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Thread: "The Buddhist Palm" - comparison with Hong Lung 18 Palms

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temujin
    I have always been a believer than DFBB is on a league of his own, perhaps not as powerful and mighty as SM & SPT, but judging from how easily and effortlessly DFBB dismantled the four pugilists, DFBB should be approximately at the same league of WYZ/TSTL/LSQ, if not slightly better.

    But Alas, no one here think that way, mostly due to the deteriotion theory.
    One of the BIGGEST points in Deterioration Theory is that it only affects the average level of martial arts. Individuals are always an exception. It's just that over the years everyone has been so readily buying into that theory that they mix it all up and just assume any fighter from earlier eras is automatically better than fighters from later eras.

    I don't know if I would go as far as saying DFBB was above the XiaoYao elders though ... he won that fight over LHC and RWX simply because his speed was way too fast. It's hard to draw a parallel. LHC was doing better than RWX but we know that RWX can easily knock LHC unconscious by channeling his internal energy through a shout (which he did in Plum Manor).

    The best fighters from XAJH seem to all negate each other in one way or another because on the one hand you have LHC, whose technique is leagues above everyone else. Then you have RWX and Abbot FZ whose internal energy were leagues above everyone else. Then you have DFBB and the KHBD crew whose qinggong were leagues above everyone else. It's hard really to say that DFBB was THAT much better than LHC, RWX, XWT, etc. They simply had no answer for his specialty, which was qinggong.
    Last edited by bliss; 09-14-05 at 05:07 PM.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    One of the BIGGEST points in Deterioration Theory is that it only affects the average level of martial arts. Individuals are always an exception. It's just that over the years everyone has been so readily buying into that theory that they mix it all up and just assume any fighter from earlier eras is automatically better than fighters from later eras.
    Would you say then that GJ=ZWJ. But Quanzhen Masters>Xiao Yao Er Xian?

  3. #23
    Senior Member Temujin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    I don't know if I would go as far as saying DFBB was above the XiaoYao elders though ... he won that fight over LHC and RWX simply because his speed was way too fast. It's hard to draw a parallel. LHC was doing better than RWX but we know that RWX can easily knock LHC unconscious by channeling his internal energy through a shout (which he did in Plum Manor).

    The best fighters from XAJH seem to all negate each other in one way or another because on the one hand you have LHC, whose technique is leagues above everyone else. Then you have RWX and Abbot FZ whose internal energy were leagues above everyone else. Then you have DFBB and the KHBD crew whose qinggong were leagues above everyone else. It's hard really to say that DFBB was THAT much better than LHC, RWX, XWT, etc. They simply had no answer for his specialty, which was qinggong.
    I agree. The fight description was too brief to really gauge DFBB's actual power & skills, but nevertheless highly impressive. I certainly will put DFBB on par with GJ, YG, ZWJ and ZBT at worst. I think he surpassed the Greats though.
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    DFBB's internal energy had to be very high though; you don't block sword-strokes with a needle, and have the needle show no signs of damage, if it weren't.

    Also, from your own translation, bliss,

    "Ren Woxing, Xiang Wentian, and Lingwu Chong were all panting and shouting in frustration and and anger. All three of their weapons were infused with their internal energy, winds of force rocked through the room. Yet not even a peep escaped from Dongfang Bubai."

    Incidentally, in that battle, it's implied that Ren Woxing is better than LHC. After all, when it was the three of them against DFBB, it was first Xiang Wentian (the weakest) who was struck, followed almost immediately by LHC; it wasn't until several more strokes had passed before RWX was struck as well. How did you get that LHC did better than RWX?
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 09-14-05 at 05:25 PM.

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    What do your guys think if we put DFBB vs YD (Reverend Yi Deng- South Emperor)?

    Let assume that DFBB use needle as his weapon (no sword).

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    Senior Member qiaofeng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Temujin
    I agree. The fight description was too brief to really gauge DFBB's actual power & skills, but nevertheless highly impressive. I certainly will put DFBB on par with GJ, YG, ZWJ and ZBT at worst. I think he surpassed the Greats though.
    i always thought of dongfang bubai as a beefed up version of xiaolongnu, since theyre both very fast. dongfang has stronger inner energy thou, but i dont think his inner energy level can be compared with the greats

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    Default LHC adn RWX

    LHC probably in the end had the best kung fu. RWX and his master died. Therefore, leaving only that monk that could compare with him, and maybe, but not likely, the Tai Chi dude, but I would say no because he doesn't know Tai Chi chuan. The Monk in the end was either ranked 1st or 2nd in terms of internal energy. LHC was already strong, but he absorbed his some of his master's internal, making his already ranked top 3 in world internal energy even stronger. He then learned YJJ, which of course means a even larger mass of internal energy. So LHC at worst at the end, has at least ranked #2 internal energy, and maybe possibly even surpassed the monk, though it's never said. But then again, LHC has that Absorbing Star Stance. Btw, I thought I read somewhere that Absorbing Star Stance was a somewhat combined version of Bei Min Sun Gong and Hua Gong Da Fa. Am I wrong?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing
    DFBB's internal energy had to be very high though; you don't block sword-strokes with a needle, and have the needle show no signs of damage, if it weren't.

    Also, from your own translation, bliss,

    "Ren Woxing, Xiang Wentian, and Lingwu Chong were all panting and shouting in frustration and and anger. All three of their weapons were infused with their internal energy, winds of force rocked through the room. Yet not even a peep escaped from Dongfang Bubai."

    Incidentally, in that battle, it's implied that Ren Woxing is better than LHC. After all, when it was the three of them against DFBB, it was first Xiang Wentian (the weakest) who was struck, followed almost immediately by LHC; it wasn't until several more strokes had passed before RWX was struck as well. How did you get that LHC did better than RWX?
    Hmm ... I didn't think they were panting and shouting because of tiredness, seemed more like out of frustration and anger. But you're right, Dongfang Bubai could very well be the strongest in terms of internal energy as well. I was just focusing on the point that it was his qinggong that was besting the 3 of them, not necessarily his internal energy. It didn't read the same as when Xu Zhu would just let people hit him and bounce off.

    I got the impression that LHC was doing better than RWX in that particular fight strictly because some of LHC's moves actually forced DFBB to defend. Nothing much was said about RWX during that fight so it can go either way. It just seemed that technique-wise, LHC could beat DFBB if only his qinggong were fast enough. I'm not sure the same holds true for RWX, so that's why I think LHC did better than RWX.

    I'm not sure that you can base their strength on who cried out first. DFBB could pretty much make all three of them his b-itches so it seemed to me like it was whoever DFBB felt like attacking first.
    Last edited by bliss; 09-14-05 at 07:03 PM.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Xing
    What do your guys think if we put DFBB vs YD (Reverend Yi Deng- South Emperor)?

    Let assume that DFBB use needle as his weapon (no sword).
    I ask this question since I'm very impressed when I read LOCH in the part that YD use his finger skill cure HR...I don't know if your guys still remember it. In this scene, YD seems to be very fast with his finger skill.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    This is a pretty weak point ... you can't really argue AGAINST the storyline to use that as an example. Pixie Jianfa had just shaken the martial arts world, so everyone was after that. Anyway, how do you know there weren't many people seeking it? There was no indication for or against either way.
    You can't really argue against what's explicitely mentioned either. in DGSD, YJJ's reputation is almost unrivaled, that's why great men like The Murong family and Jiumozhi are after it. How is YJJ's reputation in XAJH?

    Only 2 people learned it ... Abbot Fang Zheng and Linghu Chong.
    You are betting on Fang Zheng being more enlightened than any of the Shaolin monks in DGSD. I find this highly unlikely.

    Along the same lines, Linghu Chong didn't even KNOW it was Yijinjing when he learned it. He thought it was some ordinary internal energy methods given to him by Feng Qingyang. That way, he didn't have that obsessive need to learn and master it, thus allowing him to succeed without hitches. This follows along the same philosophies that Sweeper preached.
    I didn't know this. Thank you for letting me know.

    You Tanzhi became extremely powerful from YJJ BECAUSE of the mixing with the ice poison. It was a freak accident that accelerated him tremendously, like ZWJ with the bag.
    About YJJ mixing with ice poison: my impression would be the internal energy still came from YJJ, right? The ice poison should have no internal energy. I am not sure what role the ice poison played.

    Inferior in that it couldn't really control the absorbed qi correctly. It still allowed the user to completely absorb his victim's internal energy. But still, YJJ being so pure and powerful that it could resist qi absorption? Still pretty impressive.
    Even with the Northern Ocean, one cannot absorb people with higher energy. The fact that Ren Woxing's Xixin Dafa does not work with Fangzheng just means Fangzheng's internal energy is as abundant or more abundant. I don't find this exceptionally impressive. Also according to Laviathan, the power aquired by Xixing Dafa is of lesser quality than those obtained by orthodox qigong training. Your own internal power can automatically protect you from harm, but absorbed power must be generated.
    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    So what if 1000 arrows are targetted at our wuxia hero? LHC's missile breaking stance can deflect thousands of projectiles in 1 stance and send them back to the enemy. The more arrows the better!

  11. #31
    Senior Member Temujin's Avatar
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    Here are some quotes from Bliss' translation

    The needle in Dongfang Bubai's hand was no longer than an inch, light enough to be blown away by the wind, light enough to float on water, yet he was able to parry Lingwu Chong's sword head-on with it. Dongfang Bubai's martial arts level was definitely beyond comprehension. Lingwu Chong was startled immensely, he knew that today he had run into a foe of unimaginable power.

    and later (already quoted above)

    Dongfang Bubai's movements became faster and faster, his body spun around in a pink blur all over the room. Ren Woxing, Xiang Wentian, and Lingwu Chong were all panting and shouting in frustration and and anger. All three of their weapons were infused with their internal energy, winds of force rocked through the room. Yet not even a peep escaped from Dongfang Bubai.

    This proves that DFBB has tremendous internal energy as well as unmatched lightness of kungfu, not to mention the sunflower script gave her one of the most formidable sword arts, it's just too bad that DongFang only had a needle at his disposal. Had he held a sword, the 4 pugilists would had been 4 shishkabobs.
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  12. #32
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    You can't really argue against what's explicitely mentioned either. in DGSD, YJJ's reputation is almost unrivaled, that's why great men like The Murong family and Jiumozhi are after it. How is YJJ's reputation in XAJH?
    Good enough that even though after hearing the Doctor couldn't heal LHC, the Plum Manor residents still thought that it could heal LHC.


    You are betting on Fang Zheng being more enlightened than any of the Shaolin monks in DGSD. I find this highly unlikely.
    Why's that? Aside from Sweeps, I find FZ (and the Shaolin monks in XAJH in general) to be much more enlightened and open compared to the DGSD monks who cared far too much about face.


    About YJJ mixing with ice poison: my impression would be the internal energy still came from YJJ, right? The ice poison should have no internal energy. I am not sure what role the ice poison played.
    It was stated that it was the meld of the extreme orthodox (YJJ) and heterodox (Poison) that formed the basis of the extreme power beyond just one alone.


    Even with the Northern Ocean, one cannot absorb people with higher energy. The fact that Ren Woxing's Xixin Dafa does not work with Fangzheng just means Fangzheng's internal energy is as abundant or more abundant. I don't find this exceptionally impressive. Also according to Laviathan, the power aquired by Xixing Dafa is of lesser quality than those obtained by orthodox qigong training. Your own internal power can automatically protect you from harm, but absorbed power must be generated.
    LHC absorbed a lot of people with more internal energy that him...
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 09-14-05 at 09:08 PM.

  13. #33
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    I would say that nearly out of the entirety of JY's stories about Shaolin, Fang Sheng and Fang Zhen were probably the two most benevolent head monks, in the way he portrayed them. Definitely way better Buddhists than the ones in TLBB; their abbot Xuanci was a hypocrite who seduced Ye Erniang (who later became No Evil Left Undone "Wu E Bu Zuo" of the Four Evils), and the others, judging from their treatment of Xiao Feng, as well as their own performances, seemed to be a highly egotistical, face-loving lot.

    For example, when Fang Zhen heard that a large force of heterodox fighters were marching on Shaolin, he let them occupy the temple rather than fight, for fear of excessive bloodshed; although he was worried they would damage the temple (being led by LHC, they didn't), he felt that it was better for the temple to be damaged, than a huge bloodbath occur in the Wulin.

    Do you really think Xuanci would do something like that?

  14. #34
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    Adding to what ChronoReverse mentioned, yes I do think Fang Zheng was way more enlightened than those monks in DGSD (besides Sweeper). I would go so far as to say in terms of Buddhism, he was 2nd to Sweeper in Enlightenment in the entire Jin Yong Canon.

    He sincerely had nothing but the well-being of the world in his mind. He was humble, cared little about face, and was able to look passed worldly affairs and emotions at the bigger picture. He let LHC and that big gang secretly escape Shaolin when the Five Peaks had them trapped there even though it meant Shaolin's reputation would be stained because a band of people just came and went like it was nothing.

    He was able to look passed superficial notions of "good" and "evil" enough to take in Linghu Chong as a student even after Yue Buqun publicly denounced Linghu Chong as evil and collaborating with the Demon Sect. He was also able to see that Ren Yingying was good at heart even though she was the Sacred Maiden of the Demon Sect, and he tried his best to reform her and point her in the right direction.

    I sincerely think Murong family and Jiumorzhi went after YJJ and 6MSJ so die-hard because they were two of the missing martial arts in the Xiao Yao library. Madame Wang brought that library with her to Guso and subsequently, Murong Bo had access to it. He learned that the three missing martial arts were Shaolin's Yijinjing, Dali's 6 Mai Shen Jian, and Beggar Union's 18 Subduing Dragon Palms and the Dog Beating Stick. Murong Bo and Jiumorzhi were good friends, they conversed about martial arts, and Jiumorzhi got the idea that it would be easiest to steal 6MSJ and YJJ since they existed in manual form, while Beggar Union's special skills were probably only passed by mouth from Leader to Leader. Besides Murong family and Jiumorzhi, who else went after YJJ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing
    I would say that nearly out of the entirety of JY's stories about Shaolin, Fang Sheng and Fang Zhen were probably the two most benevolent head monks, in the way he portrayed them. Definitely way better Buddhists than the ones in TLBB; their abbot Xuanci was a hypocrite who seduced Ye Erniang (who later became No Evil Left Undone "Wu E Bu Zuo" of the Four Evils), and the others, judging from their treatment of Xiao Feng, as well as their own performances, seemed to be a highly egotistical, face-loving lot.

    For example, when Fang Zhen heard that a large force of heterodox fighters were marching on Shaolin, he let them occupy the temple rather than fight, for fear of excessive bloodshed; although he was worried they would damage the temple (being led by LHC, they didn't), he felt that it was better for the temple to be damaged, than a huge bloodbath occur in the Wulin.

    Do you really think Xuanci would do something like that?
    Damn ... are we long lost twins? Hahah ... exactly the point I wanted to make.
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    Beat ya this time

    Adding on to the Yi Jin Jing thing, even the monks at Shaolin didn't value it too much. When Ah Zhu stole it, afterwards they just sorta shrugged and went, "Eh, whateva, fuggedaboutit." They didn't think it was learnable, and it was in an unreadable language anyhow.

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    I think besides Fang Zheng, Kong Jian is quite an enlightened buddhist also at least compare the others monks and taoist, including WCY, Z3F, 1D, etc.

  18. #38
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    Oh, yes, Kong Jian was a good monk, and that dumb monk in Lu Ding Ji also seemed like a good guy, as well as Lu Ding Ji's abbot.

    Still, they didn't really get much "screen time" comparatively. Weren't really major focal characters.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    LHC absorbed a lot of people with more internal energy that him...
    Like who? LHC had a hell lot of energy in him transfered from the 6 Peach Fairies and the No Commandment Monk. The ones that he sucked dead afterwards all had lower inner energy. LHC only appeared to have no inner energy because his energy streams were fighting each other inside.
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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Eh? That energy was completely dissipated with the learning of the Star Absorbing Art. It's one of the reasons why it's hard to learn since you'd die unless you could drain someone immediately (due to lack of internal energy).

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