Mongol flunkies in HSDS working at cross purposes with one another?

[Ken Cheng]

It's been said that when an organization becomes too large and inefficient, the proverbial left arm doesn't know what the right arm is doing. Two different factions within the same organization unwittingly start working against each other - even as both factions believe they're doing what's in the best interests of the organization overall.

I wonder if this is what happened with the Mongols' flunkies in HSDS.

Consider this: Chan Yau Leung was helping Sing Kwun to take control of the Beggar's Union. Sing Kwun was working under the auspices of the Yuan Dynasty government. And yet, on the occassion when Chan Yau Leung introduced Sung Ching Sheu to the phony Chief See For Lung, Chiu Mun came with the Yeun Ming Elders to interfere with Chan's plans. The Yeun Ming Elders and Chan Yau Leung must have wondered what they were doing fighting each other and getting in each other's way. Both were in the employ of Chiu Mun's father (Mongol warlord Toghon Temur). Did they ever question why they were attacking their own allies?

[yittz]

Can you remind me what the Xuan ming elders were doing there in the first place?

I remember ZWJ being there to find out XieXun's whereabouts. Was ZM trying to rescue XX? or for something else?

Do XM and Cheng Kun's disciple know each other?

[Ken Cheng]

Can you remind me what the Xuan ming elders were doing there in the first place?

They were still employees of Chiu Mun's father and brother, and were under orders to help them "rescue" Chiu Mun from Cheung Mo Gei. Considering that they were the best martial artists under Toghon Temur's (Chiu Mun's father) command, that's only natural.

I remember ZWJ being there to find out XieXun's whereabouts. Was ZM trying to rescue XX? or for something else?

Yes. Chiu Mun wanted to help Cheung Mo Gei liberate his godfather and, perhaps more self-servingly, prevent Cheung Mo Gei from marrying Chow Chi Yerk that day.

Do XM and Cheng Kun's disciple know each other?

Yes. They all worked together for Toghon Temur, but in this case, they didn't seem to be communicating (seeing that they were working at cross-purposes).

[Ken Cheng]

Revisiting this topic: when there are two subgroups in an organization that are ostensibly working towards the same goal for the same overall organization, a problem emerges when the two groups don't communicate with each other. They could get lucky and have everything fall into place to support the overall goal, but more likely, they'll just get in each other's way. This is what happened with the Mongol regime in HSDS. Just what was Chagan Temur (Chiu Mun's father) thinking? He'd send Sing Kwun to do one thing for him, then he'd send Chiu Mun in the same general direction with different instructions. This is just poor planning and strategizing. What you end up with is massive confusion in the chain of command with people on the same general side working at cross-purposes. There was ZERO coordination between Sing Kwun and Chiu Mun, even though they were both working for the same organization towards the same goal.

No wonder the Mongols ended up getting thrown out of China within a few years of the end of HSDS. They had devolved from Genghis Khan's meticulous organization to their figurative left hand not knowing what their right hand was doing.

[pannonian]

I think the Chagan Temur set Cheng Kun to do one thing, but Zhao Min went ahead with her own agenda, independent of her father. The Xuanming elders were her assigned subordinates and bodyguards, so they'd do whatever she ordered them to do without hesitation or question.

[owbjhx]

They had devolved from Genghis Khan's meticulous organization to their figurative left hand not knowing what their right hand was doing.

There's actually a bit of a theme going in Yi Tian - and in Jinyong in general - about the decline of grand institutions brought about by their junior members' personal issues (particularly romantic issues). It happened to Quanzhen in Shen Diao, and Yi Tian shows it happening to E'Mei, Wudang, Shaolin, Huashan, Kunlun, the Ming Cult, and even the lineages of Yideng and Guo Jing. Zhao Min's pursuit of romance - rather than the interests of her Mongolian government - fits the overall picture. All this is consistent with a certain interpretation of Chinese history as a series of dynasties which flourish under their founders, but which inevitably decline in the increasingly less competent hands of the founders' successors.

[babyblues]

Was Cheng Kun really hired by Zhao Min's father? It was not stated in the book.

I thought cheng Kun had his own agenda, to destroy Ming Sect and to get himself as Wulin head (whether as a means to destroy Ming or his own ambition, i'm not sure).

The only link in the book was when in Shaolin after Cheng Kun was defeated, it turns out that Shaolin was surrounded by the Mongol Army. I can't really remember whether there was any indication that Cheng Kun was the informer and mastermind for this but if so, I would think that he probably only struck a deal with them as a safety net to claim control of Shaolin. I do not think he was working with them right from the beginning unless someone can point me to some contrary evidence.

[owbjhx]

Was Cheng Kun really hired by Zhao Min's father?

Yep!

In Chapter 26, it was mentioned that Fan Yao witnessed a meeting in Beijing between Cheng Kun and the Xuanming Elders, in which they plotted the destruction of Radiance Peak and then headed to the mansion of Lord Ruyang (aka Chahan Temu'er - Zhao Min's dad). There, Ruyang accepted CK's plan to destroy the Ming Cult.

[Trien Chieu]

It's been said that when an organization becomes too large and inefficient, the proverbial left arm doesn't know what the right arm is doing. Two different factions within the same organization unwittingly start working against each other - even as both factions believe they're doing what's in the best interests of the organization overall.

I wonder if this is what happened with the Mongols' flunkies in HSDS.

Consider this: Chan Yau Leung was helping Sing Kwun to take control of the Beggar's Union. Sing Kwun was working under the auspices of the Yuan Dynasty government. And yet, on the occassion when Chan Yau Leung introduced Sung Ching Sheu to the phony Chief See For Lung, Chiu Mun came with the Yeun Ming Elders to interfere with Chan's plans. The Yeun Ming Elders and Chan Yau Leung must have wondered what they were doing fighting each other and getting in each other's way. Both were in the employ of Chiu Mun's father (Mongol warlord Toghon Temur). Did they ever question why they were attacking their own allies?

I think they were doing their own things. They knew each other but don't respect each others.