case study: martial arts description comparison of Zhou Zhiruo and Dragon Girl

[PJ]

One issue which has varied opinions is Little Dragon Girl's martial arts ranking compared to the Greats. Another equally debated standing is that of Zhou Zhiruo compared to the Seven Heroes of Wudang. After briefly consulting the descriptions of their triumph over stronger opponents, I am seeing some similarities in the way they performed, and yet I feel they are not judged fairly by some.

Most of the expert readers believe that Zhou Zhiruo's real martial arts is far below that of Yin Liting and Yu Lianzhou, even though Zhou somehow "overcame" them due to her 9 Yin crash course. The passage that backs this opinion is:

周芷若的武功纯以奇幻见长，制服武当二侠实是她成就的峰巅，说到内功修为，比之俞莲舟、殷梨亭 尚远为不如

roughly - "Zhou Zhiruo's martial arts rely purely on deception to gain an edge. Her prevalence over the 2 Wudang heroes is surely her most impressive accomplishment. In the field of internal power cultivation, she would be vastly inferoir to Yu Lianzhou and Yin Liting."

On the contrary with Dragon Girl, some experts believe that she ranks somewhere between a Great (Golden Wheel Monk) and the next level (Xiao Xiangzi, Yin Kexi, Ni Moxing). Judging by her performance in the battle with the Mongolian warriors, in which she could have killed the 3 warriors, and did injure Golden Wheel Monk with 2 swords on each hand, I must say that I concur with this popular opinion about her level. Unfortunately, there is a statement by Jin Yong which contradicts this thought:

其实小龙女一人而使两般剑法，出招虽快，威力终究不如与杨过联手，别说真实武功仍与法王相差甚远，即令潇湘 子等人也是强胜于她。只是她一下来出招星驰电闪，各人从所未见，以致心下先行怯了。

roughly - "Although Dragon Girl, by performing 2 schools of swordplay, still has an advantage with speed, her overall power would be less than collaborating with Yang Guo. Her real martial arts, let alone unspeakably far behind Golden Wheel Monk, are vastly inferior even compared to Xiao Xiangzi et al. It's just that her stances are executed lightning fast, which her opponents have not previously witnessed, so their mind were already defeated to begin with."

Now, in both cases, our gal has overcome tougher opponents with in fact less power, and it is stated that their martial arts are inferior to their opponent. So what is the reason for supporting Dragon Girl's superiority over Xiao Xiangzi et al, while dismissing Zhou Zhiruo as inferior to Yu Lianzhou? Keep in mind, the descriptions regarding their martial arts are similar. Are we judging them by the same standards?

I personally think that Dragon Girl is just fine; things would make more sense if Jin Yong had not written that line about her martial arts being vastly inferior to Xiao Xiangzi. But since he did write that, we must deal with it.

As always, I invite your comments./

[Linda]

hmmm....

i don't remember that passage, i'll go back and read the book. but when i was reading it i did get the impression that by the battle withthe golden wheel monk and the other three guys along with the taoist, xiaolongnu has become superior to them in terms of martial arts.

if they were one on one she would have definitely won. but since it was four on one, she could only defend.

i'll go get my book and re check this part.

as for zzc, i felt her skils were superior compared to most of the people in the story by the end. wat she lacked was internal skills, i think this was mentioned in the book. not sure...can't check though...someone stole my collection.

i used to own a copy of loch, roch and hsds but while i was away someone stole loch and hsds, if i didn't bring roch with me to read they would have stolen that too. if i ever find out who i'll kill them.

[duguxiaojing]

hmmm...perhaps ZZR has very little substance to her martial arts? Although XLN is below the mongo elites in martial arts, her speed outweighs that fact. In a one on one situation XLN would have WTFPWN XXZ,NMX and YKX. She had YKX begging for mercy in their brief exchange IIRC. She wasnt doin to bad against GWM as well...but i doubt she would have won.

[MisterM]

Basically XLN had truly superior techniques to GWM and friends with practically no real flaws eventhough her internal energy cultivation and fighting experience was far inferior, whereas ZZRs techniques only looked superior but were actually full of flaws and weak points (you yourself translated "Zhou Zhiruo's martial arts rely purely on deception to gain an edge.").

GWM even after having had 16 years time to improve had not been able to find a way to beat the techniques of the combined QuanZhen+Jade Maiden swordsmaship and instead hoped that the raw power of his Dragons Power and Elephants Wisdom skill would be enough to win, whereas when ZZR went up against one of the heroes of Wudang he was able to start figuring out how her techniques work and what their weak points were right during the fight and so given an hour or two to analyse the fight against ZZR Yin Liting and You Lianzhou would be able to figure out how to completely beat her techniques.

[dragongirl]

Why can't the ladies ever get #1 in JY novels? I'm starting to think he's a bit of a stereotypist.
Who is the girl that shows up in HSDS and kicks Zhou Zhiruo's butt to shame? Sorry if you guys have had to answer this question billions of times but it's been a long time since i've seen it and I completely forgot.

I'd probably say Dragon Girl beat Zhou Zhiruo cause Zhou Zhiruo relies on deception. Dragon Girl probably wouldn't be afraid of her.

[LuNaR]

wasnt there this mystery girl that claimed to be YG and XLN's daughter. i thought she was stronger than ZZR, if that is so, then XLN is better than ZZR

[dragongirl]

wasnt there this mystery girl that claimed to be YG and XLN's daughter. i thought she was stronger than ZZR, if that is so, then XLN is better than ZZR

YOU READ MY MIND!! LOL! I wanted to say that but I dind't know if I was right and I didn't want to look stupid if I was so I decided to keep my mouth shut. I'm surprised no one has brought it up until now!

[Ken Cheng]

Why can't the ladies ever get #1 in JY novels? I'm starting to think he's a bit of a stereotypist.

Wuxia novels are mostly written by male authors for a male audience in a male-oriented society. No surprise there.

Jin Yong did have this character (in SWORD OF THE YUEH MAIDEN) named Ah Ching, however, who was described as having abilities on the level of the DGSD Janitor Monk (if not even greater). Frightening.

[FruityPunch]

PJ, not nitpicking or sabotaging, but according to your translation:

"比之俞莲舟、殷梨亭 尚远为不如"

"..vastly inferoir to Yu Lianzhou and Yin Liting."

and

"即令潇湘 子等人也是强胜于她。"

"vastly inferior even compared to Xiao Xiangzi et al."

The first portion was correct to the nearest sense, the key word being "远" or "far", therefore interpreted as "vastly".

However, in the second portion, the key word used was "强胜" in "也是强胜于她", the word "强' referring to "strong" in the literal sense, and the word "胜" meaning "win". When you put the two words together, the closest interpretation to the sentence would be:

"also superior to her."

Using two words of similiar meanings is common throughout Chinese texts, because it makes the sentences "flow". It would sound nicer to use "也是强胜于她", (is also superior to her) than "也是强于她" (is also better than her), or "也是胜于她" (is also superior to her).

Therefore, (I feel that) it was not implied she was "vastly inferior" to Xiao and Co.

Her level skills was much nearer to that of Xiao and Co. However because of her speed, she is regarded as better than Xiao and Company. We all know how devastating fighting speed can be, as illustrated by DongFang BuBai.

Also XLN was using real skills with binding pace, while Zhou Zhiruo was using more "虚招" or "fake moves".

However we can all take it with a pinch of salt. Jin Yong obviously favours the Wudang Brothers. In fact, the main theme of his HSDS novel was about the friendship between men, the love between the Wudang Brothers, the fatherly-son affections between Zhang Wuji and Zhang Cuishan, Zhang Wuji and Xie Xun.

Therefore, (in my humble opinion) it was not surprising, JY wanted his fans to feel that the chivalrous Wudang Brothers were far better than the scheming Zhou Zhiruo, hence the lavish description.

[Athena]

"即令潇湘 子等人也是强胜于她。" This has been removed in edition 3. Jin Yong only commented that if Xiao Longnu's internal strength was even comparable to Xiaoxiang Zi, Ni Moxing and Yin Kexi she could have defeated them very swiftly.

[PJ]

To FruityPunch: Thank you for your analysis. I interpreted 强胜于她 as strongly above her.

"即令潇湘 子等人也是强胜于她。" This has been removed in edition 3. Jin Yong only commented that if Xiao Longnu's internal strength was even comparable to Xiaoxiang Zi, Ni Moxing and Yin Kexi she could have defeated them very swiftly.

Good to know. I do believe JY is doing us a favor by polishing little but noticeable details like this.

Basically XLN had truly superior techniques to GWM and friends with practically no real flaws eventhough her internal energy cultivation and fighting experience was far inferior

The words that Jin Yong used to describe Dragon Girl's inferiority is real martial arts (not internal energy). I therefore interpreted this as: Dragon Girl's overall martial arts is weaker than Xiao Xiangzi et al.

whereas ZZRs techniques only looked superior but were actually full of flaws and weak points

Whereas for Zhou Zhiruo's weakness, Jin Yong used the term internal energy cultivation.

[Ken Cheng]

"即令潇湘 子等人也是强胜于她。" This has been removed in edition 3. Jin Yong only commented that if Xiao Longnu's internal strength was even comparable to Xiaoxiang Zi, Ni Moxing and Yin Kexi she could have defeated them very swiftly.

Where did this sudden boost in inner power come from, however? Inner power had always been the weakest link in Little Dragon Girl's martial arts.

[PJ]

Where did this sudden boost in inner power come from, however? Inner power had always been the weakest link in Little Dragon Girl's martial arts.

Eh? Athena said hypothetically that IF Dragon Girl internal energy were comparable, then...

[Ken Cheng]

Eh? Athena said hypothetically that IF Dragon Girl internal energy were comparable, then...

Ah. OK. One tiny subjunctive makes all the difference in the world.

[Siven]

I don't think you should take throwaway passages too seriously in the overall scheme of things. It's not like wuxia authors used any kind of scientific scale to measure the comparative power of characters, even though many believe Jing Yong to be more systematic in this aspect than most.

Is speed of movement not an integral part of martial arts? What did he mean when he says "in terms of real strength..." that XLN didn't even measure up to some two-bit secondary character? Did he mean that XLN couldn't benchpress as much as that guy or what?

As for Zhou Zhiruo the novel was clear to point out that she took the "fast track" to 9YZJ, so she was lacking in the aspects that would've taken years of practice.

[TaiHan]

Is speed of movement not an integral part of martial arts? What did he mean when he says "in terms of real strength..." that XLN didn't even measure up to some two-bit secondary character? Did he mean that XLN couldn't benchpress as much as that guy or what?

Agree, martial art to me is just what people used to beat other. IMO, there is no right way to achieve. Being lower in internal energy or lacking in the technique department, doesn't mean one's martial art level is low. If they can beat others while having insufficient internal energy or technique, it is still a feat.

Such as ZZR shouldn't be able to beat 2nd and 6th heroes based on logic, but she stilled beat them.





Not to be offensive or anything, but you all sound like masters or disciple of the orthodox sect. Remind me of Yue Buqun. Saying practicing such martial art, you won't get far, or you going the wrong way. IMO, it is just different focus on achieving the same thing, even the martial arts of the orthodox sect have their own flaws.

[Ken Cheng]

Agree, martial art to me is just what people used to beat other. IMO, there is no right way to achieve. Being lower in internal energy or lacking in the technique department, doesn't mean one's martial art level is low. If they can beat others while having insufficient internal energy or technique, it is still a feat.

Such as ZZR shouldn't be able to beat 2nd and 6th heroes based on logic, but she stilled beat them.

I don't know about this. Should we regard 6-year old Gwok Jing's lucky strike against Chan Yeun Fung as evidence of the boy's "superiority" to the veteran martial artist as well?

[TaiHan]

I don't know about this. Should we regard 6-year old Gwok Jing's lucky strike against Chan Yeun Fung as evidence of the boy's "superiority" to the veteran martial artist as well?

Not really, since CXF had Guo Jing's masters going at him also.

But yea, using tricks such as using a hostages, booby trap is not really martial art. So they don't count. For psychological attacks, such as what Yang Guo did at the Hero Gathering, I haven't decided yet, since the mentality is also part being a martial artists. Such as Zhang Wuji, Golden Wheel Monk, who are low in this sector.

While ZZR did actually used martial art to overcome the Wudang Heroes.

The same with Guo Jing when he went against Ouyang Ke, it is stated by Jin Yong (at least in my translation) that Guo Jing's internal energy and technique is beneath Ouyang Ke. But Guo Jing with L/R hand techniques easily took him down.

[Linda]

if the l/h lefthand allowed gj to beat oyf and is still considered being superior shouldn't xln using the same teachnique be considered superior to Xiao Xiangzi? since she could also use this technique to overcome Xiao Xiangzi.

[MisterM]

While ZZR did actually used martial art to overcome the Wudang Heroes.

She did? AFAIK she was hoping she would be able to manage a double fatality against the 6th hero of Wudang, eventhough I think she probably would not have been able to pull it off, then ZWJ tried to stopp the fight and nearly got himself killed by ZZR because he is an idiot (and the only reason ZZR nearly managed to kill him is because ZWJ was a retard not because her martial arts were good).