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Thread: Difference between high internal energy and pure internal energy

  1. #1
    Senior Member bloodstar's Avatar
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    Default Difference between high internal energy and pure internal energy

    Hi everyone,

    I was re-reading HSDS and during the ZWJ's first encounter with the 3 Shaolin Du monks there is this line in the passage:

    张无忌暗暗惊讶,见黑索挥动时无声无息,使索者的内力返照空明,功力精纯,不露
    棱角,非自己所能及,心下骇异:圆真说道,我义父由他三位太师叔看守,看来便是这三
    位老僧了,功力当真深厚之极!

    "ZWJ was astonished to see the three whips moving without producing any sound. The internal energy of the whip wielders were pure and flawless to an extent that ZWJ could not match, and he thought: ' YuanZhen said his three grand-martial uncles were guarding godfather. This three elderly monks must be them. Their internal energy are extremely deep and profound!' "

    My impression was that ZWJ had the highest level of internal energy in HSDS (not entirely sure of this either, can someone confirm?). But it seems that his internal energy was massive but not entirely pure? So what's the subtle difference between having pure energy and high internal energy? In a duel between two people with similar levels of internal energy, would the person with a "purer" internal energy win? Or could someone with lower but purer internal energy defeat another with higher level of energy?

    Not sure if this has been discussed before but would like to hear what you guys think.

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    Interesting point. I went back to read this passage, but i didn't find the discussion on pure internal energy. Although, i want to point out that ZWJ doesn't have the highest internal energy. As for high internal energy and pure internal energy, i am not sure what the difference is beside experiences. By reasoning through what i read in the book, i would say ZWJ has a massiave amount of internal energy because he has 9 Yang Chi (QUANTITY), but because he is young the QUALITY of his chi isn't as developed as the 3 monks. I think in one of the novels there is an explanation of the level of a chi-user. So in the first stage, you learn your chi; then as years go by, you move on the second stage as you gain more chi (where ZWJ is at); the ultimate stage is achieved when your chi becomes pure (where the monks are). Notice how the monks' whips make no sound as they move through the air. It's a sign of maturity of your chi. Does that make sense?
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    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    I think what he is asking is, in a battle, effectively what advantages does high quality qi have over low quality qi, and how important is quality as compared to quantity.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    The keyword is efficiency.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    Its hard to find examples for pure beating non-pure with similar internal (probably because non-pure usually makes it up with aggression, raw power, such as YG vs YD). But JY constantly praises pureness and how it achieves certain feats that may no be useful in battle.

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    I also think that the person with the purer internal energy can employ it more readily rather than having to "charge up".

    But to echo Candide I think it can be used more efficiently. You can do things with less energy. Instead of crashing waves from the ocean, think of the power of the tide in a narrow channel. Less aggressive but still alot of power focused in time and space.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    JY constantly praises pureness and how it achieves certain feats that may no be useful in battle.
    He gave plenty of examples but they are very subtle.

    Example: HSDS - ZSF v.s ZWJ.

    In chapter 23-24, the Wudang battle, it was said that ZWJ's energy was very high and abundant, like ocean tides, but it wasn't as pure and refined as ZSF. We can reasonably assume that both have reached the same level (quantity) of inner energy, but one is more refined than the other.

    ZSF after being severely injured (his internal organs were injured, he was vomitting blood and he was 110) could easily tap (almost Sweeper Monk-like) a top fighter (around the 4 Ming Cult Lords level) to death, crushing his skull into pieces. ZWJ was very badly injured (after he learnt 9 Yang) a couple times and he could hardly move (at least not immediately) afterwards, let alone killing a top fighter.

    ZSF put his hand on a Xuan Ming elder's shoulder and the guy couldn't move, knowing that his internal organs would be destroyed if he did. ZWJ never could perform anything that subtle.

    ZWJ felt that his 9 Yang was drained rapidly in the 1st fight with the 3 Shaolin Elders. This is a sign of his energy being rather rough (understandable considering the circumstance he achieved it).

    Example: GJ v.s the Mongol fighters - XF v.s MRF and YTZ.

    Note: this is not to say GJ could beat XF or vice versa, it's all relative.

    GJ could last far longer against fighters of the same level (or close to) as his, than XF could manage.

    ============

    If two fighters who have the same level of inner energy, one pure and one not, fight each other, they would have to use roughly the same amount to withstand/block one another's strike so being pure or not wouldn't be a too big advantage. Yi Deng v.s Yang Guo for instance would be decided on stamina, not whose energy is purer.

    However, if they were to fight lesser fighters, the one with purer energy would need less effort whereas the other one would waste more energy. If they had to fight a big group of lesser fighters, the one with purer energy would get a better result.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    If I remember correctly, the 3 Du monks (together) matched ZWJ equally in a test of internal strength and they had to pull back their internal powers together, little by little so as not to kill each other. So, even in a test of internal power, pure doesn't have an advantage over aggressive but less pure.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    That was after ZWJ broke their diamond formation and they were more or less fighting as individuals. Their total inner energy was actually less than ZWJ's.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Senior Member bloodstar's Avatar
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    So to sum up Candide's explanation... basically having purer internal energy means being able to use the energy much more efficiently... however a higher efficiency rate MAY or MAY NOT provide an edge over your opponent in battle because there are many other variables to consider (e.g. his internal energy level in relation to your own, the number of opponents etc.)? If it is the same level or higher than your own (regardless of purity) the higher efficiency rate may not give you an edge.

    这时三僧已联成一气,成为以三敌八之势。少林三僧奋力御敌,心下都不禁
    暗暗叫苦,与这八人相斗,再久也不致落败,只须黑索再缩短八尺,便组成了金刚伏魔
    圈,别说八名敌人,便是十六人,三十二人,那也攻不进来

    This line says that the 3 Du monks would not be defeated by the eight experts no matter how long the duration of the battle is going to be. So despite their old age, the reason why the monks could be so "durable" in combat is that their internal energy were very pure i.e. very high efficiency rate? Someone who has the same quantity of energy as them but not as pure would not last as long.

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    what exactly is the Shaolin Temple "exchange nerve technique"?
    how does it effect the flow of internal energy?

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    the three du monks were on par with zhang wuji, but their energy was more pure as in being equal in yin and yang, so only the barest minumum energy is required to excute a move and the energy can be taken back and controled more easily. if wuji sent out his power, he would have to use more energy then the three monks and use more effort to take it back.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
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