What was the busiest era of wulin activity?

[Ken Cheng]

Wuxia stories are set within the context of Chinese history. Which era of Chinese history, overall, saw the most wulin action in wuxia novels? In Jin Yong's universe, the 300 years of the Sung Dynasty (both Northern Sung and Southern Sung eras) seemed to be the busiest, while in Gu Long's universe, the Ming Dynasty (also about 300 years in duration) seemed to be a whirlwind of activity.

NOTE: we're not talking about which era had the best martial arts/artists, but which era was busiest in terms of volume of wulin activity.

[Dennis Chen]

The Qing Dynasty was also pretty active in Jin Yong's universe.

[PJ]

agree with Dennis about JY.

1) Qing dynasty, by the sheer number of stories set in that era: Duke of Mount Deer, Book & Sword, Blade-dance of the Two Lovers (cooly translated title by Athena), White Horse Neighing in West Wind, Secret of the Priceless Treasure, and the 2 Flying Fox novels.

2) Song dynasty - DGSD, LOCH, ROCH, and the beginning of HSDS

3) Ming - Ode to Gallantry, Crimson Sabre, Smiling Proud Wanderer

[Whsie]

Well, in the JY universe, I also figured out that you couldn't tie all the books together. For example, LOCH, ROCH, HSDS defitnitely had ties with DSGS. XAJH also had ties with DSGS because it explained Xi Xin Da Fa. However, this doesn't mean that XAJH and LOCH,ROCH,HSDS has connections. I figured this out when I was reading XAJH. In XAJH, Lin Pin Zhi's "grandfather"- the creator of Pi Xie Jian Fa, was originally a DU GENERATION monk. Yes, the same DU generation as HSDS's DU generation. When this story was told, it was 80 years before LHC's time (told by Abbot and Wudang leader). That would mean if the Du still survived, they would be approx 110 or 120. If we were to link HSDS time period and XAJH period together, that would probably be 20 something years after HSDS. First, Song should still be alive (though barely). 2nd, YLQ should still be alive (it's another Beggar Clan leader, and this beggar clan leader apparently wasn't as strong since his name wasn't as big. Dude, if he knew XL14Z, then he could match up with the top fighters at that time). 3rd. Wudang leader was never heard in HSDS. Technically, it should still be Song yuan chiao leading the pai. 4th. It said, Wudang lost Tai Chi Chuan manual and sword many years ago. If it was many years ago, then Z3F should still be alive (assuming correspondece with HSDS). 5th, the Yuan and Gong generation seemed to dissapear into space. If it corresponds with HSDS times, there should still be at least some Yuan generation people left. 6. Hwa mountain was not the leader of Wulin in HSDS -excluding Shaolin and Wudang. If it corresponds, Hwa mountain should still be the leader of the 5 at that time. 7. I don't see any Fong Chin Yang. Enough said. There actually are more examples.

[Ken Cheng]

That would mean if the Du still survived, they would be approx 110 or 120. If we were to link HSDS time period and XAJH period together, that would probably be 20 something years after HSDS. First, Song should still be alive (though barely).

The math doesn't seem to work right here (then again, math has never been my strong suit). Even if one of the Dao generation monks from HSDS was the grandfather of Lam Ping Tze, that doesn't mean that SOD occurred twenty years after HSDS. It could (and probably should) be longer than that...upwards of forty years I'd say.

2nd, YLQ should still be alive (it's another Beggar Clan leader, and this beggar clan leader apparently wasn't as strong since his name wasn't as big.

Yeh Lut Chai? What does Yeh Lut Chai have to do with any of this? Yeh Lut Chai probably died a century before HSDS proper started. At the time that HSDS ended, the Beggar's Union hadn't selected a new Chief to replace the slain Shih For Lung, who himself likely became Chief a few generations after Yeh Lut Chai did. Yeh Lut Chai had absolutely nothing to do with the events of SOD, as he had likely been dead for 150-200 years before the time of SOD.

Technically, it should still be Song yuan chiao leading the pai.

Not Sung Yeun Kiu. Cheung 3 Fung relieved Sung Yeun Kiu as lead disciple due to the latter's failure to bring up Sung Ching Sheu correctly. Yu Lin Chou (Mo Dong Hero # 2) ostensibly became the next leader of the Mo Dong Sect after Cheung 3 Fung finally passed into the Tao.

4th. It said, Wudang lost Tai Chi Chuan manual and sword many years ago. If it was many years ago, then Z3F should still be alive (assuming correspondece with HSDS).

Not necessarily. "Many years ago" from the perspective of SOD can still be a number of years after Cheung 3 Fung's death.

[Candide]

Qing is the most active but Song is the background for the most popular JY novels.

Going a little off topic here but it amazes me how many Chinese novels, movies and adaptations are based on the Qing dynasty period. Why?

[Wu Xing]

Going a little off topic here but it amazes me how many Chinese novels, movies and adaptations are based on the Qing dynasty period. Why?

From what I heard, it is because there were a number of activities/stories about the attempt of Han Chinese to overthrow Qing dynasty.

[Ken Cheng]

Going a little off topic here but it amazes me how many Chinese novels, movies and adaptations are based on the Qing dynasty period. Why?

That's a good question. I guess the foreign occupation angle was too good to resist (lots of story potential there). I've never enjoyed Qing Dynasty-era wuxia stories (in any form - print, film, or television) because the martial arts are (for reasons obvious to wuxia fans) weaker and because I've always thought that Qing Dynasty Chinese fashions (the clothes and the pigtail queues) were fugly.

[Black Night Sea]

Well, in the JY universe, I also figured out that you couldn't tie all the books together. For example, LOCH, ROCH, HSDS defitnitely had ties with DSGS. XAJH also had ties with DSGS because it explained Xi Xin Da Fa. However, this doesn't mean that XAJH and LOCH,ROCH,HSDS has connections. I figured this out when I was reading XAJH. In XAJH, Lin Pin Zhi's "grandfather"- the creator of Pi Xie Jian Fa, was originally a DU GENERATION monk. Yes, the same DU generation as HSDS's DU generation. When this story was told, it was 80 years before LHC's time (told by Abbot and Wudang leader). That would mean if the Du still survived, they would be approx 110 or 120. If we were to link HSDS time period and XAJH period together, that would probably be 20 something years after HSDS. First, Song should still be alive (though barely). 2nd, YLQ should still be alive (it's another Beggar Clan leader, and this beggar clan leader apparently wasn't as strong since his name wasn't as big. Dude, if he knew XL14Z, then he could match up with the top fighters at that time). 3rd. Wudang leader was never heard in HSDS. Technically, it should still be Song yuan chiao leading the pai. 4th. It said, Wudang lost Tai Chi Chuan manual and sword many years ago. If it was many years ago, then Z3F should still be alive (assuming correspondece with HSDS). 5th, the Yuan and Gong generation seemed to dissapear into space. If it corresponds with HSDS times, there should still be at least some Yuan generation people left. 6. Hwa mountain was not the leader of Wulin in HSDS -excluding Shaolin and Wudang. If it corresponds, Hwa mountain should still be the leader of the 5 at that time. 7. I don't see any Fong Chin Yang. Enough said. There actually are more examples.

The Shaolin monastery concerned that Duyuan (LPZ’s grandfather) belonged to was situated in the city of Putian within the Fujian province, not the original one in Shaoshi Peak/Henan. Rank names between branches should be different from each other I suppose.

Besides, such classification of names doesn’t seem like they’re time-dependent.

E.g. the monks in DGSD are named Xuan, Hui, Xu and Kong. Therefore with the existence of Kongwen, Kongzhi and Kongxing etc in HSDS (several 100 yrs after DGSD’s time period), it won’t be a strange thing if the names were to be recycled over time.

[Candide]

<snip: Shaolin> it won’t be a strange thing if the names were to be recycled over time.

Shaolin monks' Buddhist names are based on a Buddhist poem (at least I think it was a poem). The first word in their Buddhist names (the rank) comes from the first word in a line of the poem (in that order). Certain characters are repeated and Kong is one of them. I have an article on this one somewhere. I'll have a look when I get home. That's real life Shaolin though. JY didn't follow that order strictly. He picked the rank name to suit the meaning he wants it to convey through the novel.

I've never enjoyed Qing Dynasty-era wuxia stories (in any form - print, film, or television) because the martial arts are (for reasons obvious to wuxia fans) weaker and because I've always thought that Qing Dynasty Chinese fashions (the clothes and the pigtail queues) were fugly.

Yeah I've always thought that their fashion sucked donkey's balls.

[mich]

Going a little off topic here but it amazes me how many Chinese novels, movies and adaptations are based on the Qing dynasty period. Why?

My guess is the Qing Dynasty is recent history compared to other Dynasties. Abundance of researched materials and generally the wuxia fighting is not as spectacular, so budget wise it's more economical.

[Black Night Sea]

Shaolin monks' Buddhist names are based on a Buddhist poem (at least I think it was a poem). The first word in their Buddhist names (the rank) comes from the first word in a line of the poem (in that order). Certain characters are repeated and Kong is one of them. I have an article on this one somewhere. I'll have a look when I get home. That's real life Shaolin though. JY didn't follow that order strictly. He picked the rank name to suit the meaning he wants it to convey through the novel.

Well, it is wuxia we're talking about.

[SkineePanda]

In terms of the # of stories, it would be the Qing.

But on the sheer scale of things, the Song dynasty.

Come on, during the Qing, the martial artists were a nuisance at best. Just forming societies, plotting but bascially amounting to nothing. In the Song, we have the Greats, Beggar Clan, Quanzhen, etc. all actively participating in war.

[FruityPunch]

Well, in the JY universe, I also figured out that you couldn't tie all the books together.

I believe Jin Yong meant for it to be that way. Only Gu Long, his books can be read separately, even though those that are supposedly meant to be sequels, or to be read in sequence.

For example, LOCH, ROCH, HSDS defitnitely had ties with DSGS. XAJH also had ties with DSGS because it explained Xi Xin Da Fa. However, this doesn't mean that XAJH and LOCH,ROCH,HSDS has connections. I figured this out when I was reading XAJH. In XAJH, Lin Pin Zhi's "grandfather"- the creator of Pi Xie Jian Fa, was originally a DU GENERATION monk. Yes, the same DU generation as HSDS's DU generation. When this story was told, it was 80 years before LHC's time (told by Abbot and Wudang leader). That would mean if the Du still survived, they would be approx 110 or 120. If we were to link HSDS time period and XAJH period together, that would probably be 20 something years after HSDS. First, Song should still be alive (though barely). 2nd, YLQ should still be alive (it's another Beggar Clan leader, and this beggar clan leader apparently wasn't as strong since his name wasn't as big. Dude, if he knew XL14Z, then he could match up with the top fighters at that time). 3rd. Wudang leader was never heard in HSDS. Technically, it should still be Song yuan chiao leading the pai. 4th. It said, Wudang lost Tai Chi Chuan manual and sword many years ago. If it was many years ago, then Z3F should still be alive (assuming correspondece with HSDS). 5th, the Yuan and Gong generation seemed to dissapear into space. If it corresponds with HSDS times, there should still be at least some Yuan generation people left. 6. Hwa mountain was not the leader of Wulin in HSDS -excluding Shaolin and Wudang. If it corresponds, Hwa mountain should still be the leader of the 5 at that time. 7. I don't see any Fong Chin Yang. Enough said. There actually are more examples.

Credits to you, that was some intricate analysis. However, names, ranks and titles means nothing in Zen Buddhism. It's entirely possible that 100 yrs from a certain era, a previously higher-ranked Buddhist monk's name be used again. (Can you construct your writings in paragraphs next time? Thanks. )

2nd, YLQ should still be alive (it's another Beggar Clan leader, and this beggar clan leader apparently wasn't as strong since his name wasn't as big. Dude, if he knew XL14Z, then he could match up with the top fighters at that time).

His "name" was quite big, just that he was mysterious and had not been active around Wulin for about 20 years. Why was that so?

He became physically incapacitated while trying to learn HL18P because he had inferior internal strength.

High kungfu doesn't always equate to high reputation, at least not all the time. Shi Huolong had a high reputation because he was the leader of Beggar's Gang, not because he had godly abilities.

The saying in HSDS goes: "Beggars' Gang, Ming Cult, Shaolin Sect.", meaning those three were top dogs in their respective categorisation of martial arts establishment.

Anyway, knowing how to execute a top martial arts doesn't always mean a person is a good fighter. Much of it depends on innate abilities, and talents, inborn or accumulated, and how an exponent reacts in actual battle. HL18P depends very much on raw inner energy. Shi doesn't appear to have very great inner strength.

[Siven]

I think overall across the whole spectrum of wuxia novels the favorite time period for the authors to use is undoubtedly the Song period, followed perhaps by Ming and Qing period. The Tang period sees some use too but anything earlier is rare. Some have an aversion to setting a story in the Qing period since after all it's the last time the Han Chinese were under foreign rule.