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Thread: Long Distance Attacks in XAJH and their triviality

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    Default Long Distance Attacks in XAJH and their triviality

    I've been re-reading portions of Xiao Ao Jiang Hu looking for instances of LDA's (Long Distance Attacks) and have come upon two such instances.

    In Chapter 18, LHC faces Yue Hou, a senior-master of the Hengshan School. His art is the Great Yin-Yang Palm. He is able to generate two palm LDA's, one fused with Yin energy and the other one filled with Yang energy. During the fight, right before Yue Hou released these two palms, he had leapt backwards to avoid LHC's sword, and the narrator mentions that they were now a good distance away. I would think that translates to about 10 feet. It seems logical that Yue Hou would consider 10 feet a safe distance from LHC's sword to retreat to. A sword, extended with one's arm, would stretch out much more than 5 feet. Let's assume Yue Hou doubled that to be safe to 10 feet. Yue Hou then released his two palms, the Yang palm was launched earlier, but the Yin palm struck first. Linghu Chong should've died instantly when he was struck, but luckily he had those 8 streams of energy inside him. So, we can also conclude that this LDA can definitely KILL from 10 feet away.

    The strange thing to consider is that Yue Hou, although considered to be a senior master of the Hengshan Sect, was really just a 4th or 5th tier fighter. I don't think it's much of a stretch to think that 1st or 2nd tier fighters wouldn't be able to launch LDA's from much longer distances.

    The second instance of a Long Distance Attack is from Chapter 19, when Linghu Chong duels the Fourth Playfellow of Jiangnan. He is able to utilize sword qi and form light circles which shoot towards Linghu Chong from every which direction. It was stated that he was well over ten feet away when he started unleashing this form of sword qi. Linghu Chong had to utilize his Dugu 9 Jian to the max by prodding and poking his way in between the light circles to defeat him.

    Again, a 4th or 5th tier fighter utilizing LDA in the form of sword qi quite trivially. In other novels, LDA's were pretty highly regarded but for some reason, in XAJH, even mid-level fighters were capable of such feats.

    There is also another instance of LDA when Fang Sheng, younger apprentice brother of the Shaolin abbot, unleashes his internal energy through his palms and eradicates a section of shrubbery to flush Ren Yingying out from hiding. But it really wasn't very detailed about the distances and the killing power behind it.

    All in all, there are countless examples of LDA's in XAJH. But the mere fact that even mid-level fighters can perform life-taking LDA's from 10 feet or more is quite a feat. And consider, the Fourth Playfellow of Jiangnan who could launch sword qi LDA's from over 10 feet away, was easily knocked unconscious by Ren Woxing unleashing his internal energy through his shout. Take all this information whatever way you wish, but the fact of the matter is that LDA's existed in XAJH and they were quite formidable, even when performed by 4th or 5th tier fighters.

    Just for some perspective, here's where I see the fighters in XAJH ranked amongst themselves ...

    1st tier - DFBB, FQY*
    2nd tier - FZ, LHC, RWX, CX
    3rd tier - Xiang Wentian, higher level demon elders
    4th tier - Mid level demon elders, Five Peaks Leaders, 2 Eldest Jiangnan Brothers, Qu Yang
    5th tier - 2 Younger Jiangnan Brothers

    *note - I have special reason to believe that Feng Qingyang was 1 tier above the other elites, or at least somewhere between DFBB and the rest of them. But I guess that's for another post.
    Last edited by bliss; 10-14-05 at 09:46 AM.
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    Senior Member The Khan's Avatar
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    I don't believe Feng ching yang is more powerful than Ren wo xing.
    Dong fang bu bai is definitely the strongest char in XAJH.
    He should be followed by the shaolin abbot, the wudang leader, Ren wo xing, and Feng Ching Yang.

    Ling Hu chong is below these guys in ability, he's young.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    That's how I see it too except I put CX a little lower than RWX and FZ.

    However, I'd be very interested to see why bliss thinks FCY is so strong. That said, FCY seems to be extremely well-known by every single high-level fighter. He must've done some pretty ground-shaking stuff in his younger days.

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    You put Qu Yang surprisingly high. I don't think there was much evidence at all given of his abilities in the novel.

    Oh, and don't forget that it seemed, to me at least (although Lava disputed it) that the Peach Freaks were capable of sealing acupoints through air, albeit at a short distance.

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Yeah, to me the desciption seems to indicate that he sealed the accupoint without actually touching LDY.

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    dude u forgot LPZ and YBQ

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    Hm, well, Yue Buqun directed a flow of internal energy to Lin Pingzhi when he was held down by Mu Gaofeng, but it wasn't an actual attack per se...

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    There is nothing to would indicate that Feng Qingyang would be near Dongfang Bubai's level. We know practically nothing about the old man.
    He used his bare hands to strike Linghu Chong, who was just a Huashan disciple.
    That doesn't put him at the level of Dongfang Bubai, I think most first generation people from the 5 Sacred Mountain schools could do that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing
    You put Qu Yang surprisingly high. I don't think there was much evidence at all given of his abilities in the novel.

    Oh, and don't forget that it seemed, to me at least (although Lava disputed it) that the Peach Freaks were capable of sealing acupoints through air, albeit at a short distance.
    Sorry this was just meant as a quick sloppy ranking to give perspective on how even 4th and 5th tier fighters could do decent LDA's. You're right, QY should definitlely be 4th tier.

    I didn't put in YBQ and LPZ because their martial arts level was too erratic in the novel. They had a super boost from Pixie for a short while, then died. Plus, LPZ was blind and YBQ was slightly inferior to LHC due to his limited exposure to Pixie.
    Last edited by bliss; 10-14-05 at 09:48 AM.
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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Thanks, bliss. The LDA examples you gave are quite convincing. Now I'll have to think more about where these guys stand in comparison to the other novels.
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    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    None of the top level fighters though had LDA-type attack described from memory...........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Han Solo
    None of the top level fighters though had LDA-type attack described from memory...........
    My point was that LDA most likely draws from internal energy level. Internal energy level should govern from how far and how powerful an LDA would be. From the examples I gave, if 4th tier fighters can do reasonably powerful LDA's from 10+ feet away, there's really no reason to doubt that 1st and 2nd tier fighters can't do the same from further out, with much higher internal energy levels. Just because they didn't unleash LDA doesn't mean they can't.

    Internal energy levels compared to LDA then give us a measure of comparison to base internal energy levels from other novels to internal energy levels in XAJH. From the evidence, I would conclude that the internal energy level wasn't much lower between DGSD and XAJH, if 4th tier fighters can unleash LDA's from 10+ feet that have killing force.
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    I would believe that Yue Bu Qun and Ling ping zhi would be below Ling Hu chong in terms of martial ability.

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    Default Feng Qingyang's level in XAJH

    On why I believe Feng Qingyang was probably #2 in XAJH and much closer to Dongfang Bubai's level than we think ...

    Basically, Feng Qingyang's martial arts level is Linghu Chong maginified several-fold. Feng Qingyang contended that LHC would need 20 years time to reach tier 1 in wulin (with Fang Zheng, Chong Xu, Ren Woxing, etc.). Feng Qingyang obviously had much more time than that. He probably had at least 40 years time with Dugu 9 Jian. Who knows exactly just how powerful Dugu 9 Jian can be given thorough mastery and deep internal energy? We only see a slight glimpse with LHC. When we see LHC, RWX, XWT going up against DFBB, LHC was only somewhat tier 3-ish in terms of internal energy. He had drained Hebai Zi dry, drained some of the 6 Fairies, drained some of Chong Xu, etc. Yet he still manages to put up a pretty decent fight against DFBB. In my opinion, he does slightly better than Ren Woxing during that fight. This is with tier 3-ish internal energy. Remember, he doesn't even know Yijinjing at this point. In fact, we NEVER see LHC using DG9J coupled with YJJ and XXDF in action.

    So, around ~1 years training with DG9J and 3rd tier internal energy brought LHC quite close to RWX's level.

    Feng Qingyang probably had 40-50 years with DG9J and 1st tier internal energy. I think it's safe to assume that he should definitely be better than RWX. Likewise, RWX was very close to Fang Zheng, so FQY would probably be better than Fang Zheng as well. As to how much better?

    This is one of the stranger inconsistencies/oddities in XAJH. Almost all the top-tier fighters have heard of Feng Qingyang's fame and his expertise in swordsmanship. But only ONE person has been able to identify his Dugu 9 Jian, that is Fang Sheng, younger apprentice brother of Abbot Fang Zheng. In all other cases (Chong Xu, Ren Woxing, Xiang Wentian) they only identified Linghu Chong as Feng Qingyang's apprentice, but they never identified Dugu 9 Jian directly.

    Why is this strange? It seems that Feng Qingyang already made QUITE a name for himself based on his Huashan Sword Arts alone. During Linghu Chong's chat with Ren Woxing in the West Lake Dungeon, it was quite obvious that Ren Woxing held FQY in very high regard. Even so, when he heard that LHC was able to make Hebai Zi defend for 40 consecutive moves, he says something extremely odd ... "Even though Feng Qingyang's sword arts are brilliant, there is a limit on the extent of the power of Huashan's Sword Technqiues." Ren Woxing implies that Feng Qingyang does not know Dugu 9 Jian at that point.

    We know that Feng Qingyang was the undisputed number 1 in Huashan during the split. This was explained to LHC by FZ and CX as the reason why the Qi faction schemed to draw FQY away when the two factions fought it out. The question is ... did Feng Qingyang learn Dugu 9 Jian BEFORE or AFTER his disappearance and retirement from wulin? Because different high-level masters had different impressions of Feng Qingyang with and without Dugu 9 Jian.

    At the end of the duel between LHC and RWX, LHC's DG9J becomes so profound and otherworldly that RWX proclaims, "There is no way that FQY taught you those sword moves, he isn't capable!" RWX was totally dumbfounded and amazed when he saw the techniques of DG9J. Thusly, RWX had really never witnessed DG9J in action. And Ren Woxing can probably be considered as the most knowledgable person in the field of martial arts and techniques in XAJH. He only disappeared from wulin for 12 years, Feng Qingyang was long retired during that time. If Dugu 9 Jian was around, RWX would've definitely knew about it, and not look as surprised as he did when LHC displayed its brilliance.

    The only person to witness FQY's DG9J was Fang Sheng, who immediately recognized LHC and proclaimed it as DG9J when the two fought. He said that FQY had once bestowed a great favor upon him. This is most likely after FQY's retirement.

    So my point is, if Feng Qingyang was able to shake the martial arts world using just Huashan Sword Techniques, and gain such reverence from Ren Woxing and other prominent figures in wulin, wouldn't his level with Dugu 9 Jian mastered for over 40 years be MUCH more incredible? Everyone only knew of the FQY that was before retirement, and already, he was an earth-shaking figure. My theory is that he gained/learned Dugu 9 Jian sometime after that, and became even MORE powerful. No one then really knows how strong Feng Qingyang really is by the time that XAJH takes place. I dare to conjecture that he is definitely stronger than Fang Zheng, Ren Woxing, Chong Xu, and approaches the level of Dongfang Bubai.

    This is my theory, so all comments/suggestions/corrections are welcome!
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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Ohh... this one is a tough cookie to swallow. I'll have think about this one before commenting further.

    The one thing I'll say for now is that even if FCY was greater than RWX, that doesn't necessarily mean he's approaching DFBB level yet.

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    Interesting. Very very interesting.

    Still, one needs to take into account the consideration that Ren Woxing's duels (assuming he had some) with Feng Qingyang may have been before FQY learned DG9J, and gained respect for him then, but Feng Qingyang might've roamed Wulin later on w/DG9J and then made a name for himself in the Wulin with it. Ren Woxing obviously thought highly of FQY, but he clearly didn't think of FQY as someone who could beat him; otherwise, why would he be so surprised that LHC was? His comments, to me at least, implied that LHC's ability with DG9J SURPASSED FQY's without, because it was defeating his own sword art. Definitely putting pre-DG9J FQY beneath RWX. DG9J FQY might well have been above RWX, but to DFBB's level? I'm not so sure.

    Also, keep in mind that FQY himself admitted that LHC was much more intelligent/well adapted to DG9J than he was; the same Sword Breaking Stance which took him months to learn, LHC grasped some usable basics of in a night. The entire DG9J (save the ninth stance) LHC learned in probably less time than FQY learned simply the Sword Breaking Stance! Not to mention, LHC didn't merely 'practice' DG9J, he was forced, in unusual situations, to use it in a life and death situation many times, without any internal energy and thus solely relying on his proficiency with the sword. After all, the novel said repeatedly that the more/better martial artists LHC fought, the more he gained from it. So it's entirely feasible that one year of LHC's wandering the world is equal to ten years of the expected 'normal' progression of training.
    Last edited by Ren Wo Xing; 10-14-05 at 05:33 PM.

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    Just because Feng Qingyang mastered Dugu 9 Jian, doesn't mean he could beat people of DFBB's level.

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    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    There's certain passages in the first 20 chapters that as far as i remember may imply that LHC has surpassed FCY in DG9J, i will try to find that and dig that out.

    Han Solo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing
    Interesting. Very very interesting.

    Still, one needs to take into account the consideration that Ren Woxing's duels (assuming he had some) with Feng Qingyang may have been before FQY learned DG9J, and gained respect for him then,
    Yes, I was suggesting that either RWX never dueled FQY before, or from what he had seen of FQY, he had never seen DG9J used before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing
    but Feng Qingyang might've roamed Wulin later on w/DG9J and then made a name for himself in the Wulin with it. Ren Woxing obviously thought highly of FQY, but he clearly didn't think of FQY as someone who could beat him; otherwise, why would he be so surprised that LHC was?
    Yes, I agree. What I'm suggesting is that FQY pre-DG9J was comparable to RWX. LHC was able to launch into near elite status with only ~ 1 year of DG9J mastery while FQY had 40-50 years to learn all the intricacies of DG9J.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing
    His comments, to me at least, implied that LHC's ability with DG9J SURPASSED FQY's without, because it was defeating his own sword art. Definitely putting pre-DG9J FQY beneath RWX. DG9J FQY might well have been above RWX, but to DFBB's level? I'm not so sure.
    Yep, that's what I'm getting at. The crux of my argument is just how devastating can DG9J be when given full mastery and 1st rate internal energy? Linghu Chong obviously did not have both, yet was already close to RWX. FQY was close to RWX even before DG9J. With 40-50 years training in this advanced art, I'm convinced that FQY was able to jump at least 1 level ahead of RWX, FZ, CX and co.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ren Wo Xing
    Also, keep in mind that FQY himself admitted that LHC was much more intelligent/well adapted to DG9J than he was; the same Sword Breaking Stance which took him months to learn, LHC grasped some usable basics of in a night. The entire DG9J (save the ninth stance) LHC learned in probably less time than FQY learned simply the Sword Breaking Stance! Not to mention, LHC didn't merely 'practice' DG9J, he was forced, in unusual situations, to use it in a life and death situation many times, without any internal energy and thus solely relying on his proficiency with the sword. After all, the novel said repeatedly that the more/better martial artists LHC fought, the more he gained from it. So it's entirely feasible that one year of LHC's wandering the world is equal to ten years of the expected 'normal' progression of training.
    He learned enough in that one night to just overcome TBG. After TBG left, FQY made him relearn everything with him to ensure a solid foundation. It wasn't really stated how long FQY spent with LHC afterwards teaching him. But there is a big difference between knowing and mastery. During the fight at Shaolin, LHC was still somewhat iffy in his Palm-Breaking Stance. Although he knew it, he just didn't have enough experience/mastery. Anyhow, even with FQY claiming that LHC was extremely intelligent and a perfect student for DG9J, he told him that he needed 20 years to perfect DG9J to compete with the elites.
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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    FCY spent about 10 days with LHC. It's directly state immediately after when LHC was reflecting. However, they just went over the entire scripts and FCY showed him some stuff.

    As for LHC's level, LHC himself thought about going back to FCY to ask for pointers when he first encounter PXJ. There were also times when he thought that only FCY would be able to deal with XYZ. This does show that FCY demonstrated extremely high martial arts comprehension at least.


    As for RWX's rating of FCY, he also didn't think that FZ would beat him either



    Nonetheless, since I personally think DFBB overall was two levels higher than RWX, I still think that FCY isn't at his level. The argument that he's stronger than RWX seems fairly good although even that isn't completely certain.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 10-14-05 at 07:31 PM.

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