Whom do you think became the Ming Cult's new "Left Herald of Light"?

[Ken Cheng]

At the end of HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE, after Cheung Mo Gei had abdicated his position as Ming Cult Leader in favor of Yeung Siu, whom do you think among the surviving Ming Cult members was promoted to Yeung Siu's old position as the Left Herald of Light? In the Ming Cult, there was traditionally always a Left and Right Herald of Light. This individual needed to be both a good martial artist and have sharp tactical instincts. Who could have filled the role after Yeung Siu was promoted to Cult Leader?

[bobbywu]

Without a doubt, considering who was still left (Peacock King died) and willing (Golden Mane King was a monk), the green bat would be the heavy favorite. He might have been lacking a bit in martial arts, but he was very tactical like Yang Xiao.

Other possible candidates (about 100:1 only if Green Bat doesn't want to move) -
Peacock King's son. The Five (not sure what they are called) People were all relatively equal, so not fair to promote one of them over the other.

[SkineePanda]

Peacock King? You mean the White-browed Eagle King?

Imagine all these random characters that can be made up with animal names as Ming cult guardians....the gray-skinned whale king, the turquoise-armored turtle king

anyways, Zhu Yuanzhang might have took over as Left Herald and worked his way up.

[Ken Cheng]

anyways, Zhu Yuanzhang might have took over as Left Herald and worked his way up.

Interesting choice. Chu Yeun Cheung definitely had the brains for the job, but his martial arts were not extraordinary. Still, this might be how he began consolidating his power within the Ming Cult...which would ultimately pay off when he became the first Ming Emperor of China.

[heats]

however, zhu yuanchang killed all those high ranking people in ming cult when he became leader

[Ken Cheng]

however, zhu yuanchang killed all those high ranking people in ming cult when he became leader

Indeed, but I doubt that he accomplished this through a spectacular display of superior martial arts (he didn't have any). He probably contrived a very clever murder plot that involved playing pieces against one another (a la Yeung Hong and Sing Kwun). He probably killed a large number of them without having to personally raise a finger.

[heats]

i think it was mentioned that zhu yuanchang managed to get to be leader of ming cult only because yang xiao was old and getting weaker and moreover he managed to get the support of many of ming cult people. when he came into power, he ordered those high rank people to be killed.

[lordrayden11]

hi, who is zhu yuanchang?

[Ken Cheng]

hi, who is zhu yuanchang?

In HSDS, a minor Ming Cult member.

In the real world, he was the rebel leader who overthrew the Mongol Yuan Dynasty and founded the Ming Dynasty of China in C.E. 1368.

[yittz]

Not sure about Zhu Yuan Zhuang

First he was already a powerful leader with huge military backing. He was cautious not to antagonise the Ming cult (e.g. his careful dealing with ZWJ), but there wasn't much point in working his way up the ladder.

Left herald is one below clan leader and he never became ming cult leader. So there is nothing to work up anyway.

My backing is batman.

[Whsie]

Bat King hands down for me. Zhu Yang Zhang is STUPID, killing all the big guys. If it weren't for this, Ming could actually be strong! He may have created Ming dyansty, but this dynasty doesn't have much great achievements. Ones I can think of is the navy for a period of time and the king that overthrew his nephew I think. Compared to Tang or Ching, Ming is crap.

[Ken Cheng]

He may have created Ming dyansty, but this dynasty doesn't have much great achievements. Ones I can think of is the navy for a period of time and the king that overthrew his nephew I think. Compared to Tang or Ching, Ming is crap.

The Ming Dynasty lasted from C.E. 1368 - 1644...nearly 300 years. Surely, its founders must have done something right.

The Ming Dynasty is seen as another high point of Chinese power between foreign occupations (the Mongols of the Yuan and the Manchurians of the Qing). Militarily and politically, the Ming Dynasty completely blows away the Sung Dynasty (the last Chinese-controlled dynasty to precede the Ming). Where the Ming comes up a little short, however, is its influence on the international stage and its cultural progress. Due to the constant foreign invasions of the 11th, 12th, and 13th Centuries, the Ming Dynasty was very isolationist, and as a result, China closed itself off to international exchange just as European explorers began arriving in the Far East. This isolationism would continue, to some extent, until the 20th Century.

[Whsie]

Ming dynasty may have been stronger than Song, but that's because Song was even worse! Song was only strong economically, I don't remember Song strong military wise (of course Mongols rule all). Yeah, they did last almost 300 years, but I personally think that deals with luck. They were strong at military wise at first....., until Zhu Yuan Zhang killed all the generals that helped him out. That's the part that I believe is Ming's biggest downfall.

[Ken Cheng]

Song was only strong economically.

And culturally. Despite its military weakness, the Sung Dynasty is recognized as a zenith of Chinese civilization. Literature, fine arts, and philosophy in China peaked during the Sung Dynasty.

[Whsie]

fine, I missed that one out. But you just gotta admit Song SUCKS in military. The only thing I can think of is the Yang Faimly...., but nothing else. And the Yang Faimly doesn't even appear in my history textbook.

[Bei Rongkun]

it will be Bu Hui's son with the wudang heroes.

[SkineePanda]

fine, I missed that one out. But you just gotta admit Song SUCKS in military. The only thing I can think of is the Yang Faimly...., but nothing else. And the Yang Faimly doesn't even appear in my history textbook.

Yang family doesn't seem to be all that impressive in real history. Other than Yang Ye and Yang Yanzhao, no one(who was not made up) seem to have made any impressive service.

I don't think Song is as weak as you think. Many of China's most famous and capable generals belong to the Song Dynasty. By far the greatest was Yue Fei who NEVER lost a battle. Another favorite was the tattooed-face general Di Qing who wore a silver/bronze mask with flowing hair in battle, scaring the crap out of his enemies. THese are warriors.

[Ken Cheng]

The Sung Dynasty had good warriors and generals at its service, but the problem was the civilian government that was in charge. They didn't have much stomach for combat, so they kept trying to buy off the barbarians. It seemed more expedient, but in the long run, the Sung screwed themselves.

[Whsie]

Either way, the Song wasn't anywhere as good and prosperous as the Han, Chin, or Tang. Those were what I called what have some serious abilities. KangXi in Ching expanded the borders. NuArHaXi very strong. Han's, HanWudi expanded the borders to Han's peak. Tang's Li Shi Min was very strong as well. QinShiHuangdi was great at combat.

[yittz]

Yeah, agree with panda's and ken's post. (Edit Whisie beat my post)

Unfortunately us chinese seem to be better at destroying ourselves rather than others/enemies. I remember a quote from a tv series, going something like "1 chinese is a dragon, but a team of chinese is a worm", and vice versa for japanese. Just a quote to illustrate a point, I m not being racist (not intentionally) and hope I don't offend anyone. Anyway the quote is a stereotype, ppl like Yue Fei are obvious exemptions.

Throughout Chinese history, there are so many examples of corruption, suspician/paranoia, self preservation and selfishness rather than thinking for the country and the big picture. The Song government just happens to stand out with the constant pressure applied by foriegn nations (Liao, Jin, Mongols). Their military when functioning as a unit, such as under YF and other competant generals were rather successful at repelling foreign attacks.

Do agree about the Mongol military. The Mongols had the best military in that era. Competant riders with accurate archery skills were the nemesis of most world military not just Song. In fact Song govern did rather well to buy its way out of destruction until quite late in the Mongol invasion of all between the two oceans.