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Thread: Were Yeung Teet Sum and Gwok Siu Teen actually wulin men?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Were Yeung Teet Sum and Gwok Siu Teen actually wulin men?

    The fathers of Gwok Jing and Yeung Hong, Gwok Siu Teen and Yeung Teet Sum respectively, were definitely martial artists. They each had good fighting skills that made them far more formidable than average men. Nevertheless, they were far weaker than any other fighters in LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES (indeed, they were among the weakest martial artists in the entire Jin Yong canon). Not only were they not comparable to the Greats, but even comparative wulin mediocrites of their era such as the Gong Nam 7 Freaks towered over them. As such, should Gwok Siu Teen and Yeung Teet Sum be considered wulin men despite their martial arts skills? They seemed quite ignorant of wulin affairs. They knew who Yau Chui Gei was, but I don't think they'd even heard of the Greats. It's hard to classify Gwok Siu Teen and Yeung Teet Sum because they weren't military men either. They were patriots, but neither was a soldier of the Sung army (and as soldiers, they'd be super-soldiers because their fighting skills were much better than any common Sung soldier's). They seemed to be fringe martial artists...not wulin men, but not soldiers either. Where do they fit?

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    Senior Member shen long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    The fathers of Gwok Jing and Yeung Hong, Gwok Siu Teen and Yeung Teet Sum respectively, were definitely martial artists. They each had good fighting skills that made them far more formidable than average men. Nevertheless, they were far weaker than any other fighters in LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES (indeed, they were among the weakest martial artists in the entire Jin Yong canon). Not only were they not comparable to the Greats, but even comparative wulin mediocrites of their era such as the Gong Nam 7 Freaks towered over them. As such, should Gwok Siu Teen and Yeung Teet Sum be considered wulin men despite their martial arts skills? They seemed quite ignorant of wulin affairs. They knew who Yau Chui Gei was, but I don't think they'd even heard of the Greats. It's hard to classify Gwok Siu Teen and Yeung Teet Sum because they weren't military men either. They were patriots, but neither was a soldier of the Sung army (and as soldiers, they'd be super-soldiers because their fighting skills were much better than any common Sung soldier's). They seemed to be fringe martial artists...not wulin men, but not soldiers either. Where do they fit?
    They are simply peasants much like the other local folks except that they are skilled in fighting.wulin folks mainly have to fight to earn their keeps I think.

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    Senior Member SkineePanda's Avatar
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    I think it was mentioned that they made a living in jianghu before settling down with their wives. They even heard of Qiu Chuji's name and his skills, so they must have spent some time in wulin.
    Underneath the fluffly, cudly exterior lies the tormented and complex creature known as the panda.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Was either Yeung or Gwok at any point of his life a soldier in the Sung army? They were fervent patriots, but didn't serve in the Sung military in the war against the Jin.

    Also, although martial artists, their wulin experience seemed very atypical for wulin people. It was very typical for *average* people, but not like a wulin lifestyle at all.

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    I always wondered how they would do against Han Xiaoying, Quan Jinfa or one of the other younger Seven Freaks. They might be able to hold their own, and if so, could very well have had a small wulin career before that. They probably settled down into peasant life purely for the sake of starting their families.

    Two sworn brothers, going around doing good, killing off the odd Jin bully here and there, suddenly they rescue a couple of beautiful maidens, then decide to settle down (since they're getting disillusioned with what they can actually do for the good of the country anyway) ... sounds pretty normal for the less ambitious type of adventurer.

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    How would they fare against the Demons of the Yellow River, or Guo Jing before he left Mongolia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    I always wondered how they would do against Han Xiaoying, Quan Jinfa or one of the other younger Seven Freaks. They might be able to hold their own, and if so, could very well have had a small wulin career before that. They probably settled down into peasant life purely for the sake of starting their families.
    From what I've been told, even the two weakest Freaks would totally own both Yeung and Gwok. Now the Freaks were better fighters than they usually get credit for. After all, the seven of them once defeated a group of one hundred fighters. They only appeared weak compared to the likes of the Greats and Mui Chiu Fung. Still, if Yeung and Gwok couldn't match up with even the weaker Freaks, it's difficult to imagine how they could hold their own in wulin. But martial arts *was* their stock and trade. It's really odd.

    Two sworn brothers, going around doing good, killing off the odd Jin bully here and there, suddenly they rescue a couple of beautiful maidens.
    Well, Yeung Teet Sum rescued a beautiful maiden (Pau Sik Yerk); Gwok Siu Teen only managed an average-looking, but sensible and good charactered woman.


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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    How would they fare against the Demons of the Yellow River, or Guo Jing before he left Mongolia?
    That's a good question. In the world of LOCH, that's pretty much bottom-rung wulin martial arts. If Yeung and Gwok couldn't handle this level of fighter, then what were they doing in wulin?

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    From what I've been told, even the two weakest Freaks would totally own both Yeung and Gwok.
    I don't think that it would be quite as one-sided. The only indication we have of their fighting ability was their common fights with Qiu Chuji, and both were beaten fairly effortlessly by him. Qiu might have been toying with Yang, I suppose..

    The older Yang Tiexin wasn't really a good indication as I remember somewhere that he was injured, and never really recovered, which means he wasn't as good as he was in the younger days.

    Would the Yellow River bandits be weaker than Ouyang Ke's disciples? Much uglier and less elegant, for sure, but probably not weaker either, and Ouyang's disciples were more than capable of running around wulin creating mischief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    I don't think that it would be quite as one-sided. The only indication we have of their fighting ability was their common fights with Qiu Chuji, and both were beaten fairly effortlessly by him.
    Here's another possible measure: at no point of his life did Yeung Hong have strong enough martial arts to defeat any of the Gong Nam 7 Freaks in a straight-up, fair fight (although he was able to murder Freak # 3, Hon Bo Kui, by catching him off-guard on Peach Blossom Island). Yeung Hong was, however, able to best his biological father in man-to-man combat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Here's another possible measure: at no point of his life did Yeung Hong have strong enough martial arts to defeat any of the Gong Nam 7 Freaks in a straight-up, fair fight (although he was able to murder Freak # 3, Hon Bo Kui, by catching him off-guard on Peach Blossom Island). Yeung Hong was, however, able to best his biological father in man-to-man combat.
    Another measure of their avility would be how long Nan Xiren and Yang Kang lasted against Ouyang Feng's poison. The Freak actually earned Ouyang Feng's respect for his endurance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    From what I've been told, even the two weakest Freaks would totally own both Yeung and Gwok. Now the Freaks were better fighters than they usually get credit for. After all, the seven of them once defeated a group of one hundred fighters. They only appeared weak compared to the likes of the Greats and Mui Chiu Fung. Still, if Yeung and Gwok couldn't match up with even the weaker Freaks, it's difficult to imagine how they could hold their own in wulin. But martial arts *was* their stock and trade. It's really odd.



    Well, Yeung Teet Sum rescued a beautiful maiden (Pau Sik Yerk); Gwok Siu Teen only managed an average-looking, but sensible and good charactered woman.

    Is this a 3rd edition change? In the 2nd edition, it wasn't mentioned that Yeung met Bao by rescuing her.

    Gwok's wife was pretty unremarkable in appearance from what I infer. Otherwise she probably would have been a target of rape at some pt in her ordeal.
    This account is retired.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002 View Post
    Is this a 3rd edition change? In the 2nd edition, it wasn't mentioned that Yeung met Bao by rescuing her.
    I think it's just Ian waxing imaginative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    That's a good question. In the world of LOCH, that's pretty much bottom-rung wulin martial arts. If Yeung and Gwok couldn't handle this level of fighter, then what were they doing in wulin?
    Ke Zhen E stated that the River Demons had "some reputation" and that he's heard of them. That means that among the hundreds of thousands of wulin people, Ke Zhen E has heard them mentioned enough to recall upon seeing them.

    Also, the 7 Freaks could very well be in the top one thousand among hundreds of thousands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sarakoth View Post
    Ke Zhen E stated that the River Demons had "some reputation" and that he's heard of them. That means that among the hundreds of thousands of wulin people, Ke Zhen E has heard them mentioned enough to recall upon seeing them.

    Also, the 7 Freaks could very well be in the top one thousand among hundreds of thousands.
    Lu Guanying's first teacher was Reverend Kumu, therefore Kumu > early Lu Guanying.

    When Kumu couldn't handle Qiu Chuji, he sent for his martial brother Jiaomu for help, therefore Jiaomu > Kumu > early Lu Guanying.

    When Jiaomu couldn't handle Qiu Chuji either, he sent for the Freaks for help, therefore Freaks > Jiaomu > Kumu > early Lu Guanying.

    The Freaks were probably around Beggar Clan elders' level in ability, ie. not bad at all, and quite possibly the most distinguished fighters in their locality. Their skills weren't bad, but their fighting instinct was rather better, judging by how they adapted to various setbacks in their fight with Mei Chaofeng and the Jin flunkies at the Zhao palace.

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Here's another possible measure: at no point of his life did Yeung Hong have strong enough martial arts to defeat any of the Gong Nam 7 Freaks in a straight-up, fair fight (although he was able to murder Freak # 3, Hon Bo Kui, by catching him off-guard on Peach Blossom Island). Yeung Hong was, however, able to best his biological father in man-to-man combat.
    I thought that was because the older Yang never recovered from his injuries sustained from the arrow he received, and was always sickly after. Or was that just TVB's interpretation?

    I can't imagine Yang Kang losing to, say, Han Xiaoying, in a fair fight. She might win through sheer experience and streetwiseness, but in terms of ability Yang Kang had some pretty decent grounding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    I thought that was because the older Yang never recovered from his injuries sustained from the arrow he received, and was always sickly after. Or was that just TVB's interpretation?
    The 1982 adaptation never dealt with the issue of Yeung Teet Sum's injury. When he reemerged after eighteen years, his skills were as good as they ever had been...good enough to overcome soldiers by the dozen, but pretty much useless against all wulin martial artists.

    I can't imagine Yang Kang losing to, say, Han Xiaoying, in a fair fight. She might win through sheer experience and streetwiseness, but in terms of ability Yang Kang had some pretty decent grounding.
    For reasons that have not been fully explained, Yeung Hong's martial arts never developed to a very high level...not even after Mui Chiu Fung taught him some rudimentary 9 Yum White Bone Claws. From what I understand, the TV series made Yeung Hong's martial arts better than they ever were in the novel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    I can't imagine Yang Kang losing to, say, Han Xiaoying, in a fair fight. She might win through sheer experience and streetwiseness, but in terms of ability Yang Kang had some pretty decent grounding.
    The only named martial artists I recall Yang Kang ever doing well against were Guo Jing, who came off slightly worse off in a draw at Mu Nianci's Joust for a Spouse, and Lu Guanying, who was several levels below the Freaks before Lu Chengfeng started teaching him. Given Yang Kang's inability to best Guo Jing (who was still below the Freaks, judging by the events at the Zhao palace), it's hard to see him beating even Han Xiaoying. Also, let's not forget that she was not much older at the start of the novel than Guo Jing and Yang Kang were at the scheduled time of the duel, and was already at least a reasonably respected figure in her own right, even without the near-top level skills Yang Kang had access to.

    IMHO the Freaks deserve a great deal more respect than they usually get.

    PS. How would Guo Xiaotian and Yang Tiexin match up against Lu Guanying, or his underlings? Or for that matter, the poor sods in the Dragon Gate Escort Agency who were massacred by Yin Susu? Perhaps the sworn brothers worked as protective escorts of some kind before they settled down?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    IMHO the Freaks deserve a great deal more respect than they usually get.
    I think a problem is that people know "7 freaks = 1 Qui Chuji" and "7 Quanzhen elders = 1 Ouyang Feng" so they think the transitive property applies and a Freak is 1/49th of a Greats level fighter. When in fact there are Problems with doing that kind of math. (One of the most obvious of which is that Qui Chuji is accounting for more than just 1/7th of the Quanzhen Elders' power total.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhudsui View Post
    I think a problem is that people know "7 freaks = 1 Qui Chuji" and "7 Quanzhen elders = 1 Ouyang Feng" so they think the transitive property applies and a Freak is 1/49th of a Greats level fighter. When in fact there are Problems with doing that kind of math. (One of the most obvious of which is that Qui Chuji is accounting for more than just 1/7th of the Quanzhen Elders' power total.)
    There's also the fact that the Cheun Jen 7 Disciples were only as powerful as a Great if they used their Big Dipper Formation. If they just tried to swarm a Great with their numbers, they'd get their heads handed to them.

    Still, even if the Freaks are 1/100 of a Great, that's probably better than much of wulin.

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