Seeking popular opinion: Martial arts level of the Smiling Proud Wanderer experts

[PJ]

In your opinion, what is the martial arts level of experts like Fang Zheng, Linhu Chong, Ren Woxing, and Chong Xu? Please feel free to vote only and not discuss it.

[bliss]

Given the 3rd edition changes to TLBB, this is quite an interesting question because now since YTZ never learned Yijinjing, Fang Zheng would be the only one who truly learned that skill. A big knock on XAJH era fighters was the differences between TLBB's YJJ (pictures and such) and XAJH's YJJ (spoken word). But now since that is no longer the case, it can STRONGLY be argued that XAJH fighters could very well be extremely powerful.

You also have to be cautious because wherever you rank these fighters, you have to put Dongfang Bubai at least 2 or 3 levels higher ... I personally think they are somewhere around the third option (Duan Yanqing, Xuan Ci, etc) BUT that would automatically throw Dongfang Bubai into the XiaoYao / Sweeper tier of fighters.

Justifications: Fang Zheng DID learn a ridiculous number of Shaolin's 72 Ultimate Arts (10 or something? can't remember exactly). Plus, seems like his enlightenment would really help to bolster his Yi Jin Jing, making him somewhat of an internal energy powerhouse. Feats in XAJH were always comparable to Trilogy and TLBB feats. People just keep using Deterioration Theory too much when trying to prove that XAJH fighters were much weaker. But now, since Fang Zheng is the sole known practitioner of YJJ, you can't really apply Deterioration theory to him.

PS. In 3rd edition, I'm assuming JMZ doesn't learn YJJ either? Does he take YTZ's yoga methods instead?

[ChronoReverse]

One thing to note about the YJJ of DGSD is that the only one to truly show power was YTZ. But it was stated that the power came from the meld of extreme orthodox and heterorthodox. This means that while practicing DGSD's YJJ could yield extreme power, there's no reason to believe that it would normally yield such power so quickly.

Of course, with the new edition, it's not even YJJ, but it also states that the Shaolin monks have a normal copy of YJJ...


I'm hesitant to vote. Logically speaking, I don't see any real reason why RWX and FZ shouldn't be as good as the Greats (or at least QQR's level). But that does put DFBB so far ahead of the Greats as to moving past XY Elders territory and approaching XZ and Sweeps level.

[Dennis Chen]

PS. In 3rd edition, I'm assuming JMZ doesn't learn YJJ either? Does he take YTZ's yoga methods instead?

Xiao Wu Xiang Gong.

[bliss]

Xiao Wu Xiang Gong.

JMZ always had XWXG. I'm referring to when he "convinces" YTZ to give him the YJJ manual as well. Since YTZ no longer has YJJ, does this happen anymore?

[PJ]

One thing to note about the YJJ of DGSD is that the only one to truly show power was YTZ. But it was stated that the power came from the meld of extreme orthodox and heterorthodox. This means that while practicing DGSD's YJJ could yield extreme power, there's no reason to believe that it would normally yield such power so quickly.

Right, but You Tanzhi only had brief encounter with YJJ. He was nowhere near mastering the art, while Fang Zheng presumably had much more time to practice. If You had more time to practice, he should be much more powerful than his current state.

Feats in XAJH were always comparable to Trilogy and TLBB feats

Since you mention that, it reminds me of the Long Distance Attack (LDA) comparisons of DGSD and ROCH in the past. Xiao Feng and Yang Guo are capable of injuring opponents from 20-30 feet away. What is the maximum palm/finger range displayed in the SPW era?

[ChronoReverse]

That's the thing, I don't see why it's conclusive that it should be that YJJ will yield power much more than YTZ's current state if practiced for a reasonable period of time (say 20 years). Basically a freak accident occured to him (on a level that makes ZWJ's coincidences look like everyday events).

Furthermore, it was more the cold poison that XF was really having trouble with than his internal energy (not saying that it wasn't significant, but just that the coldness was the greater part).

And most of the orthodox martial arts in JY's stories, when practiced normally, starts out slow but seems to pick up the pace as it goes along. Wouldn't YJJ, epitome of orthodox and based on Buddhism, be of the same philosophy rather than fast power gains?



Had a thought. Remember how FZ talks about the karma needed to learn YJJ and that LHC had it because he would die if he didn't practice YJJ? Wouldn't YTZ also fill this requirement quite perfectly too? He'd have died pretty much right then if not for YJJ (yoga now though). This was even more urgent than LHC (who was given a short but indeterminate prognosis).

Since you mention that, it reminds me of the Long Distance Attack (LDA) comparisons of DGSD and ROCH in the past. Xiao Feng and Yang Guo are capable of injuring opponents from 20-30 feet away. What is the maximum palm/finger range displayed in the SPW era?

A random grunt (well, not really a grunt, but not even XWT's level) was able to strike LHC from 10 feet away using Yin-Yang Palms. LHC would've died if not for the 8 streams of internal energy coursing all over his body.


Oops, it's just "a good distance". However, LHC also has FS's internal energy (enough to subdue all 8 streams) in him.

[Panadol]

Given the 3rd edition changes to TLBB, this is quite an interesting question because now since YTZ never learned Yijinjing, Fang Zheng would be the only one who truly learned that skill. A big knock on XAJH era fighters was the differences between TLBB's YJJ (pictures and such) and XAJH's YJJ (spoken word). But now since that is no longer the case, it can STRONGLY be argued that XAJH fighters could very well be extremely powerful.

You also have to be cautious because wherever you rank these fighters, you have to put Dongfang Bubai at least 2 or 3 levels higher ... I personally think they are somewhere around the third option (Duan Yanqing, Xuan Ci, etc) BUT that would automatically throw Dongfang Bubai into the XiaoYao / Sweeper tier of fighters.

Justifications: Fang Zheng DID learn a ridiculous number of Shaolin's 72 Ultimate Arts (10 or something? can't remember exactly). Plus, seems like his enlightenment would really help to bolster his Yi Jin Jing, making him somewhat of an internal energy powerhouse. Feats in XAJH were always comparable to Trilogy and TLBB feats. People just keep using Deterioration Theory too much when trying to prove that XAJH fighters were much weaker. But now, since Fang Zheng is the sole known practitioner of YJJ, you can't really apply Deterioration theory to him.

PS. In 3rd edition, I'm assuming JMZ doesn't learn YJJ either? Does he take YTZ's yoga methods instead?

didn't they say that YJJ wasn't as strong as the original?

With that said, I wanna know exactly how strong is DFBB?

[ChronoReverse]

Not stated in the novels. It's strength in relation to the DGSD one is unclear due to the circumstances in YTZ's case.

We do know that FZ was stronger than RWX in a straight up fight though which is an indication of how powerful Shaolin's ultimate art is.

As for DFBB. We've had many discussions, but here are some points about him...

He's fast. REALLY really fast. Whereas really fast people in JY's story normally are the type that can attack second but still hit first, for DFBB, if someone attacks first, he can attack back, nearly hit using a 1 inch long needle against a long sword, pull back, block the long sword by the tip, induce a shock in the long sword user' and then attack again before the long sword user even finishes the first attack. And from the shock induced, we know that his internal energy isn't sacrificed at all.

Furthermore, he was fighting two of the top tiered fighters (RWX and LHC) + one very strong fighter (XWT) and one strong fighter (RYY) all at the same time and was winning. The others couldn't even touch him while DFBB, despite using a tiny needle instead of a sword (I'm fairly certain that KHBD is sword based), still managed to wound them.

Don't give me that he simply redirected the opponents weapons. First of all, that's an extremely impressive feat in itself. Second of all, in JY's stories, there's internal energy and in that fight, it was stated that the combatants' weapons were infused with their internal energy. There's no way redirection will be simple using an inferior weapon unless either your internal energy is either at least just as high, or your skill is bounds and leaps ahead. Finally, an extremely short weapon may have more leverage than a long weapon, but it certainly doesn't have the same speed as the tip of a sword, nor does it have the same momentum. The narrative also implies that such a small weapon cannot carry and channel as much internal energy.

Ultimately, it took a dirty trick to kill DFBB because it was becoming quite clear that DFBB would evenutally overwhelm them.


From this we can tell that DFBB is at least a level above RWX and LHC. The question is then how good are those fighters.

[bliss]

didn't they say that YJJ wasn't as strong as the original?

No ... I'm pretty sure it was never stated at all in the novel that the YJJ in XAJH is not as strong as the one in TLBB. From FZ's description of YJJ, it was created by Da Mo (2nd edition) and refined by Shen Guang and Li Jing during the Tang Dynasty. With the current revisions, there doesn't seem to be any reason to think that the YJJ in XAJH is not the original.

[Panadol]

hmmm with the new revisions then, since YTZ didn't learn YJJ, how strong is YJJ? There isn't anyone who learned it other than the abbot who taught LHC, so would that mean that YJJ is overrated?

Shi Po Tian had a Arahat Subduelling Demon Art didn't he? Isn't that Shaolin too? Is that supposed to be more powerful than YJJ?

[Athena]

In the new edition of DGSD, there is a short paragraph on YJJ. It is just a short summary of what it stated in the Smiling Proud Wanderer on YJJ.
There is a note that it was a very difficult art to master and there was no indication that anyone in the Shaolin Monastery of the DGSD period has learnt YJJ.

About abbot Fangzheng knowing 12 Shaolin Ultimate arts is true, but reverend Kongzhi of HSDS knew 11 himself. And reverend Kongzhi is not the best of the four Divine elders of Shaolin.

Well, I have problems with the equation Ren Woxing and entourage = Trilogy Greats and Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo, Xiao Feng, Jiumozhi.
Mainly because of Zhang Sanfeng's existence.
I know a lot of people will say that reverend Chongxu is weaker than Ren Woxing and abbot Fangzheng. But he is just a notch weaker, he is still considerable more powerful than Xiang Wentian.
If we put Ren Woxing, abbot Fangzheng and Linghu Chong people on the level of the Trilogy greats and Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo and Jiumozhi experts. That means Linghu Chong's level in swordsmanship (and overal martial arts level) is on par with that of Zhang Sanfeng himself. Linghu Chong had great difficulty in defeating reverend Chongxu, does that mean that a 60 to 70 year old reverend Chongxu is almost (just a tad weaker) as powerful as his 100+ patriarch, who was also a great martial arts genius?

[Han Solo]

We have similar discussion in the past. Learning a skill is not mastering it.

The shaolin abbot was described as knowing whereas the DGSD Shaolin masters were described as mastering.

Thus, the level of attainment in the DGSD masters seem to be higher.

[CC]

Xuan Ci's Mighty Buddha Warrior Attendant Palm was described as extremely hard to master and only mastered once in a few centuries too. I don't recall anyone else in all the JY stories mastering this art. Was there anyone else?

So if FangZheng can learn YJJ but not Buddhist Warrior Palm and Xuan Ci is the reverse, maybe they are about equal. Which slots in just perfect for Chong Xu (approx equal to FangZheng) to be 1 level below Z3F if XF is equal to GJ/Z3F and one level above Xuan Ci.

Its easier on the mind to work it this way.

So;

DFBB => XF,GJ,Z3F
RWX/LHC/FZ = Xuan Ci, DYQ.

[ChronoReverse]

Yeah, that's definitely a bit more easy to swallow.


Personally, I put RWX & Co between Xuanci & Co and GJ & Co, while DFBB goes into the XY elders' tier (XZ and Sweeps remain way above).

This is because of the way JY describes RWX which simply makes him out to be a monster. And although RWX couldn't integrate the internal energy streams, he still has a lot of internal absorbed.

As for FZ, he is now the only known practicioner of YJJ (discounting LDG's everyone learns it as a health exercise version of YJJ). For it to be Shaolin's ultimate skill, it'd be really discounting it to make it too weak. Furthermore, since his enlightenment seems to be quite high, it naturally follows that he'd be able to complete more of it in accordance to Buddhist (well, JY's) philosophy.

[Ren Wo Xing]

RE Athena: Well, it's not that simple, w/the ZSF thing. You've brought it up before, and the more I think about it, the more reason there is, for me at least, to think that it is quite plausible that LHC, purely in the realm of SWORD art (in everything else, he'd get trounced) is on a similar level with ZSF, and that it is plausible that Chong Xu is also on a similar, albeit lower level.

Why? Simply because for martial arts, as with almost everything, it's infinitely harder to create, than to learn and master. To draw a parallel, today most good physicists know far more about nuclear activity than, say, did brilliant scientists like Oppenheimer. Yet despite knowing more, how many of them do you think would claim to be as brilliant a scientist as Oppenheimer was?

It's far, far easier to follow a path than to forge one, which, in turn, makes it very conceivable that, although Chong Xu wasn't (I believe) nearly as brilliant and intelligent a martial artist as Zhang Sanfeng, it's very possible that, having followed the path that Zhang Sanfeng trailblazed, his abilities in Taiji Jian have reached an extremely high level.

Not to mention, it's not as if the 'original' martial arts are always the best; for good schools, martial arts techniques are refined over time. No Shaolin monk is going to claim that he's better than Damo, yet I'll wager the Dragon Claws of Shaolin shown in Yitian Tulong Ji, after having been, as the book mentioned, refined for hundreds of years, is a better technique than the one which Damo originally bequeathed Shaolin. So it's very plausible that although Chong Xu himself is not nearly as good a martial artist as Zhang Sanfeng, that his Taiji Jian was on a similar level (and perhaps even better, although I don't think enough time had passed for it to be improved much, if at all).

[Dennis Chen]

Is it just me and my memory or did Ren Woxing proclaim that he admired Chong Xu for his martial arts but did not admire him because he had no good students? I think Ren Woxing, Fang Zheng and Chong Xu were all on the same level.

[Ren Wo Xing]

You remembered right. RWX said he could only half-admire Chong Xu, because Chong Xu's Taiji Jian was mastered to an incredibly high level, but he had no aptitude in recruiting/teaching good students.

That being said, just judging from LHC's fight w/Chong Xu, it seems to me, at least, that Chong Xu was slightly below them. I don't see LHC doing even as well as he did in a 'real' fight vs Fang Zhen.

[Athena]

I don't think that Linghu Chong in the field of the art of the sword is at Zhang Sanfeng's level at all.

The four stages of martial arts in Jin Yong universe put down by Leviathan and myself are:

Stage 1 Fluidity/Flexibility: the techniques are still there, but emphasis is placed on INTENTION. This is the way of individual expression and is the "form" from which one can develop "no form".

"The Sword is still a Sword, the Technique is still a Technique"

Stage 2 After mastering these techniques, they must be forgotten and abolished.

"The Sword is still a Sword, but the Technique is not a Technique" Dugu Jiu Jian in the hands of Linghu Chong and Feng Qingyang

Stage 3 When insubstantiality and substantiality are not set and defined, when there is no track to change what it is, one has mastered the formless form and perfected the way of Intention.

"The Sword is not really a Sword, there is no Technique" Zhang Sanfeng and his Taiji Sword.

Stage 4 The Stage of Formlessness...

"Swordless and Techniqueless, I am the Sword and the Sword is me" Dugu Jiubai

Stage 5 The Stage of Nothingness...

"There is no Sword, and there is no Self... Emptyness and Void" The old sweeper monk

Linghu Chong still depends too much on spotting flaws, looking at techniques and such. One could argue that is part of the Dugu Jiujian style, but it is still
stylistically (in my eyes) to Zhang Sanfeng's Taiji Sword.
Furthermore, Linghu Chong took a gamble and won stylistically from reverend Chongxu. If the fight would to continue it is still not clear who would be a clear victor.

But I agree with a lot what you said Ren Woxing. However, that does not put Ren Woxing and entourage on the level with the DGSD elites and/or Trilogy Greats.

[bliss]

You remembered right. RWX said he could only half-admire Chong Xu, because Chong Xu's Taiji Jian was mastered to an incredibly high level, but he had no aptitude in recruiting/teaching good students.

That being said, just judging from LHC's fight w/Chong Xu, it seems to me, at least, that Chong Xu was slightly below them. I don't see LHC doing even as well as he did in a 'real' fight vs Fang Zhen.

No ... Ren Woxing did mention that Chong Xu had no aptitude in recruiting/teaching students, but that wasn't the reason why he only half-admired him.

Ren Woxing: "只不過你不會教徒弟，武當門下沒甚么杰出人材，等你牛鼻子鶴駕西歸，太极劍法的絕藝只怕要失傳。再說，你 的太极劍法雖高，未必胜得過老夫，因此我只佩服你一半，算是半個。"

He only mentions that Taiji Sword might be lost because he can't teach good students. Ren Woxing then goes on to add that even though Chong Xu's Taiji Sword is quite formidable, he is still not convinced that he would lose to it. That is why he only half-admires him.