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Thread: Which Jin Yong protagonists have been defeated?

  1. #1
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Default Which Jin Yong protagonists have been defeated?

    We are often reminded of the awesome fact that Xiao Feng has never suffered defeat throughout his martial arts career. So then, just which protagonists HAVE been defeated, and by whom?

    Consider the following:

    Shi Potian
    Yang Guo
    Guo Jing
    Xuzhu
    Duan Yu
    Zhang Wuji
    Linghu Chong
    Hu Fei
    Yuan Chengzhi
    Wei Xiaobao
    Chen Jialuo
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  2. #2
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    I think LHC takes the cake here.

  3. #3
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Well, they've *all* lost from time to time...especially when they were young and inexperienced as martial artists. Not to denigrate Kiu Fung's "undefeated" status, but he benefitted from not debuting in his novel (DGSD) until he was already thirty years old and a wulin veteran of a dozen years or more. He'd had all his "bad" fights off-camera already (unlike just about every other Jin Yong hero, whom we follow from the time they're children or even infants). Moreover, he didn't exactly win the Tsui Yin Manor encounter (overwhelming numbers against him notwithstanding) nor was he able to overcome the Janitor Monk.

    I like Kiu Fung's character and I don't want to demean him, but the "undefeated" descriptive doesn't really ring true in light of what actually happened.

  4. #4
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Z3F was undefeated. He didnt lose any encounter after that technical win over HZD.

    As for XF, all his 'off camera' fights were supposed to be wins according to the 2nd Edition.

  5. #5
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    As for XF, all his 'off camera' fights were supposed to be wins according to the 2nd Edition.
    This is another one of those "Doo Goo Kau Bai" claims where Jin Yong makes a logically impossible claim just to make a character seem cooler. For this to be true, Kiu Fung would have to have won *every* fight he's been in since he was a child. Unless he was *born* with superpowers a la Superman, that's just not possible. As great as Kiu Fung grew to be, I don't see him besting the most powerful Shaolin monks or other wulin grandmasters when he was at the age of eighteen. Perhaps it *is* true that he didn't lose any fights, but his competition during those early days might not have been as severe.

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    I mean if he spars with his teacher during practice, does that count as a fight? Surely he will lose in those. He was just lucky enough to meet fighters that aren't that much superior to him overall, and allowing his X-factor to show through. His fight with Sweeper, what does that count as? An indecisive outcome?

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Wei Xiao Bao lost almost all of his fights, except a few wins over Kang Xi when they were kids.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

  8. #8
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    What about Guo Jing and Yang Guo? How many fights did they lose?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    What about Guo Jing and Yang Guo? How many fights did they lose?

    Quite a few before each of them turned eighteen. Gwok Jing spent most of LOCH getting beaten up by more powerful fighters, and the same could be said of Yeung Gor in ROCH until he gained the Heavy Iron Sword.

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    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    Shi Po Tian lost to Bai Wan Jian in Purple Smoke Island.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    would zwj's deliberate defeat to zzr in shaolin count?

  12. #12
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    This is another one of those "Doo Goo Kau Bai" claims where Jin Yong makes a logically impossible claim just to make a character seem cooler. For this to be true, Kiu Fung would have to have won *every* fight he's been in since he was a child. Unless he was *born* with superpowers a la Superman, that's just not possible. As great as Kiu Fung grew to be, I don't see him besting the most powerful Shaolin monks or other wulin grandmasters when he was at the age of eighteen. Perhaps it *is* true that he didn't lose any fights, but his competition during those early days might not have been as severe.
    Its part of the whole XF plot device. As Lav pointed out, JY wanted to create an undefeatable Herculean like hero. So we see him start out as a fully battle-ready tough guy and JY wrote the story such that he doesn't get forced into unwinnable situations which make him look bad.

    JY wrote in 'escape' clauses for him in the 3 situations where he _could_ have been made to look bad.

    1. At Ju Xian Zhuang, JY let the mob get in each others way and also hold back out of fear instead of swarming XF. And only let XF get hurt when he had to carry Ah Zhu in 1 arm.

    2. Facing MRF and YTZ, JY let Duan Yu interfere before XF theoretically loses steam after maybe and hour or 2.

    3. JY didn't let Sweeper Monk tap back in retaliation at XF. In fact, JY could have let Sweeper block XF's strike with his one spare arm. Would not have stretched the plot if Sweeper was able to deflect XF's 1 single strike even if he was tapping MRB at that time. But JY contrived to make XF and his Dragon Palm look better on screen by having it impact and hurt Sweeper Monk.


    edit: Can't think of any other event where XF would have potentially gotten into a big face loss. Maybe when Ah Zhi drugged him. But that was a not really a kung fu moment.

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