucial stage. Hence, I don't see this fight as representative of his XF's abilities.

    There were other occasions when XF thought he would lose, such as Juxian Manor and the Liao rebellion, and he didn't. In Juxian Manor, he also thought he would lose "from the start". I really don't see how those differ from his thoughts in Shaolin. He thought he would lose, and he didn't. And now he also thought he would lose to MRF+YTZ, but he might not, just like how he didn't in Juxian and Liao.

    But as mentioned, I do see your point, merely that I don't agree 'cos I think there are other events in the novel that countered it.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    And for GJ, we know that he will lose the initial advantage of the fight even if YG didn't distract him. It was however, only due to YG that GJ wasn;t able to escape successfully without an injury.
    Guo Jing himself thought he was not going to hold off the 3 warriors eventually, but we have to take into consideration that 1) Guo Jing is more conservative than Xiao Feng. In my opinion Guo Jing is more likely to overestimate the danger than the confident and arrogant Xiao Feng. 2) Guo Jing was in combat to "rescue" Yang Guo, so he always had another person to worry about. 3) Guo Jing's opponent all wielded weapons.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member qiaofeng's Avatar
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    Qiaofeng is confident but hes not over confident. he never underestimates his opponents or overestimates himself. in ju xian manor he thought that hes screwed cus of their overwhelming numbers. + his arrogance is not unfounded. he never lost a fight even aginst stronger oppoents. its more like he was aware of his ablilities. u wouldnt call albert einstein arrogant for thinking that hes smart would u?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Xiao Feng throw a palm attack at Ding once again; this time Ding was prepared, and he actually countered the palm force with both arms, and his arms seemed to be fine.
    Chapter 41
    …丁春秋不敢正面直攖其鋒,右掌斜斜揮出,也蕭峰掌力的偏勢一觸,但覺右臂酸麻,胸中氣息登時沉濁,當即乘 勢縱出三丈之外,…
    …Ding Chunqiu wasn’t brave enough to meet this attack head on so released his right palm out against the oncoming strike indirectly (his palm headed sideways as opposed to in front). As soon as he made slight contact with Xiao Feng’s force, he felt tingling pain on his right arm and was instantly constricted in his breathing from his chest. He immediately used his power to leap back just over 30 feet…
    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Also, isn't it true that Xiao Feng defeated most of the people who "had higher internal energy" than him in roughly 10 stances?
    Chapter 24
    他生平罕逢敵手,許多強敵內力比他深厚,招數比他巧妙,但一到交手,總是在最要緊的關頭,以一招半式之差而 敗了下來…
    In all his single lifetime, he has rarely met a true rival. A great deal of his formidable foes had more profound internal forces, and more ingenious techniques compared to him. But when they finally came to grips with each other; it was always the case of them losing from the slight difference of one stance or half a pattern as they arrived at the critical juncture…
    Note: Some have argued that strong internal forces and clever moves don’t necessary amount to the entire class of martial arts on a whole. E.g. Internal force + Techniques =\ (doesn’t equal) Martial Arts.

    They theorised that such people like Jueyuan (HSDS – monk with high internal force but lack of techniques) and Linghu Chong (XAJH – unsubstantial internal force but variety of techniques) would be appropriately suited to these descriptions. But I don’t see any feasibility in their assumption, esp. when Jin Yong explicitly referred them as powerful foes. LHC can be maintained as a strong fighter, but would one like Jueyuan fit into the mould?

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    This concurs with the other evidence that he excels more in short fights.
    Chapter 21

    …喬峰卻是大有大鬥,小有小打…
    …Long battles had been in abundance to Qiao Feng’s name; he was less of a participant in skirmishes…
    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    By the way, the drunken piss mode theory is not sound, because Xiao Feng was pissed, in danger, and had just consumed over 20 pounds of wine when fighting Murong and You, which should be the optimum situation for him, but he didn't prevail.
    Chapter 19
    …殊不知喬峰卻是多一分酒意,增一分精神力氣…
    …Little had imagined that the more tipsy feeling Qiao Feng got from the wine, the more (consciousness and internal strength = vigour) he gains from it…
    This largely implied that if he brought stocks of wine inside a lorry with him in a fight, not even the Sweeper Monk could handle him. j/k

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    In my opinion Guo Jing is more likely to overestimate the danger than the confident and arrogant Xiao Feng.
    Hehe, I think it’s Hu Jun’s portrayal in the Mainland adaptation, which unquestionably ruined the calculative character of Xiao Feng. Boy, did he reek with a cocky air.
    Last edited by Hanky Panky; 09-14-05 at 06:45 PM.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    I am aware of this. I am just pointing out that he could concentrate more on the actual combat than Guo Jing in my example. While it is stated that he was never beaten by tougher opponents, I believe it is partly due to the "status" of the opponents in some way. Like it or not, the protagonist in every novel gets some special priviledges that earn our admiration, for example although the villains can be very good, they are not given the same vivid martial arts description that makes us revere the heroes. Also, have you noticed that all the protagonists are the best in their age group? If Guo Jing was the villain and Ni Moxing the hero, Jin Yong would have toned down Guo Jing's talent and inflated Ni Moxing's. The protagonists generally possess more special talent that enable them to outperform the normal fighters. It's part of the reality of writing that should not be overlooked.

    Therefore, although Xiao Feng has never tasted defeat, I think it's safe to say he has never defeated a fighter of Guo Jing or Yang Guo's calibre. The protagonists all (except maybe Wuji) have more to offer than the other folks even when their martial arts are comparable.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    To Hanky: when I said Xiao Feng throw a palm attack at Ding once again; this time Ding was prepared, and he actually countered the palm force with both arms, and his arms seemed to be fine, I was referring to later in the chapter: 萧峰...一声长啸,说道:“慕容公子、庄帮主、丁老怪,你们便三位齐上,萧某何惧?” 呼的一掌,向丁春秋猛击过去。 丁春秋领教过他掌力的厉害,双掌齐出,全力抵御。

    About defeating tougher opponents all in 10 stances, since no one has confirmed this, I will assume it was not stated in the novel and it will not be argued again.

    …喬峰卻是大有大鬥,小有小打…
    …Long battles had been in abundance to Qiao Feng’s name; he was less of a participant in skirmishes…
    I think you've misinterpreted that line. The passage was describing the narrow space on the boat holding Xiao Feng, Grandma Tan, and Zhao Qiansun, and that Xiao Feng was able to take advantage of the narrow space. It has nothing to do with length of the battle. You've only quoted part of the message. The entire sentence should have the following meaning

    船舱中地方狭窄,施展不开手脚,乔峰却是大有大斗,小有小打,擒拿手和短打近攻的功夫,在不到一丈见方的船 舱中使得灵动之极。

    "The space within the boat is narrow; one would not be able to stretch his limbs. Since Qiao Feng thrives in both large-scale and small-scale locations, he was able to exercise his short range skills in less than 10 square feet of space."

    …殊不知喬峰卻是多一分酒意,增一分精神力氣…
    Sounds good to me. Thanks for that. However, I do believe while the alcohol gives him more strength, it also makes him more wreckless, which may not be helpful with a highly measured opponent.
    Last edited by PJ; 09-14-05 at 08:03 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    It's part of the reality of writing that should not be overlooked.
    Speaking of “status”, some believe (including poster Yeung Gwoh) that Jin Yong wanted there to be equilibrium between the 5 Greats of ROCH. In that, all deserved respect as they had reached the peak boundary of martial arts "絕頂", where few would come across in their lifetime. You can almost perceive quite clearly his ideology if you’ve read LOCH and ROCH, as you can tell that he’s giving us little case to argue as to who’s better using factual evidence and therefore only makes us resort to theories and speculations.

    What has been the reason for GJ and ZBT not using L/R Technique against West Poison and East Heretic etc, once they had become experts of the same class? Assuming GJ was already equal to the Greats without L/R Technique, why didn’t he use it against Ouyang Feng in the early parts? These are the questions raised.

    I believe it’s probably down to the writer’s persistent policy of a Doctrine of the Mean. And those ‘what ifs’ shouldn’t be carried out, as he would’ve violated his ‘equilibrium’ policy.

    So consequently, the writer thought of a way of ‘resolving’ this matter and that’s by preventing ZBT and GJ using L/R technique when they come up against a Great.

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