Guo Jing/Yang Guo/Zhang Wuji

[Ren Wo Xing]

I was just reading Temujin's thread on Jinyong 'watering down' Jiu Yin in order to make Yang Guo seem more powerful, and I agreed with it; logically speaking, Guo Jing should be WAY above the Greats by that time. Why wasn't he?

Then I got to thinking about the novels, and what they and the characters inside represent.

Guo Jing is obviously a Confucian hero. Very strict, very moral, very upstanding, and very orthodox. The way he learns martial arts is very 'orthodox' as well; he found an extremely orthodox martial arts manuscript, written by an Imperial officer (Huang Shang) who was fighting to rid the land of 'deviant' elements and maintain the Emperor's rule; as close to Confucian martial arts as Confucianism can get.

Yang Guo, in turn, is a very Daoist hero. Rather than conforming to societal norms, he acts as his nature sees fit; unrestrained, uncontrolled, uncontrollable, he truly is Xi Kuang. Even the way he learns martial arts has strong Daoist overtones; eating magical snake gallbladders, being taught by a supremely intelligent condor, and learning the Way of the sword through the writings of a long dead master, on a remote mountain retreat.

Zhang Wuji, in turn, is a Buddhist hero. Forgiveness, clemency, kindness, compassion, those are his keys; even as a child, when his parents committed suicide, even the benevolent Zhang Sanfeng promised to teach Wuji martial arts to avenge his parents, but Wuji "didn't want to kill anyone, (he) just wanted his parents back!" The Jiuyang Shengong he learned, as well, was written by a Buddhist, and was a long lost Shaolin treasure.

Then it hit me. Throughout Chinese history, one of the main points was the "harmony" of the Three Ways; Confucianism, Daoism, Buddhism. Each had their own sphere of influence, and their own use; neither is superior to the other, nor any is inferior to the other. The three are equals.

Perhaps this is why Yang Guo/Guo Jing/Zhang Wuji's relative martial arts levels are so ambiguous in this trilogy; Jinyong intentionally wrote them ambiguously, so that the three would seem the same. In this way, he did not put any of the three Ways which the three Hero's represented over each other; he wrote three wonderful stories, about martial arts being expressed in the three various Ways, making clear that he did not believe Daoism, Buddhism, or Confucianism to be superior to each other.

This, then, is the reason that Yang Guo=Guo Jing=Zhang Wuji, even if purely due to martial arts reasons/storyline reasons, one would imagine differently. Because no one Way is superior to the other two Ways, and so no one of those three fighters, is or can be superior to the other two.

[wkeej]

IYang Guo, in turn, is a very Daoist hero. Rather than conforming to societal norms, he acts as his nature sees fit; unrestrained, uncontrolled, uncontrollable, he truly is Xi Kuang. Even the way he learns martial arts has strong Daoist overtones; eating magical snake gallbladders, being taught by a supremely intelligent condor, and learning the Way of the sword through the writings of a long dead master, on a remote mountain retreat.

you mean taoist? having bought up in a taoist family and turned buddhist, i am not sure about this aspect about Yang Guo. What you have mentioned is one aspect - the ancestral/mythical portion. taoism will encompass more and like buddhism stresses harmony and a proper way of life. maybe i will term YG as a non-conformist hero. as to which religion promotes this, i am sorry that i am not sure.

[Candide]

Well said, I've always thought the same, although YG isn't that Taoist, IMO. When I read wuxia these days, I tend to overlook the martial art stuff (like who's more powerful and all that bickering) but focus on the characters and what they represent. Of their martial arts, I focus on why they were meant to learn them.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Well, as the saying goes, "道可道, 非常道."

He's not a perfect Taoist example...but there's very little that would be

[Temujin]

Definitely a more indepth way of analyzing the trilogy as a whole and an interesting way to explore the philosophical aspect and the relationship among the three main heroes in each novel.

Though I really think Yang Guo representing Taoism is a bit of a strech, due to his rebellious and unorthodox nature

[Dennis Chen]

Daoism is sort of a rebellion. There's definitely a rejection of man made society - and it's rules and norms - for the realism of the natural world. Which is what I think Yang Guo does. What is more natural than 2 people falling in love? It's societies rules (Confucianism) that continued to pull apart Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu. They weren't blood related, their status as teacher and student - the thing that made it wrong for them to love one another - was in itself a construct of society. And Yang Guo rejects it, he rejects the human values constructed by man that actually serves to hinder the natural world.

Yang Guo is definitely a Daoist hero.

[wkeej]

Daoism is sort of a rebellion. There's definitely a rejection of man made society for the realism of nature.

care to explain more? thks in advance.

[Candide]

It's societies rules (Confucianism) that continued to pull apart Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu.

I think it's more like XLN decided to run away from him whenever the weather changed. Any couple would get a fair bit of negative comments from society. It's up to them to deal with it. It only affected YG and XLN because deep down, they thought that it was not very kosher and were still trying to get over themselves (which they finally did). If they were truly comfortable with who they were, they wouldn't give a stuff. Nobody was really forcing them aparts. Of course their relationship wasn't very kindly accepted by everyone, but apart from throwing negative comments left right and centre, they did nothing.

Look at GJ and HR in LOCH. Hardly anyone approved of their relationship. HQG was their best supporter, and even he frequently commented on how mismatched they were in terms of intelligence. Imagine being a man in 12th century who kept being told by everyone he met that he was so dumb and not worthy of the girl he loved, that their match was like "flower on cow's dung". Then you had HYS, the girl's father, who did not like him at all and would rather kill him out of spite, and on the other side, Gongnam freaks (who were like GJ's parents) hated HR and HYS. GJ and HR, who could be considered YG's family, did not hate XLN. They actually quite liked her as a person. They just didn't approve their relationship (at the beginning at least).

I reckon YG had it easy. He just whinged too much.

[Ren Wo Xing]

RE Wkeej:

Daoism is about the rejection of the 'unnatural' society constructed by men, to live in harmony with nature, and according to one's nature. Society is naturally restrictive and made with many artificial rules; Daoism discards those rules. That's why so many Daoist sages and Immortals retreat to the wilderness. Daoism is a rejection of society and societal norms. So Yang Guo really does fit quite well. True Daoism is not really 'orthodox'; it's unorthodox in comparison to Confucian and societal norms.

[Candide]

Now I know why YG's descendants in HSDS were so weird. Weird taste of fashion and music, albino skin, stupidly late entrance, confusing bullshit poems, failing mission terribly but so quick in shifting responsibilities to someone else... That's the result of unorthodox Taoist life + inbreeding, right?

[wkeej]

Daoism is about the rejection of the 'unnatural' society constructed by men, to live in harmony with nature, and according to one's nature. Society is naturally restrictive and made with many artificial rules; Daoism discards those rules. That's why so many Daoist sages and Immortals retreat to the wilderness. Daoism is a rejection of society and societal norms. So Yang Guo really does fit quite well. True Daoism is not really 'orthodox'; it's unorthodox in comparison to Confucian and societal norms.

well said, you should have used it to represent yg instead of all the magic stones, big bird, which may not be very taoistic.

[Dennis Chen]

Now I know why YG's descendants in HSDS were so weird. Weird taste of fashion and music, albino skin, stupidly late entrance, confusing bullshit poems, failing mission terribly but so quick in shifting responsibilities to someone else... That's the result of unorthodox Taoist life + inbreeding, right?

Yeah, but she could kick everyone's butt, even Zhang Sanfeng's.

[Candide]

Yeah, but she could kick everyone's butt, even Zhang Sanfeng's.

Baseless speculation.

[PJ]

Great analysis/ It opened my eyes further about the heroes.

Candide: do you have any preference for the philosophy of Taoism, Confucianism, or Buddhism?

[Candide]

I like to take the best parts out of them and merge them together.

[Ken Cheng]

Taoism seeks balance...the yin and the yang in harmony. If Yeung Gor represents a Taoist figure, did he achieve this balance? He seemed to be a man of extremes.

[wkeej]

Taoism seeks balance...the yin and the yang in harmony. If Yeung Gor represents a Taoist figure, did he achieve this balance? He seemed to be a man of extremes.

could we view YG as a man of extreme or what i call non-conformist from the eyes of confucianism? taoism stresses going with the flow. since the flow is for him to love an older non-virgin, he is quite taoistic in this aspect.

[Wu Xing]

JY originally creates this trilogy not just out of the air but to convey some of his idea. I will try to explain carefully but also briefly (I'll try my best). What I write in the following doesn't come from my own idea but most of the idea I've read from a book in Thai. This book (in Thai language) are the analysis of JY works based on many sources including JY himself. I have to tell you that I've read this book very long time ago, about 11-13 years ago, forget the exact time. So, I might forget some of the details...so please forgive me.

1. LOCH

The original idea of LOCH probably come from the situation at that time the mainland China got a pressure from foreigner especially from western world. The main reason is probably because of communism (I'm not totally sure about the true reason...I forget...doesn't have book with me right now). For example, US at that time support Taiwan over mainland China. JY live in Hong Kong. He want to make a story out of 2 kids who will be raised from the foreign country. Of course, one is GJ and another one is YK (see the meaning of their name...it is about country). Both of them got a good care from both country (YK is a prince and GJ is also a princess's fiance).

JY make both foriegn country (eventually for Mongol case) try to take over China. He make one of them help his foriegn country attack China (i.e., YK) and another one protect China (i.e., GJ). This is a message JY want to send to his readers...don't be like YK, be like GJ. He want to tell the Chinese oversea that don't try to help the foreign country attack China. (the author of the book I read comment that Chinese-Thai people is more like YK than GJ )

If I remember correctly, JY want to make GJ as a true/pure hero and he base GJ character on one of the famous general, Yueh Fei (in Song dynasty). JY also use the Yueh Fei story in the opening of LOCH...see something. When he was young, Yueh Fei's mom always teach him to love and protect his country (i.e., China). Don't you think it is similar to the way GJ's mom always teach GJ? GJ is originally designed as a hero...nothing else (if I remember correctly)...his character doesn't mean to be multi-dimension. That is why GJ character is pretty flat.

Therefore, the theme of LOCH is in fact fighting/protecting the country (China).

(to be continued below...)

[wkeej]

(the author of the book I read comment that Chinese-Thai people is more like YK than GJ )

isn't thailand often admired because of its non-war involvement over the years? if it is for the sake of its own people, at times, a country has to make unwelcome moves. thai people is not like YK. YK is more an unfilial person to me. the thais, being very buddhistic, are not unfilial.

[Wu Xing]

2. ROCH

The original idea of ROCH is about LOVE. The time that JY wrote this novel is the time that there is a change in the society. The old tradition was challenged and the youth (as rebellion) tried to find the way of their life/value out of the old tradition. This trend happen over the world (especially in US, like hippie). Many philosophy of freedom was read/studied/published during this era to support their idea but it "might not be interpreted correctly by them", for example, the philosophy/thought/teaching of Krishnamurti (see http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/index.p...elcome&nid=103) and Taoism/Daoism. Note that only Dao De Jing/Tao Te Ching (one of the key book and was sometimes said to be the most important or the first book of Taoism) was translated in many languages. Each language has so many translated version. In Thai, there are more than (since I don't know all of them) 6 translated versions within the same set of time. Honestly, I read Tao Te Ching in Thai about 4-5 versions and one of them was translated from one of the "rebellion" in the hippie time. This version contains a very nice word and, while you reading, it make me feel like I don't want to be in tradition or tie with the rule of society. Nevertheless, this translation is very biased thru the translator's own idea. This is in fact one of the not-so-good translation I've read.

Honestly, Tao Te Ching is very deep. It doesn't against the society. It just point out the "true face" of society. Tao Te Ching basically, in my opinion, show the principle of this world (= the true face of this world) and provide you what it means by being harmony with the principle of this world (probably not much of "how to" at least in systematic way). From my opinion, Taoism doesn't ask you to live outside the society or have to be in "absolutely" nature or hide in the mountain. One of Taoism famous statement is about "living in the world/society but not attached to the world/society" (I'm not sure that I take this statement from Zen but Tao has the same idea). Tao see the important of the society but they also know why it is important. In Tao Te Ching's a part of Chapter 2 (in typical way of orgainizing the book), there is the following statement,

Creating, yet not possessing,
Working, yet not taking credit.
Work is done, then forgotten.
Therefore it lasts forever.

Also, in a part of Chapter 9,

Claim wealth and titles, and disaster will follow.
Retire when the work is done.
This is the way of heaven.

As you see, the Taoist sage will work and will create but he/she is not attached with his creation/work. He is a free people but doesn't mean that he have to live in the mountain/cave. Tao Te Ching is very deep. Many people fall into their short coming, for example, the word "no action" doesn't need to mean the same "no action" in the reader mind...it's surely doesn't mean don't do anything (for the society)...as in the opening statement in Tao Te Ching (Chapter 1, 1st sentence) "The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name.". Therefore, "no action" is just a word refering to something which cannot be described as a word (name). It requires a certain level of study and "practice"...it is not mean to easily understand by only brain...please don't fall into the short coming. And, from Tao perspective, please don't believe or trust anything I say here blindly as well (same true for Buddhism).

Sorry to make you lose the topic. In ROCH, JY did create the story based on the idea of youth at that time, i.e., break the tradition, rebellion, etc. The theme that he choose is about love. Just count how many people in ROCH effect by love...how many people got heart broken or got killed thru so called "love". The famous statement of ROCH was made by LMC (XLN's older kung fu sister), i.e., "what is love?....". And the opening scene of ROCH is about the person who got heart broken in love too. YG/XLN represents the young rebellion and GJ/HR represents the old tradition people. Unfortunately, JY cannot truely solve this problem (stated in the book I read) and he has to go for the compromised way between the old and the young at the end of ROCH...this is the reason why YG/XLN has to leave the tradition world. HOWEVER, it was also said that JY did achieve the unsolvable problem in XAJH through LHC (LHC was against the tradition too). And, this is also "a part" that make XAJH special.

(to be continued below...)