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Thread: Ranking of DGSD heroes below 4th level

  1. #1
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Default Ranking of DGSD heroes below 4th level

    Rough Example:

    Level 1: Sweeper Monk (Xuzhu)
    Level 2: Xiao Yao Elders
    Level 3: Xiao Feng, Murong Bo
    Level 4: Murong Fu, Duan Zhengming

    After the 4th level, ranking becomes a bit fuzzy. I don't think we have ever compiled a detailed ranking of people like Murong Fu's servants, Duan Zhengchun's servants, Duan Zhengchun himself, the 3 lower Evils, etc. Perhaps we simply don't have enough information about their abilities, but perhaps we can do better too.

    Where does Duan Zhengchun belong? He is often omitted from the ranking system altogether. One part of the novel made him equal to, or below, Murong Fu's servants, and another part of the novel made him stronger than the 3rd Evil. So perhaps:

    Duan Zhengchun's servants <= 3 Evils < Duan Zhengchun =< Murong Fu's servants?

    Plus there are people like You Tanzhi's father, Zuo Bufan, the old woman servant of Tonglao, and a bunch of previous generation folks involved with the Xiao Yuanshan incident.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  2. #2
    Senior Member shen long's Avatar
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    do YTZ and DCQ belong to L4?

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    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
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    are DY and XZ level 2

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    i think duan zheng chun is more powerful than mur rongfus servants but just shy of mu rong fu himself and dusn zheng ming

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    I also think DZC>>MRF lackies

    DZC lasted pretty long against 1st evil whereas MRF's servants, together 4v1, were getting their arse kicked pretty easily and almost effortlessly. Even with MRF at 5v1, 1st evil still had the upper hand (further emphasising the gap between north xiaofeng and south murong).

    What about the other 3 evils vs MRF's four servants? 3rd evil couldnt last more than a few stances against 1st evil, buth MRF's servants, individually did not appear to be able to do so either. Any other evidence to suggest one group is better than the other? Also within the group skills vary - 1st servant>2nd > the other two, while 2nd evil=3rd>4th.

    To PJ: By DZC's servants are you refering to the useless 4 that resembles YiDeng's 4 disciples? They are significantly weaker than the evils, even to the degree of one level below (each can handle 2v1, and they are not much better than DZC's lovers). What about the ones under DZM, the emperor? The one with the iron flute seems more powerful than the evils and similar to DZC, while the other three (inc digger and one with good lightness) are similar to the evils.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    There were a few Beggar's Union Elders in DGSD who were on par with the three lesser Evils and Mo Yung F'uk's henchmen, weren't there? In every Jin Yong story that features the Beggar's Union, there seems to always be a few union elders who have fairly good mid-level martial arts skills.

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Yes true, four of the elders were similar to bao and feng. The other two elders - punishment and teaching would be similar to the 1st and 2nd servant. Also in the mix is the dead deputy clan leader Ma, and Xu elder.

    Where does shaolin monks lie with respect to this level? Xuan generation are better no?

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    I also think DZC>>MRF lackies

    DZC lasted pretty long against 1st evil whereas MRF's servants, together 4v1, were getting their arse kicked pretty easily and almost effortlessly. Even with MRF at 5v1, 1st evil still had the upper hand (further emphasising the gap between north xiaofeng and south murong).
    Well, I think it's not clear how long each battle lasted. The Duan Zhengchun vs Duan Yanqing fight consisted of at least 60 stances, but no length description was given to the Murong Fu vs Duan Yanqing fight. I agree with your assertion; these examples make Duan Zhengchun look better. Nevertheless, my assessment of Duan Zhengchun < MRF's servants is based on Xiao Feng's thinking, having met both contenders. He said that one of Murong Fu's servants, Gongye Gan, can take on 3 of his palms, while he did not think Duan Zhengchun could withstand even 1 of his palms. This would make Gongye Gan seem better than Duan Zhengchun, although It's true that Xiao Feng was trying to impose maximum damage on Duan and not Gongye. Perhaps Gongye is better than the other servants of Murong.

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Well, I think it's not clear how long each battle lasted. The Duan Zhengchun vs Duan Yanqing fight consisted of at least 60 stances, but no length description was given to the Murong Fu vs Duan Yanqing fight. I agree with your assertion; these examples make Duan Zhengchun look better. Nevertheless, my assessment of Duan Zhengchun < MRF's servants is based on Xiao Feng's thinking, having met both contenders. He said that one of Murong Fu's servants, Gongye Gan, can take on 3 of his palms, while he did not think Duan Zhengchun could withstand even 1 of his palms. This would make Gongye Gan seem better than Duan Zhengchun, although It's true that Xiao Feng was trying to impose maximum damage on Duan and not Gongye. Perhaps Gongye is better than the other servants of Murong.
    I always thought that Zheng Baichuan was the toughest, since he was big brother. Having said that, Feng Boer looked to be a better fighter than Bao Butong, but that's probably because he fought first, while Bao always talked.

    That's one thing I disliked about DGSD 97 and 04, both versions ommitted Zheng and Gongye, which made Murong Fu's cronies less likeable, as those two were more level-headed, fair, and polite in their dealings.

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    To PJ: Based on XF's assessment, it does appear that MRF's servant(s) are better than DZC.

    Is it possible that Gongye was more suited to take XF's palm than DZC? Did XF go easy on Gongye on first two palms?

    Possibly 1st evil was toying was DZC or DZC more suited to fight him?

    What about the flute person under Duan Zheng Ming? He was impressive against 2nd evil. Where is he placed?

    To Ian Liew: agree, the 04 did so well in many other things, but series always seem to lack people to fill 'minor' character roles in the novel. I also wished for the inclusion of all the DZC's servants. I think they tried to fill 8 people with 4/5 actors.

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    DYQ was a practitioner of orthodox and heterodox arts. When fighting with DZC he had to use Duan-family sword techniques to prove that he was worthy of heir to throne. Besides Yiyang Finger, orthodox arts may not be his strength in battle. During that time iron staffs were his choice of weaponry. But by the time he fought with Murong Fu andhis henchmen (approx 2-3 yrs later), there was an absence of his original weapon; instead he was wielding steel canes. Thereby we can only arrive to arbitrary conclusions from this like he improved significantly ove those few years or the replacement in material benefited him greatly.

    As for the ranking…In 3rd Edition, XF was confident in his own ability that it would take 5 or 6 DYQ level fighters before he can succumb to defeat. If his judgment were to be compared with one from a Xuan-generation monk (that XF could reach a draw with 3 Xuan-generation monks which includes the higher-ranked Xuannan) then the eminent monks of Shaolin should be of a higher level than those of Tianlong Monastery (excluding Zen Master Kurong of course). In addition to that, in terms actual of fighting potential, Xuannan should be greater than Ding Chunqiu; DCQ could only win by using internal poison.

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    5-6!!! 'shock'. Comparing S-MRF to N-XF is nearly comparing Qiu Chu Ji to a Great.

    Based on the Shaolin fight with YTZ, DCQ, I always imagined MRF equivalent to 1/2 or 1/3 XF.

  13. #13
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    5-6!!! 'shock'. Comparing S-MRF to N-XF is nearly comparing Qiu Chu Ji to a Great.
    I'd say it's closer to comparing end-of-LOCH Gwok Jing to a Great. I don't think it would have taken seven Mo Yung F'uks using a special formation to defeat Kiu Fung. Three or four of him probably would have sufficed.

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    I'd say it's closer to comparing end-of-LOCH Gwok Jing to a Great. I don't think it would have taken seven Mo Yung F'uks using a special formation to defeat Kiu Fung. Three or four of him probably would have sufficed.
    If it takes 5-6 DYQs to defeat XF, that doesnt sync. DYQ is quite a lot better then MRF and I can't imagine 5-6 MRF's not overwhelming XF.

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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Maybe the synergistic strength of the MRF/YTZ combination was far greater than we had given credit for?

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Let's keep the second edition content separate from the third edition content, shall we? After all, in the second edition, nowhere did Xiao Feng think that he could take on 6 Duan Yanqing's.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Let's keep the second edition content separate from the third edition content, shall we? After all, in the second edition, nowhere did Xiao Feng think that he could take on 6 Duan Yanqing's.
    As highly as I think of Kiu Fung's fighting abilities, I *still* don't think he could actually take six Deun Yin Hings in *any* edition of DGSD (the newest is only the second edition, isn't it? I think there was only one edition of DGSD prior to the recent update because it was one of the last new novels Jin Yong wrote and he revised the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY in the 1970s to accommodate the "new" info from DGSD). Deun Yin Hing was no pushover.

  18. #18
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    the newest is only the second edition, isn't it?
    The third edition is already out. Athena summarized the changes in the sticky topic.

  19. #19
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    The third edition is already out. Athena summarized the changes in the sticky topic.
    What I mean is that only one edition of DGSD was published prior to the current revision. Unlike the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY and other novels, which were written in the late 1950s and early 1960s, DGSD wasn't written until the late 1960s. Thus, in the early 1970s when Jin Yong revised his older novels, DGSD wasn't included because it was still too recent and there was nothing he wanted to change or add at the time. It wasn't until the 2000s that he decided that DGSD needed a first revision along with a second revision for most of his other novels.

    At least, that's what I've been led to understand.

  20. #20
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Well, I believe DGSD has also been previously revised. An expert on the other forum (Edmund Lau?) said that in the first edition of DGSD, there was a lot more gore, but JY removed some of those in the second edition. I interpret that as JY revised DGSD in the second edition. Furthermore, a member of this forum Temujin has translated part of DGSD from the first edition. I assumed this would be different from the second edition.

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