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Thread: 4 Greats and Zhong Shen Tong

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    Default 4 Greats and Zhong Shen Tong

    I remember in LOCH that Huang Yaoshi was surprised when Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng were fighting each other on Peach Blossom Island. He had thought he'd surpassed them but found that they were likely on par with him. Did any of the 4 Greats (Dong Xie, Xi Du, Nan Di, Bei Gai) ever think to themselves in either LOCH or ROCH that they had surpassed Zhong Shen Tong Wong Chongyang?

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    In LOCH, when Huang Yaoshi made that comment about Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng, he thought with Wang Chong Yang out of the way, he was for certain he is number one.

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    i think OYF had that idea before... in that he had attained the martial arts level of WCY during LOCH

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen
    I remember in LOCH that Huang Yaoshi was surprised when Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng were fighting each other on Peach Blossom Island. He had thought he'd surpassed them but found that they were likely on par with him. Did any of the 4 Greats (Dong Xie, Xi Du, Nan Di, Bei Gai) ever think to themselves in either LOCH or ROCH that they had surpassed Zhong Shen Tong Wong Chongyang?
    None of the Greats had ever thought that they had surpassed Wang Chongyang. I've checked many times.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    What about Qiu Qianren and Zhou Botong then?

    I think QQR thinks quite highly of himself...due to his Iron Palms.. i think he probably never met WCY before...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Extremer88
    What about Qiu Qianren and Zhou Botong then?

    I think QQR thinks quite highly of himself...due to his Iron Palms.. i think he probably never met WCY before...
    The reason why Qiu Qianren did not go to the first tournament at Huashan was because he feared Wang Chongyang. This was said in LOCH.
    And Zhou Botong still (indirectly) felt that he was still inferior to his martial arts brother even at the end of ROCH.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    If WCY hadn't died, he would have continually improved his skills so the other 4 would not have caught him without learning the 9 Yin kung fu. I think the other 4 knew that, and it's apparent that all 4 respected WCY so I don't think they would feel that they had passed WCY. It's possible that the 4 Elites had actually passed WCY's level when he died.

    Zhou Bo Tong was probably the best fighter at the end of LOCH, except he "forgot" his 9 Yin kung fu.
    Last edited by flyingfox2002; 01-26-06 at 04:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002
    Zhou Bo Tong was probably the best fighter at the end of LOCH, except he "forgot" his 9 Yin kung fu.
    Despite his attempts to "forget" the 9 Yum Jen Ging martial arts, however, I don't think Chow Bak Tung ever fully succeeded in abstaining from using it. Almost unwittingly, the 9 Yum Jen Ging martial arts kept on creeping into his martial arts.

    I agree that he was most likely the best fighter at the end of LOCH. Had he been present at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, I'm not sure even the crazed West Poison Au Yeung Fung would have been his match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Despite his attempts to "forget" the 9 Yum Jen Ging martial arts, however, I don't think Chow Bak Tung ever fully succeeded in abstaining from using it. Almost unwittingly, the 9 Yum Jen Ging martial arts kept on creeping into his martial arts.

    I agree that he was most likely the best fighter at the end of LOCH. Had he been present at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, I'm not sure even the crazed West Poison Au Yeung Fung would have been his match.
    Actually, I can't remember him ever using 9Yin-related kung fu after he declared that he had "forgotten" it. I can't swear on the preceding statement as I haven't read ROCH in a bunch of years, but I am fairly certain.

    Too bad Yinggu chased him away because he was at Huashan at the beginning.
    Last edited by flyingfox2002; 01-26-06 at 04:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002
    Too bad Yinggu chased him away because he was at Huashan at the beginning.
    Yeah, and he wasn't there by accident. He was fully prepared to compete for the title of Numero Uno.

    But, as you noted, he reacted to Ying Goo like an elephant does to a mouse.

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    Senior Member Loke-Gao-Zhu's Avatar
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    Chow Bak Tung (zhong wan toan) is the strongest !!!

    he has 9 yin and hong ming quan

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002
    Actually, I can't remember him ever using 9Yin-related kung fu after he declared that he had "forgotten" it. I can't swear on the preceding statement as I haven't read ROCH in a bunch of years, but I am fairly certain.
    In ROCH, in a friendly match against YG, he pulled out a fist technique from 9Yin only to have YG recognize it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loke-Gao-Zhu
    Chow Bak Tung (zhong wan toan) is the strongest !!!

    he has 9 yin and hong ming quan
    So does Gwok Jing, and Gwok Jing also has Hong Lung 18 Palms and Peach Blossom Island Techniques (as of ROCH) on top of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Despite his attempts to "forget" the 9 Yum Jen Ging martial arts, however, I don't think Chow Bak Tung ever fully succeeded in abstaining from using it. Almost unwittingly, the 9 Yum Jen Ging martial arts kept on creeping into his martial arts.

    I agree that he was most likely the best fighter at the end of LOCH. Had he been present at the Second Mt. Hua Sword Tournament, I'm not sure even the crazed West Poison Au Yeung Fung would have been his match.
    Well, when West Poison went crazy, he absolutely owned North Beggar and East Heretic. Lol, he bit East Heretic and gave H7G a palm. I'm not so sure ZBT could beat him. But it's possible.

    As for the WCY topic. My idea is this: WCY was a notch above the other 4 Greats, except the other 4 were a bit stubborn (probably especiaclly East Heretic). After the 4 tried everything, they just had to admit WCY was better. However, by the time ROCH came around (beggining or end), I think all 4 senior Greats have surpassed him. Think about it, it would be pretty sad if you had 40 years of training and you still couldn't surpass someone's level that can't improve (because he's dead!). For ROCH, I'm extremely positive that the senior Greats have surpassed WCY. As for LOCH, I can't say yet. For LOCH, I would say that the 4 were probably par with WCY or even more likely have surpassed him (it's still 20 years of extra training, which is a lot.).
    The only reason that none of the Greats in LOCH said that they have surpassed WCY is because if WCY was alive, due to WCY's improvement, the 4 of them would still lose. That's why East Heretic said that once WCY died, he thought that he was #1. It's not because his level didn't surpass WCY at the time, it's because if WCY was alive, WCY would also have improvement and once again beat the 4 Greats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    Well, when West Poison went crazy, he absolutely owned North Beggar and East Heretic. Lol, he bit East Heretic and gave H7G a palm. I'm not so sure ZBT could beat him. But it's possible.
    I wouldn't say own, since Ouyang Feng didn't managed to cause any real damage neither of them. He was only able to gain the upper hand and push them back. After he push them back, Huang Yaoshi and Hong Qigong can always continued to come back, but the results might still be same. IMO, if Ouyang Feng was abit more sane, he would've truly owned with that fighting style of his.


    For WCY being superior to the 4 Greats.

    IIRC, there is scene on Peach Blossom Island when Huang Yaoshi suggested that Zhou Botong's martial arts is on the same level as his. But Ouyang Feng disagreed that Zhou Botong after learning 9 Yin is clearly stronger than all of them. Although he only tried to provoked Huang Yaoshi, he added even if Wang Chong Yang come back from the dead, he still wouldn't be a match for Zhou Botong anymore. Ouyang Feng might not believe that Wang Chong Yang is weaker than Zhou Botong, but from this sentence he clearly admitted that the 4 Greats were still inferior to Wang Chong Yang.

    And Ouyang Feng didn't say if Wang Chong Yang was still alive or continued living, but somehow resurrected.
    Last edited by TaiHan; 01-29-06 at 02:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    Well, when West Poison went crazy, he absolutely owned North Beggar and East Heretic.
    I wouldn't say that. Hung 7 Gung and Wong Yerk See held their own and got their shots in. Au Yeung Fung won, but both fights were close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    As for the WCY topic. My idea is this: WCY was a notch above the other 4 Greats, except the other 4 were a bit stubborn (probably especiaclly East Heretic). After the 4 tried everything, they just had to admit WCY was better. However, by the time ROCH came around (beggining or end), I think all 4 senior Greats have surpassed him. Think about it, it would be pretty sad if you had 40 years of training and you still couldn't surpass someone's level that can't improve (because he's dead!). For ROCH, I'm extremely positive that the senior Greats have surpassed WCY. As for LOCH, I can't say yet. For LOCH, I would say that the 4 were probably par with WCY or even more likely have surpassed him (it's still 20 years of extra training, which is a lot.).
    The only reason that none of the Greats in LOCH said that they have surpassed WCY is because if WCY was alive, due to WCY's improvement, the 4 of them would still lose. That's why East Heretic said that once WCY died, he thought that he was #1. It's not because his level didn't surpass WCY at the time, it's because if WCY was alive, WCY would also have improvement and once again beat the 4 Greats.
    I disagree with you on this one. But before I start: I know that I've posted these comments a lot of times. And I think everyone will find me and this post very tedious but nevertheless I cannot help myself from repeating it again. So, my apologies for repeating this tedious post (once again).

    Before I start with why I disagree we have to more or less pinpoint the age of Wang Chongyang in Jin Yong's novels.
    This is an old post of mine:
    Central Divinity Wang Chongyang should be around 80 years old when he died, according to the real legend of Wang Chongyang he died when he was 58 years old age but let us keep fact and fiction separated.
    *Fiction:
    Wang Chongyang started to the literary fields when he was young, he only started to learn martial arts at the age of 15.
    It takes about 10 years to become fully master your abilities.
    25 years roaming the realm, let us say he roamed the world for about 5 years (meet Lin Chaoying in the progress).
    Meeting friends, and picking up some ideas of the world, let us say again he started to feel bad about the current situation in the world (Jurchens have taken over the northern provinces of the Song empire). He starts to assemble an army to retake the lost lands at the age of 30. The assembly of an army cannot be done by overnight, another extra 5 years when his army is operational in my opnion.
    At the age of 35 he starts his war to retake the lost lands. However after fighting for some years he suffered several defeats and in the end he gave up his dream and retreated back.
    Let us say again that this war only lasted another year or 4.

    In my opinion with the infrastructure of those days, organizing an army. Leading an army takes a lot of time and energy, so the five years I have given is acutally really optimistic thinking. And another 3, 4 years of war is also very very optismistic.
    He was disillusioned and retreated to his ancient tomb and spend some years perfecting his martial arts.
    I would say a 3, 4 years in total. Now at the end of those 3, 4 years Lin Chaoying forced him out his tomb again.
    He is now about 43 years old, together they roam Wulin for a year or two.
    Now he is 45, at this time Lin Chaoying and Wang Chongyang started to compete with each other for some time. Because Wang Chongyang sort of ignored the love signs of Lin Chaoying. At the end they duelled several times, Lin Chaoying was weaker than him but because Wang didn't really want to hurt her feelings he only used 50% of his abilities coming to a draw.
    In the end Lin tricked him into losing the tomb, he becomes a Taoist priest at Mount Zhongnan. In the beginning he was very uncomfortable being a Taoist but after years of contemplating on Taoist codices he finally became enlightened.
    Enlightment doesn't come overday, and the novel said after years of contemplation I would take an extra 7 years.
    53 now, he probably started to organize, perfect his style turning it into Quanzhen. That would take another three years, he was now 55 and has founded the Quanzhen School.
    The Quanzhen School as we know was the leading martial arts school in the era of LOCH and ROCH. This was mainly because of Central Divinity Wang Chongyang, it takes about ten years for a school to become famous and respected. He is now 65, also he had to accept disciples. Judging by the martial arts level of the Seven Masters he had to at least put another ten years in training them. He is now 75 years old. Received news on the death of Lin Chaoying, he retired to a small chamber in the back of his mountain and stayed for three years hoping to counter Yunu Xinjing. However he could think of a few skills, but he couldn't creat a new set of style alltogether and gave up after three years.
    78 now, Chaos over Jiuyin, Tournament at Mount Hua. 2 years from the tournament he dies.
    About 80.
    This is all information from LOCH and ROCH, which I have combined and if you have doubts about it. Be my guest! Again the infrastucture of 1000 years ago weren't that advanced and I've really giving the most optimistic calculations.


    If we look at the accomplishments of Wang Chongyang in the novels, it is impossible for him to be able to do all of this if he died around 60 years old. Look at the time Zhang Sanfeng needed before he created the Wudang School.
    This is the tedious old post of mine:

    Laviathan posted this about 2 years ago:
    Proof can be found in ROCH chapter 26, when the Five Quanzhen Masters exit the Yuxu Cave. After seeing Golden Wheel Monk and the other three warriors attacking Dragon Girl, Qiu Chuji and the others thought:"If our late Master is still alive he would surely be superior to them, our martial uncle Zhou is probably also one level higher than these four men in the field of martial arts. Yet, when facing the combined forces of these four fighters, chances are high that he will suffer defeat."

    I don't know if this means that only Zhou would be defeated by the combined force of the four, or that both Wang Chongyang and Zhou Botong when facing the four fighters alone will suffer defeat.
    If the first explanation is true, than Wang Chongyang would at the least tie with the four warriors of Mongolia, and at best Wang could defeat them all. This brings Wang Chongyang at the level of Guo Jing in ROCH or even higher (Guo Jing was only able to tie with them, he could not overcome them totally).
    If we choose the other alternative than Wang Chongyang is somewhat weaker than Guo Jing (at this point of the story). In other words, Guo Jing has surpassed Central Divinity. But no matter what: Wang Chongyang was still better than Zhou Botong and the other Greats at this point of the story! Zhou Botong is more or less equal to Huang Yaoshi, Yideng and the others. The Five Masters believe that Zhou is not as good as their late master, this automatically means that the other Greats have not surpassed Wang Chongyang (yet?).

    One could argue that the Five Masters haven't saw Zhou Botong for quite a few years, but it is a fact that when Zhou Botong first encountered Golden Wheel Monk and the other warriors, he did NOT really try to fight them. Which is very peculiar, for Old Zhou loves a good fight. But Zhou Botong is no dummy, after having made fun of them he ran away instead of fighting. This is a sign that he himself knew that he could not handle them on his own.
    After the 16 years separation, the remaining Greats might have surpassed Wang Chongyang... I dunno.
    Another reason why I think that Wang Chongyang was indeed much more advanced in the field of martial arts is: he read the Book of Nine Yin, pondered about it for more than 10 days and was able to absorb the contents without ever training it. The other Greats are not able to do this. Zhou Botong too, was able to do so, but this was because he, like Wang Chongyang are Taoist martial artists AND because had the first part of the book with him for more than ten years. He read it for many years and could ponder about it for years, while his brother Wang Chongyang only needed 10 days.
    What Yideng said was more about the great effects of the Flower Jade Pills but if you like to use it as an indication for the Greats' situation... fine. But I don't understand why a simple remark of Yideng concerning some pills makes such sense to you, while the analysis of the Quanzhen masters about their teacher''s martial arts level is treated as "biased", "they just don't know" or "something someone said 50 or 60 years later". How come Yideng''s words form the undeniable truth while the thoughts of the Quanzhen Masters are gibberish?
    Maybe Duan Zhixing (Yideng) at the time was really tired, but how does he know Wang Chongyang was exhausted after the tournament? Maybe Yideng just assumed Wang was exhausted or maybe he just didn't paid much attention to it. Just because Yideng says it does not make it true even though he believes it's true.

    Besides, Wang Chongyang was much older than the other four greats, so it is not very strange he got tired. Just because he was tired doesn't mean a thing. In HSDS Zhang Sanfeng was clearly invincible yet due to his old age, Zhang Wuji was reluctant to let him engage in combat.

    Furthermore, I did not say Guo Jing was equal or more powerful than Wang Chongyang.
    I said:If the first explanation is true, than Wang Chongyang would at the least tie with the four warriors of Mongolia, and at best Wang could defeat them all. This brings Wang Chongyang at the level of Guo Jing in ROCH or even higher (Guo Jing was only able to tie with them, he could not overcome them totally).
    If we choose the other alternative than Wang Chongyang is somewhat weaker than Guo Jing (at this point of the story). In other words, Guo Jing has surpassed Central Divinity.
    I only said it was POSSIBLE that Guo Jing was equal or more powerful than Wang Chongyang..
    And yes, I do believe that within a few years, Guo Jing has made tremendous progress and has surpassed the Four Greats at the Mongolian Camp.
    But the fact is: we don't know how the Huashan Contest was fought. We don't know how good Wang Chongyang was.
    The only indication is the part in ROCH Chapter 26, thoughts of Qiu Chuji and the others. To use Ren Wo Xing's words: That's good enough for me.

    I posted this a few months ago too:
    I tend to disagree, it is not certain whether Wang Chongyang was "just slightly" better than the others. There are also not really any indications on whether he died because of the tournament (although I feel that being his old age + the tournament took a heavy toll on his body did have a roll in it). But those are just conclusions drawn by the readers.
    Furthermore a lot of people think that the other "Greats" were not fully developed in the field of martial arts that's why Wang Chongyang could defeat them.
    But that is not really logical, is it? Because if the other "Greats" hadn't reached a high profiency in martial arts they wouldn't be invited in the first place. And they were representatives of the top-notch of that era in Wulin, so it is safe to say that they were very good.

    The Five Masters of Quanzhen are very capable of making a very objective comparison. First of all they are 5 martial arts experts and had gathered a lot of profound insight in martial arts and theories of martial arts.
    Which makes them very capable of making a sound assessment of the situation.
    (They cannot be compared to the young Zhang Cuisain, Zhang had no idea what the level of martial arts his teacher Zhang Sanfeng had. Zhang Cuisan was young.)
    Secondly they were the disciples of Wang Chongyang, they knew what level of martial arts their teacher had. If these were thought of for instance a third generation pupil like Li Zhichang I wouldn't believe it. But the thoughts of the 5 Masters carry a lot of weight, in my humble opinion.
    The five of them blasted the doors open of Yuxu cave and saw the battle between Xiao Longnu and the 4 Mongolian warriors. When they saw that fight they were very very disappointed and even depressed. It is unlikely that they would boast their reputation of Quanzhen at that time even in their thoughts. And the Five Masters aren't ego-trippers.
    We have to consider it was not Central Divinity v.s. Eastern Wicked, West Venom, Southern Emperor and Nothern Beggar. The other four duelled with each other too.
    Those seven days were a mixture of discussion on martial arts theories, and duelling with each other. It lasted that long because it was a tournament with a certain established rules. For example after a duel between Central Divinity and Northern Beggar where Wang Chongyang won. He couldn't be challenged anymore by West Venom. Even if West Venom wanted to do that the others wouldn't allow it. (With Ouyang Feng's fame he wouldn't even take advantage of such a situation). Remember that Huang Yaoshi refused to fight Hong Qigong after Hong had a battle with Ouyang Feng.
    It lasted that long because each and everyone was given a fair chance to win.
    It wasn't like the four of them would take turns challenging only Wang Chongyang it was contest between 5 superior martial arts masters. But for all we know the tournament could have been like the TVB 1994 LOCH adaption, who knows?
    In the end he won we don't know by how much.
    It was stated in the novel somewhere that Wang Chongyang's level of martial arts was a level higher than the other Greats. But that isn't conclusive.
    Because in ROCH it was written that the Golden Wheel Monk's martial arts was also a level higher than Li Mochou.
    A level higher is a very ambiguous term (in Jin Yong novels).
    I for one find the the statements of the Five Masters much more reliable than an ambiguously used term.
    But that's me.........
    The five masters did not compare their late teacher and Zhou Botong to Xiao Longnu. Furthermore they could not even see what stances she used. She was so incredibly fast, they could only see flashes of light. (They were not the only ones, even the Imperial Priest etc. were unable to see what stances she used). Furthermore they did not witness the feat Guo Jing accomplished at the Mongolian camps. They were thinking about martial arts in general, about who is capable of holding ground against the attacks of these four. Although it was not mentioned but they must have been impressed that a young girl could keep those martial artists at bay. Because Xiao Longnu was fighting a losing battle at that time.

    Qiu Chuji and others now turned around and were observing the battle between Xiao Longnu and the Imperial Priest etc. After observing for a few moments, they looked at each other and looked very sad and depressed. They thought: "In vain.....everything was in vain. We never thought that the martial arts of the Ancient Tomb School would be this magnificent. We can never defeat her in this lifetime."
    The martial arts previously displayed by Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu were the blueprints for their ponderings and contemplation. But the incredible, fantastic swordsplay of Xiao Longnu was too awesome. They could not even see what those stances are, how could they think of a way to counter it?
    The Imperial Priest and the other Mongolian warriors had higher martial arts than the Five Masters of Quanzhen. It was practically impossible for the Quanzhen School to even produce someone like them now.
    Qiu Chuji and others thought:"If our late Master is still alive he would surely be superior to them, our martial uncle Zhou is probably also one level higher than these four men in the field of martial arts. Yet, when facing the combined forces of these four fighters, chances are high that he will suffer defeat."
    The Five Masters were ashamed and depressed, they felt that Quanzhen was degrading with each generation. They could not carry on the legacy of their patriarch anymore. When faced with a great enemy it seems that Quanzhen School has no leg to stand on anymore.
    However their new technique [The Seven Star Assembly] has overcome the Lamaist Sect of Mongolia. Which will benefit the protection of the country to outer invasions. Wulin quarrels are trivial, but protecting one's nation is vital. Losing to the Ancient Tomb School is of no concern, but losing to the Mongolians is not an option.
    I translated this bit from the novel (edition 3).
    We all agree that Li Mochou is nowhere near Imperial Priest Jinlun, but Jin Yong used the term [he was one level above her.]
    Therefore the term is ambiguous [one level above someone], it could mean the discrepancy between Wang Chongyang and the other Greats was as big as the gap between Imperial Priest Jinlun and Li Mochou.
    Wang Chongyang did defeat the four Greats, but one can remove the [just] part. We do not know how he won. Was it really a just call? Or did he simply defeated them plainly? We do not know, it is unfair to state that Wang Chongyang was just a bit better than the remaining 4 Greats.
    The Imperial Priest did do his best against Xiao Longnu, he was impressed and overawed but that didn't stop him from trying his best to defeat her.
    He did not hold back, he even threw in his Five Wheels Enciclement again, which failed again.
    His Dragon Elephant Wisdom Skill should be present even 16 years ago. Albeit not level 10 but still it should be a level 9. I agree that Imperial Priest Jinlun should be half a level below the Greats.
    The four of them (including Ni Moxing, Yin Kexi and Xiaoxiang Zi) were closing in on Xiao Longnu. They did not attack furiously, because they knew if they attacked they could not match the speed of Xiao Longnu. So they defended with everything they had and slowly stepped forward to close her in.
    They were fighting optimally against Xiao Longnu.
    What I am saying is that 16 years ago, even the remaining Greats could not defeat these four experts. And at that time the remaining Greats were all nearly 80 years old.
    Granted, if the evaluation of the 5 Masters is true.
    Plus Wang Chongyang raised his martial arts level again with the Jiuyin manual. He absorbed the essence of Jiuyin just by reading it for more than 10 days, he became proficient in it----> edtion 3.
    It is very possible that the 4 Greats at the end of ROCH caught up with Wang Chongyang, because at that time all of them were almost 100 years old. And had another extra 16 years to cultivate their internal power.
    Personally, if we assume that the assumption made by the Five Masters is correct: Wang Chongyang can fend off the combined attack of those 4 Mongolian experts and defeat the four of them. He would probably die afterwards from exhaustion.

    In conclusion I PERSONALLY believe the words of the Five Masters to be rather accurate. And as Laviathan had said before:"That is good enough for me."

    In addition to this: Wang Chongyang died probably when he was 80+ years old. Wang's talent in martial arts was said to be superior to the other Greats including Qiu Qianren and Zhou Botong. Like some of the Greats Wang Chongyang had access to Jiuyin. Like said before, Wang Chongyang successfully absorbed the essence of Jiuyin into himself. I think it is very unlikely that the other Greats (including Zhou Botong and Qiu Qianren) have caught up with Wang Chongyang's level (when Central Divinity was 80 years old) when they are just 70+ (pre 16 years ROCH).
    I think Wang Chongyang (before his death 80+ years old) should have at least the same level of the other Greats (90+ years old) at the end of ROCH.
    Last edited by Athena; 01-29-06 at 06:01 AM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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