Jin Yong's views on Genghis Khan

[pannonian]

The reality is you get what you earn from your hard work. What is yours is yours. If you put your hand on what is not belong to you, you will be arrested and face justice.

Hell no. Without the Mongol Empire, life was much much better. The Mongol Empire genocide countless millions and robbing/looting countless wealth from others.

Setting up shops and open restaurants require hard work and determination to succeed. Some will succeed, some will not but it's a right way to go instead of robbing/looting. Doing what is right is always more difficult compare to wrong doing.

What do you think of Confucian values, TC?

[Trien Chieu]

Not sure which world you live in but I would love to visit it one day.

I live in Canada where people work for a living. If you want something, you have to work for it. If you rob/loot, you will be arrested for your action and there are serious consequences.

What do you think of Confucian values, TC?

Confucian values teach people to be filial to their parents and grand parents.

[Ken Cheng]

I live in Canada where people work for a living.

That seems to be the case for EVERY country in the world. The only real difference is the kind of work being done.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

[QUOTE=Trien Chieu;1091233]I live in Canada where people work for a living. If you want something, you have to work for it. If you rob/loot, you will be arrested for your action and there are serious consequences.

And when the individual is more powerful than the state who will arrest them then?

[Trien Chieu]

And when the individual is more powerful than the state who will arrest them then?

It won't happen in first world countries where leaders are elected by the people. The leaders and their loved ones have to follow the laws just like everyone else.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

It won't happen in first world countries where leaders are elected by the people. The leaders and their loved ones have to follow the laws just like everyone else.

Please don't be naïve. We all know that politicians are the biggest crooks of all. How many backhanded deals do they make with big businesses, gangsters and dictators but never get caught for.

Even the election process and the law itself can be manipulated by the powerful. George Bush Junior's election was a classic example of electoral manipulation, and the American Legal system allows the President to issue pardons effectively giving him the right to break the law.

Every country 1st/ 3rd, past/present have loopholes which allow those powerful and smart enough the flaunt the law and get away with it. Its not something I like, but its the truth.

[Trien Chieu]

Please don't be naïve. We all know that politicians are the biggest crooks of all. How many backhanded deals do they make with big businesses, gangsters and dictators but never get caught for.

Life is imperfect. There are some got away with wrong doings but the ones that got caught, the law of the land applies to them as well.

Even the election process and the law itself can be manipulated by the powerful. George Bush Junior's election was a classic example of electoral manipulation, and the American Legal system allows the President to issue pardons effectively giving him the right to break the law.

George Bush Junior won elections fair and square. You may not like the guy and/or his policies, but he got elected by the people.

Every country 1st/ 3rd, past/present have loopholes which allow those powerful and smart enough the flaunt the law and get away with it. Its not something I like, but its the truth.

The system is imperfect but it's the best in human history. I haven't heard of any politicians or their loved ones got away with robbing and looting, not in Canada.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

I am sure those who benefitted from any empire/state of the past thought the exact same thing. That their system was perfect, no matter how many people had to be sacrifice to achieve it.

[Trien Chieu]

favour of the modern, principally Anglo-Saxon world.

What is wrong with modern Anglo-Saxon society? Don't you think it's way better to obtain wealth from hard work than to rob/loot from others? Yeah, I guess it's easier to rob/loot from others but it's morally wrong. Wealth obtain from wrong doing won't last. If you rob/loot from others, others can do the same thing to you.

I am sure those who benefitted from any empire/state of the past thought the exact same thing. That their system was perfect, no matter how many people had to be sacrifice to achieve it.

There is no sacrifice. What is wrong with everyone is equal under the law?

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

What is wrong with modern Anglo-Saxon society? Don't you think it's way better to obtain wealth from hard work than to rob/loot from others? Yeah, I guess it's easier to rob/loot from others but it's morally wrong. Wealth obtain from wrong doing won't last. If you rob/loot from others, others can do the same thing to you.



There is no sacrifice. What is wrong with everyone is equal under the law?

No sacrifice. I am sure the Native Americans would agree with that view. Surely the thoudsands of African Slaves gladly gave up their liberties for your best system in history. Of course the Chinese working on the transcontinental railway died with smiles on their lips when they got blew up.

Just because you don't make the sacrifice doesn't mean there weren't any.

You argue that wealth gained by morally incorrect ways will never last. However the 'civilisation' you claim will last forever, has its wealth based on stealing lands from the native, committing virtual genocide on their culture, slave labour and complete disregard for human life.

I have nothing against Equality under the law, provided it can be acheived in practice and not just theory.

[Trien Chieu]

No sacrifice. I am sure the Native Americans would agree with that view.

Native Americans lost their land, but they have been receiving a lot back in return. They don't have to pay income taxes, ect. The current system favour them over all others. They should be happy about their situation.

Surely the thoudsands of African Slaves gladly gave up their liberties for your best system in history.

They have Obama, the first black president. They have the NAACP. They have the powerful Race Card. They can support their thug openly, something other races can't. The media is overly favour them. What else do they want?

Of course the Chinese working on the transcontinental railway died with smiles on their lips when they got blew up.

They agreed to do the work and got paid accordingly. They always can refuse to do the work.

Just because you don't make the sacrifice doesn't mean there weren't any.

Work and get paid. Not sacrifice.

You argue that wealth gained by morally incorrect ways will never last. However the 'civilisation' you claim will last forever, has its wealth based on stealing lands from the native, committing virtual genocide on their culture, slave labour and complete disregard for human life.

The Native has been receiving many many times more than what they lost. They should be happy with their situation.

I have nothing against Equality under the law, provided it can be acheived in practice and not just theory.

Not 100% yet. In Canada, the systems favour Native. In US, the system favours Black. However, Canada and US systems are still among the best in the world.

[Doc Kwok]

Native Americans lost their land, but they have been receiving a lot back in return. They don't have to pay income taxes, ect. The current system favour them over all others. They should be happy about their situation.

The Native has been receiving many many times more than what they lost. They should be happy with their situation.

What if they wanted to keep their land, and did not want your money?

They have Obama, the first black president. They have the NAACP. They have the powerful Race Card. They can support their thug openly, something other races can't. The media is overly favour them. What else do they want?

Not to be shot to pieces at the slightest pretext by trigger-happy cops?

They agreed to do the work and got paid accordingly. They always can refuse to do the work.

And eat what? Dirt? The north-west wind?

Not 100% yet. In Canada, the systems favour Native. In US, the system favours Black. However, Canada and US systems are still among the best in the world.

So what do you do when the law says that your ethnic group has no (or greatly reduced) rights?

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

So your argument is that a state/civilisation can commit any atrocities they like, so long as they give back monetary compensation.

You also seemed to have neglected my question of 'if wealth gained by immorrral means cannot not last then how can state/civilisation last forever if the foundation of its wealth was gained by immoral means.

[Trien Chieu]

What if they wanted to keep their land, and did not want your money?

The vast majority enjoy their lives. They do not want their land back.

Not to be shot to pieces at the slightest pretext by trigger-happy cops?

Are you talking about The Little Angel Michael Brown, who robbed the store, beat up the cop and got shot? What do you expect when you beat up a cop? If Michael Brown was not black, there would be no protest. If he wasn't back, he would not have all the media coverage, his father would not have the opportunity to address the UN. Talk about crime, they got killed by their brothas who share their skin color way more than by the white cops. What do you think about all the rioting and looting in Ferguson? It's all good heh.

And eat what? Dirt? The north-west wind?

Everyone needs to work for a living. If they don't like it, they always can go back.

So what do you do when the law says that your ethnic group has no (or greatly reduced) rights?

Which ethnic group has no right? Can you be more specific?

So your argument is that a state/civilisation can commit any atrocities they like, so long as they give back monetary compensation.

No, life is imperfect. Mistakes were made by the government but they corrected. What else do you want them to do?

You also seemed to have neglected my question of 'if wealth gained by immorrral means cannot not last then how can state/civilisation last forever if the foundation of its wealth was gained by immoral means.

Again, life is imperfect. The government did make mistakes but they corrected. The victims receive many many times the amount that they lost. The government did not rob/loot anything from others. Wealth is in the hand of the citizens, not the government. If you think the governments of US/Canada are not good, can you tell me where is better?

[Doc Kwok]

The vast majority enjoy their lives. They do not want their land back.

So they never had a choice in the matter. Thought so.

Are you talking about The Little Angel Michael Brown, who robbed the store, beat up the cop and got shot? What do you expect when you beat up a cop? If Michael Brown was not black, there would be no protest. If he wasn't back, he would not have all the media coverage, his father would not have the opportunity to address the UN. Talk about crime, they got killed by their brothas who share their skin color way more than by the white cops. What do you think about all the rioting and looting in Ferguson? It's all good heh.

This one-sided description says a lot about where you get your news from.

Everyone needs to work for a living. If they don't like it, they always can go back.

Can they? How? Swim?

Which ethnic group has no right? Can you be more specific?

Why don't you try reading up on the history of the 20th century and tell me? It wasn't that long ago.

No, life is imperfect. Mistakes were made by the government but they corrected. What else do you want them to do?

Again, life is imperfect. The government did make mistakes but they corrected. The victims receive many many times the amount that they lost. The government did not rob/loot anything from others. Wealth is in the hand of the citizens, not the government. If you think the governments of US/Canada are not good, can you tell me where is better?

So if the cops come around tonight on a bad tip and shoot everyone in your house but you, then paid you ten million dollars in compensation, you would be just fine with that?

[tape]

TC,

I think most would agree if you had to choose to be born as an average citizen in any time period, being one in modern Western society would be best on average. But there's no need to pretend past transgressions weren't morally wrong and that the government now and then didn't take advantage of certain people in order to get ahead.

Most nations now would still act rather selfishly and possibly even barbarically if they had the power to do so. I don't think humans and nations have fundamentally changed...if a nation developed some sort of ultra all powerful weapon I have no doubts they'd leverage it into being an all powerful despotic nation.

[Ken Cheng]

I sort of wonder if Jin Yong's characterization of Temujin/Genghis Khan in LOCH is anything close to the persona of the actual historical figure. It's not like we have any primary sources around today to interview on the subject.

[pannonian]

What is wrong with modern Anglo-Saxon society? Don't you think it's way better to obtain wealth from hard work than to rob/loot from others? Yeah, I guess it's easier to rob/loot from others but it's morally wrong. Wealth obtain from wrong doing won't last. If you rob/loot from others, others can do the same thing to you.



There is no sacrifice. What is wrong with everyone is equal under the law?

I suggest you read some history books and educate yourself about the respective peoples. Right now, you neither know enough about British history to comment knowledgably on Anglo-Saxon mores, nor about Chinese history to comment on Chinese mores. While I'm no historian, I have access to enough living knowledge to make nonsense of your uber-Chinese stance, and history as taught in the UK leaves no illusions about the past.

[pannonian]

I sort of wonder if Jin Yong's characterization of Temujin/Genghis Khan in LOCH is anything close to the persona of the actual historical figure. It's not like we have any primary sources around today to interview on the subject.

Probably the closest we have to a portrayal of Genghis the person would be the letters of Qiu Chuji, who had a high opinion of the khan.