Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 77

Thread: "The Buddhist Palm" - comparison with Hong Lung 18 Palms

  1. #41
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    ( @ )( @ )
    Posts
    4,651

    Default

    Not dissipated. Merged. That's what the version I read said anyway. Else how do you explain why he became so powerful inner power-wise after "dissipating" all of those energy streams and only sucked one guy (Ha Bai Zi?)? He was "dissipating" them but it was actually merging them to become his own. Just like what he would do to merge the new energy he sucked from another person to his own energy.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

  2. #42
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    2,858

    Default

    Hmm, is that how it is? If the art could merge the internal energy streams, what exactly was the problem that LHC (and RWX) had with the merging later? I thought that it was supposed to be inferior to BMSG because it couldn't merge the internal energy streams.

    And what about the part where you had to absorb a person immediately after mastering the art? What's the point of that if not for dissipating your existing internal energy first?

  3. #43
    Moderator kidd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Somewhere Out There
    Posts
    13,111

    Default

    Here's some info on 'Ru Lai Shen Zhang':

    This site got a paragraph that mentioned 如来神掌.

    http://bbs.qq.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show/c...essageid=61007

    十四:萧瑟
    以主角挑战各大门派为主轴,杀戮颇重,大漠鹏城 落星追魂最佳[万象]柳残阳 多描写黑道人物 无各大门派 血腥味浓,邪神门徒&如来八法 枭霸&枭中雄竹与剑&大龙头为其代表,其中邪神门徒为香港漫画如来神掌第一部所本.

    The following wuxia novel got a whole chapter named 如来神掌
    The novel is called 风云续集 by 马荣成

    http://www.chinese-e-book.com/wx/m/marongcheng/fyxj/

    第三章 如来神掌 : http://www.chinese-e-book.com/wx/m/m...g/fyxj/003.htm

  4. #44
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    ( @ )( @ )
    Posts
    4,651

    Default

    I'm not very certain about it myself. It's kind of confusing.

    The problem RWX and LHC both had was that the merging method they used was not perfect and the foreign energy streams could not be completely merged into their own. Eventually they would "fight back" and cause serious problems. That's why it was inferior to Bei Ming. RWX thought he had found out how to fix it, but he still failed and died.

    And what about the part where you had to absorb a person immediately after mastering the art? What's the point of that if not for dissipating your existing internal energy first?
    Maybe it's because you would be "hungry" for new energy. A person doesn't have to dump all the processed food out of his body before feeling hungry and eating some food.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

  5. #45
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,425

    Default

    their abbot Xuanci was a hypocrite who seduced Ye Erniang
    That happened 30 years before the story began. According to Ye Erniang, it was she who seduced him. He had plenty of time to change for the better if he wanted.

    and the others, judging from their treatment of Xiao Feng, as well as their own performances, seemed to be a highly egotistical, face-loving lot.
    I agree they can seem rather unpleasant, but they had plenty of evidence that Xiao Feng murdered people dear to him, and plus Xiao Feng had smuggled a thief (disguised Ah Zhu) out of Shaolin, so they had reasons to mistreat him.

    Well, I'm glad we're having this debate. I can possibly accept that Fang Zheng is more benevolent than Abbot Xuanci. And I agree, there's some evidence that people in XAJH are on par with Xiao Feng and the Greats. Examples:

    -It is possible that the 6 fairies can perform Lingkong Dianxue, which seems to be a prestigeous skill that only highly skilled artists can perform in DGSD and Trilogy.
    -Jin Yong mention Dugu Qiubai and Linghu Chong in the same sentence as legendary swordsmen, in Duke of Mount Deer.
    -Xiang Wentian can make foot imprints that was impossible to do in HSDS
    -Jin Yong suggested that Dugu Qiubai would be impressed with Ren Woxing, and Feng Qingyang can be a substitute for Dugu's martial arts.

    But there's also contradictions to those earlier works. Which one do we believe?

    -the origin of Yi Jin Jing is different in DGSD and in SPW. Either the time or the place, or both, do not match. (not entirely sure on the details)

    -Jin Yong in his novels up till SPW has always emphasized internal energy cultivation. Yet in SPW, people with little or no internal energy suddenly can defeat those with energy.

    By the way, there was a similar discussion on Yi Jin Jing: DGSD v.s SPW
    Last edited by PJ; 09-15-05 at 07:55 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  6. #46
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Posts
    18,425

    Default

    I found an old article by Laviathan. It was written at least 3 years ago, so some of his opinions may have changed. An interesting read nontheless.

    In the Jin Yong universe, there's a decline in martial arts with each generation. That means that (on the whole) Northern Song fighters are stronger compared to Southern Song, Southern Song fighters better than Yuan dynasty fighters etc.

    Zhang Wuji is a person living in the end of the Yuan dynasty, while Linghu Chong is from the Ming era (this is certain). So strictly speaking, Zhang Wuji should be more powerful than Linghu Chong anyway.

    Well, if we closely examine the content of "Smiling Proud Wanderer", we can see that the swordsman who gave Linghu Chong the most trouble was Taoist Priest Chongxu, the leader of the Wudang School. Because Linghu Chong's Dugu NIne Swords place emphasis on "defeating a technique with no technique", but Chongxu has already mastered a level of Taiji Sword in which he fights with Jianyi (Sword Intention) instead of techniques. Chongxu's style therefore has no weakness but the middle of the Taiji circle which Linghu Chong eventually managed to break through. Chongxu considered himself defeated because Linghu Chong discovered his weak point, but actually it was still a draw... if the two gentlemen would continue the fight, the outcome is uncertain.

    Zhang Wuji has learned Taiji Sword from its' founder, Zhang Sanfeng. The moment Zhang Wuji learned it, he immediately forgot the techniques in order to grasp the essence of the style: Sword Intention. He was able to defeat the Divine Eight-Armed Swordsman Fang Dongbai with just a wooden sword. I therefore conclude that Zhang Wuji's sword style is equally good/maybe even better than Linghu Chong's. Furthermore, Zhang's internal power is MUCH MORE powerful than Linghu Chong's.

    Although Linghu Chong learned the Yijinjing (Tendon Changing Classic) at the end of the novel, I still think that his internal power is no match for Zhang Wuji's. Because in Jin Yong's novels, there's a great decline in the power of Yijinjing. In Demi-Gods & Semi-Devils, the Yijinjing was an art that was extremely hard to master. Only if you had the correct mental awareness you were able to learn. You Danzhi was not aware of the fact that he was actually learning a martial art, therefore he could master about 60% of the content. But once mastered, he became extremely powerful and his internal powers even exceeds of Xiao Feng.

    In the Ming dynasty, Shaolin abbot Fangzheng was the only one who knew this art, he recited about 3000 characters (Yijinjing) to Linghu Chong and he was able to practice it. While during the Qing dynasty, when Wei Xiaobao was residing at the Shaolin temple, almost all high-ranked Shaolin disciples learned Yijinjing.

    Now, you will all agree with me that the harder an martial art is to master, the more powerful it should be. Therefore, Linghu Chong's Yijinjing is definately not as powerful as Zhang Wuji's Jiuyang Shengong and Qiankun Danuoyi.

    Those who would argue that Linghu Chong can use the 9th technique of the Nine Swords of Dugu to defeat Qi... Have you EVER seen Linghu Chong perform this technique? HOW DOES IT WORK? Let's face it, Linghu Chong is only good at swordsmanship. It's the thing that he excells in, and I respect him for that. But he is definately not an all-round martial artist like Guo Jing, Yang Guo or Zhang Wuji.

    Linghu Chong's fighting style has its' weaknesses:

    1. He must be able to SEE the opponent's techniques to discover its' weakness. When he was chasing the two Songshan members outside of Fuzhou, he almost got killed because they were fighting by night, it was too dark so he could not see the techniques of his opponents.

    2. He gets into trouble when the opponent is too fast. He might be able to discover the weak spots, but sometimes he is just not quick enough to strike. This was the case with Dongfang Bubai, he didn't stand a chance, although he got help from Ren Woxing and Xiang Wentian. He was able to defeat Yue Buqun, but that's just because Yue is NOT AS FAST as Dongfang, and because Yue used the Bixie Sword which is just limited to 72 techniques. When he repeat the techniques, Linghu Chong was able to strike.

    Now, in "Return of the Condor Heroes", Dragon Girl Xiaolongnü performed the Maiden Swordsmanship plus Quanzhen Sword together. She was much faster than Dongfang Bubai. So, Linghu Chong CAN NOT win from Xiaolongnü.

    3. He has to be familiar with other forms of martial arts in order to find weak spots. because he has a profound training in swordsmanship, he could easily defeat other swordsmen. But he's not very good at unarmed combat, so he could not understand the techniques of Ren Woxing and Abbot Fangzheng.

    4. He has too be ARMED. Without a sword, Linghu Chong becomes a mediocre fighter.

    BUT, lastly, I would like to point out the fact that Linghu Chong is much, much more intelligent than Zhang Wuji. Zhang Wuji just has better martial arts, but in actual combat he is pretty lousy while Linghu Chong can addapt to the situation and will try to gain an advantage. But the difference in power is just too big, so in the end, Zhang Wuji would be victorious.

    About Chongxu, I said that he was the SWORDSMAN who gave Linghu Chong the most trouble. At Meizhuang, Ren Woxing used about eight different sword styles but he was still not able to beat Linghu Chong, eventually he had to use his internal power and gave a loud yell to knock out Linghu Chong and the Four Friends of Meizhuang (Ren Woxing did not use Xixing Dafa, just internal power). While Chongxu just use Taiji Sword and fought Linghu Chong fair and square. I agree with you that Ren Woxing is a better fighter than Chongxu in all-round martial arts, BUT in the field of swordsmanship I believe Chongxu to have a higher level of mastery.

    Well, what can beat Xixing Dafa? First you must be aware of the fact that in Jin Yong novels, evil cannot defeat good, that is unorthodox martial arts are inferior to orthodox martial arts. Like MEH already said, the Shaolin abbot with his Yijinjing was able to withstand Ren Woxing's absorbing power. I believe Abbot Fangzheng's internal powers are no match for Zhang Wuji's, so if the abbot can withstand it, it will not be a problem for Zhang Wuji either.

    Lastly, in the novel Yingying told Linghu Chong that the power aquired by Xixing Dafa is of lesser quality than those obtained by orthodox qigong training. Your own internal power can automatically protect you from harm, but absorbed power must be generated. Therefore Zhang Wuji could accept three strokes from the nun Miejue and almost immediately recover from his injury. Linghu Chong on the other hand got kicked by Yue Buqun in the Shaolin Temple and fainted. So, I conclude that Linghu Chong's power cannot compete with those of Zhang Wuji.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  7. #47
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    ( @ )( @ )
    Posts
    4,651

    Default

    -Xiang Wentian can make foot imprints that was impossible to do in HSDS
    Only if the Four Fellows of Jiangnan used similar materials for the floor in their house like the extremely hard (and also hard to find) rocky surface (thousands of years old) on Shaolin. Which I really doubt. Why would you have that in a house? It doesn't make sense (too cold in winter for instance). Btw Ah San in HSDS stamped his foot on the stone floor of Wudang, left his imprint on the middle piece and broke the two adjacent ones. ZWJ flicked his finger and the (normal) fan he got from Xian Wuchong of Huasan flew through the rocky surface on Brightness Peak Hall and disappeared.

    Someone also said how easily XWT kicked a horse down the cliff. Well, HYS in LOCH patted a very strong horse (which Huazheng rode) and it died immediately from a broken back and smashed internal organs. OYF did the same to the fat GN freak's horse.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

  8. #48
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Currently DC
    Posts
    6,660

    Default

    But the point is, Candide, Ren Woxing and Fang Zhen's internal energy is way ahead of Xiang Wentian.

    Incidentally, stamping and leaving an imprint on tile should be much easier than simply standing there, without stamping, and pressing down w/inner energy. Xiang Wentian just forced down his inner energy, with no leg motion at all.

    I mean, I could probably stomp a piece of wood to pieces, but I don't think I could do it just by standing there :P

    Admittedly, what he stamped an imprint on was bricks, not stone

    "他说了这几句话,身子往旁边一 让,只见地下两块青砖之上,分别出现了一个脚印,
    深及两寸。原来他适才说话之 时,潜运内力,竟在青砖上硬生生踏出了两个脚印."

    "After he said these few words, he moved slightly, showing beneath him, on top of the two pieces of brick, a pair of footprints, approximately 2 cun (about 7 centimeters, or about 2.5 inches for the American world) in depth. While he was talking, he had generated his internal energy and pressed down on the bricks, forming those two footprints."

    But I'd imagine forming perfect imprints on brick, without it crumbling, is extremely impressive in its own right and speaks of a near-perfect internal energy control.

    "踏出的足印之中并无青砖碎粉,两个足印又一般深浅,平平整整,便如细心雕刻出来一般"

    "In the middle of the footprints he created there was no broken pieces of brick or powder/residue; the two footprints were of average depth, flat and whole, as if it had been very carefully sculpted out from the brick. "
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 09-15-05 at 03:01 AM.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Mount Olympus, sipping nectar and eating ambrosia
    Posts
    2,074

    Default

    Well according to the novel Smiling Proud Wanderer chapter 35, Linghu Chong thought that Dongfang Bubai's internal energy was not that exceptionally high and his stances were not that magnificent. But it was the speed of Dongfang that was awesome.
    當日在黑木崖上圍攻東方不敗,他手中只持一枚繡花針,可是四大高手竟然無法与之相抗,此刻細想,并非由于東 方不敗內功奇高,也不是由于招數极巧,只是他行動如電,攻守進退,全然出于對手意料之外。

    I have visited a lot of Chinese Jin Yong forums even the so-called official one. All of those posters, members have read the novels, yes! But in my opnion none of them have read them very accurately. Sometimes, they have rather "interesting" ideas for instance the Shaolin abbot of The Duke of Mount Deer would be as good or even superior to abbot Xuanci of DGSD. And the list goes on at those forums.
    These are the same people who disown the third edition without actually reading them. Some of them did "read" (actually they glance through it) and decided it is bad without even giving it a fair chance. A lot of those posters there have very conservative, narrow-minded mentality, up to the point of being a pigheaded bigot. It is hardly surprising that in a different section of the forums these people shout that Chinese people will rule the world. Believing oneself to be perfect over another race is often the sign of a delusional mind. Therefore, I do not like those forums and I will certainly not discuss one of my favourite pastime with that lot.
    If I offend people with this, I am sorry. But this has been on my chest for some time. Those people look down on people who discuss Jin Yong on the English forums. Mock us that we do not have the skills to understand Jin Yong novels etc. Well, in my opinion almost every member here is a better Jin Yong reader/fan and Jin Yong analysist that any of those lot can ever hope to be.


    By the way, that comment in chapter 2 of HSDS, about creating imprints on stone tiles/bricks is impossible, were just the thoughts of abbot Tianming and those other Shaolin monks (like Wuse, Wuxiang, seven narrow-minded old monks of the Spiritual Zen Hall, etc.).
    It is up to us to believe whether abbot Tianming and entourage are capable of making such an assessment. Some think they are capable, some aren't. I refrain myself from making a comment on this.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  10. #50
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    408

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athena
    Well, in my opinion almost every member here is a better Jin Yong reader/fan and Jin Yong analysist that any of those lot can ever hope to be.
    Well said, Athena. So, no one is interested in DFBB vs YD then.

    Athena (or anyone who can help me here), may I ask you something? Right now I don't have my LOCH translated novel with me (my Chinese is very limited, I'm in US but my translated novel is in Thailand). I remember that, when YD cured HR from her iron-palm injury, YD use his finger skill on HR and he was also moving around her. Based on my rough memory, I think he make a very impressive movement & precision (observed by GJ). Am I right? Do you think YD's "speed" (movement+precision) can be used against DFBB? Also, do you think it will be fair for YD's finger skill if we limit DFBB's weapon to be just his needle like the one he/she use to fight LHC & co.?

    I know that it is hard to compare (or you might not be interested to compare) but I'm just (very) curious though.
    Last edited by Wu Xing; 09-15-05 at 05:33 AM.

  11. #51
    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    3,943

    Default

    Candide your HSDS, is that from 3rd edition, don't remember them being there in 2nd edition.

    Ah3 broke the middle slate and the adjacent ones.

    ZWJ pressed, using a finger or two, the fan completely into the ground in the Ming Hall (I had the impression it was mud too, not stone, maybe wrong).

    If he can flick a normal fan completely into a rocky surface, than his fingers are more divine than that of HYS's.

    The horse was mentioned to demonstrate that 1000 catties isn't that much. A horse it self weighs 1000-1200pounds, more if a prime riding horse. To be able to kick it off the ground requires greater force, ie over 1000 catties. So for me, when jinyong uses the term '1000 catties', its a figure of speech, and it could range anywhere between 1000 to 10000 catties.

    If two fighters can generate '1000 catties' in their palm or fist or leg, it doesnt necessarily mean a very similar amount of catties.

    However, I am not sure if XWT kicked the horse off ground or kicked along the ground so it rolled off. Is it also possible that a kick can generate more force than a punch?

    I am not sure how much force is required to break a horse's vertebrae or cause it to suffer internal organ bleeding. But a human punch is capable of doing that to a human body.

  12. #52

  13. #53
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,027

    Default

    PJ, not many people went after 9Yang either, except for Wan Hak Sai and Siu Seung Tze. So 9Yang can't be that good?

  14. #54
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Mount Olympus, sipping nectar and eating ambrosia
    Posts
    2,074

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wu Xing
    Well said, Athena. So, no one is interested in DFBB vs YD then.

    Athena (or anyone who can help me here), may I ask you something? Right now I don't have my LOCH translated novel with me (my Chinese is very limited, I'm in US but my translated novel is in Thailand). I remember that, when YD cured HR from her iron-palm injury, YD use his finger skill on HR and he was also moving around her. Based on my rough memory, I think he make a very impressive movement & precision (observed by GJ). Am I right? Do you think YD's "speed" (movement+precision) can be used against DFBB? Also, do you think it will be fair for YD's finger skill if we limit DFBB's weapon to be just his needle like the one he/she use to fight LHC & co.?

    I know that it is hard to compare (or you might not be interested to compare) but I'm just (very) curious though.
    The speed of South Emperor reverend Yideng was very impressive (if not equally or perhaps even better than Dongfang Bubai?). And Guo Jing thought that the Yiyang Finger of reverend Yideng would certainly be an asset in a battle. Speed has never been a problem for the Greats in my opinion, but are they as fast as Xiao Longnu (who is the fastest of everyone). I always believe that Xiao Longnu is better in speed than Dongfang Bubai.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  15. #55
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CFT
    PJ, not many people went after 9Yang either, except for Wan Hak Sai and Siu Seung Tze. So 9Yang can't be that good?
    There's an important difference. In the eras of DGSD and SOD, everybody knew that the Yik Gun Ging existed; as of the end of ROCH, only a handful of people knew that the 9 Yeung Jen Ging existed.

  16. #56
    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    1,288

    Default

    But isn't YJJ from DGSD is much more powerful than 9 Yang?

  17. #57
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Posts
    24,367

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus
    But isn't YJJ from DGSD is much more powerful than 9 Yang?
    Sure seems that way. Goodness knows why.

  18. #58
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    ( @ )( @ )
    Posts
    4,651

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Athena
    If I offend people with this, I am sorry. But this has been on my chest for some time. Those people look down on people who discuss Jin Yong on the English forums. Mock us that we do not have the skills to understand Jin Yong novels etc. Well, in my opinion almost every member here is a better Jin Yong reader/fan and Jin Yong analysist that any of those lot can ever hope to be.
    Ah, wish I were there... What a chance to irritate those people and do some brain damages!

    By the way, that comment in chapter 2 of HSDS, about creating imprints on stone tiles/bricks is impossible, were just the thoughts of abbot Tianming and those other Shaolin monks (like Wuse, Wuxiang, seven narrow-minded old monks of the Spiritual Zen Hall, etc.).
    It is up to us to believe whether abbot Tianming and entourage are capable of making such an assessment. Some think they are capable, some aren't. I refrain myself from making a comment on this.
    I only trust assessments done by meat lovers.

    Well according to the novel Smiling Proud Wanderer chapter 35, Linghu Chong thought that Dongfang Bubai's internal energy was not that exceptionally high and his stances were not that magnificent. But it was the speed of Dongfang that was awesome.
    Well that could be easily explained. He did have a few parts short of a normal bloke, so he was lighter. All kidding aside, yes that assessment made by LHC was one of the reasons why I'm not a DFBB worshipper.

    ZWJ pressed, using a finger or two, the fan completely into the ground in the Ming Hall (I had the impression it was mud too, not stone, maybe wrong).

    If he can flick a normal fan completely into a rocky surface, than his fingers are more divine than that of HYS's.
    I only read the 2nd ed. Haven't read 3rd ed yet. An accurate description was that he held the fan between his index and middle fingers and threw it downwards. If he were to press it down, he would have to kneel down since the fan was very short. Can you imagine how amateur that would look? The surface wasn't mud for sure. I just checked the chapter again and it was not rock though. It was the main hall of the Ming cult, one would imagine that the ground would be of fairly decent materials.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

  19. #59
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    ( @ )( @ )
    Posts
    4,651

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus
    But isn't YJJ from DGSD is much more powerful than 9 Yang?
    Comes with a rather big sacrifice, just like QHBD.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

  20. #60
    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    1,288

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Candide
    Comes with a rather big sacrifice, just like QHBD.
    What sacrifice?

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 03-01-12, 04:16 PM
  2. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-01-12, 04:13 PM
  3. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 07-02-08, 09:43 PM
  4. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 09-02-07, 02:23 AM
  5. Replies: 13
    Last Post: 02-10-07, 11:52 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •