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Thread: Translation of the title Xiao Ao Jiang Hu

  1. #21
    Senior Member FruityPunch's Avatar
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    How about The Carefree Swordsman? Linghu Chong isn't exactly a hero, but he's skilled in the art of swordsplay.

    Or if you call him The Wandering Swordsman, people may get the wrong idea. Same for Easygoing Swordsman. Or:

    He Who Craves For Freedom?
    The Rebellious Vigilante?
    The Gentleman And The Hypocrite?
    The Sword Of Righteousness?
    The Grey Line In-Between?
    The Amicable Wanderer and His Sword?
    Roaming The World With Laughters And Pride?
    "By nature, men are nearly alike; by practice, they get to be wide apart."

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide
    ...do you think a better translation (this applies to any novel) would necessarily make a better title?
    I suppose it depends on one's interpretation of a good title for such cases. Is it one that is an accurate translation of the literal meaning? Or a close, if not perfect, translation of the figurative meaning, the message or connotation as intended by the author? Or is a good title one that appropriately and faithfully reflects the story?

    To me, a good title is the appellation that comes to mind when one thinks of the story. Whichever is the more common title, that is, the one that comes to most minds when they think of the story, is probably the better (or best, depending on the number of alternatives present) one, imho. Hence, I believe a better translation may not necessarily make a better title. Hope I haven't missed your point.

    I've nothing to add to your other question, though.

    What's in a name? that which we call a rose / By any other name would smell as sweet

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by FruityPunch
    How about The Carefree Swordsman? Linghu Chong isn't exactly a hero, but he's skilled in the art of swordsplay.

    Or if you call him The Wandering Swordsman, people may get the wrong idea. Same for Easygoing Swordsman. Or:

    He Who Craves For Freedom?
    The Rebellious Vigilante?
    The Gentleman And The Hypocrite?
    The Sword Of Righteousness?
    The Grey Line In-Between?
    The Amicable Wanderer and His Sword?
    Roaming The World With Laughters And Pride?
    As kidd suggest (which I don't know whether she like your title or not), the title should sound beautiful (poetic). Although XAJH is the Chinese title of this JY novel, the meaning of this name was hidden in the XAJH story, i.e., XAJH doesn't directly represent the sword fight or the fight for the wulin leader (but laughing at it instead). However, XAJH name does represent a song (it is also a song name) as one of the triggers of this story (especially LHC). In this way, I feel XAJH name is quite similar to the 'Dances with Wolves' (movie title). 'Dances with Wolves' is a name, given by native American, to an American soldier. IMHO, it also represents a (main) theme of the story by using 'Wolves' as symbolic name for native Amerian and 'Dances' as the representation of the interaction of this soldier and native American.

    Therefore, it might be possible to create a beautiful poetic name of XAJH through a symbolic name instead of direct translation (like 'Laugh at Martial World' as I suggest above). However, symbolic should reflect 2 things, i.e., the main theme of the story and the main idea of the story. That is why I don't like 'State of Divinity'. Among all names you suggest, I like your 'The Carefree Swordsman' the most. However, it might not be a beautiful title. For your other names like 'The Grey Line In-Between' represents one of the main theme of XAJH, however, it doesn't capture the whole picture of XAJH meaning (i.e., too partial) while 'The Carefree Swordman' does capture in the opposite way of the direct translation of XAJH.


    How about 'The Cavalier' or 'The Cavalier Knight' or 'The Cavalier Swordman'?


    As adjective, Cavalier means careless - showing an arrogant, lack of respect which is quite similar to the 'Laughing' part of XAJH name.

    Also, as noun, Cavalier means knight/soldier or a chivalrous man, especially one escorting a lady -> which LHC did all the time in XAJH . And this is similar to 'Jiang Hu' part of XAJH name.

    Using 'The Cavalier' as name could be interpreted in 2 ways. For the 'obvious' meaning, it literally means a knight or chivalrous man (especially escorting a lady part ) which there are a bunch of them in XAJH (which in fact XAJH are all about them, i.e., this is the main theme of XAJH story). And the 'hidden' meaning, its adjective part will show an arrogant, carefree, lack of respect to the 'Cavalier' as a noun which represents the main idea of XAJH story.

    Btw, I didn't know anything about the word 'cavalier' before. I just look up into the dictionary from internet (see the link below). I may misunderstand the real meaning of this word though.



    What do you think?




    Note: Definition of 'cavalier' (http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/cavalier.html)

    adjective

    Definitions:

    careless: showing an arrogant or jaunty disregard or lack of respect for something or somebody


    noun (plural cav·a·liers)

    Definitions:

    1. gentleman: a gallant or chivalrous man, especially one escorting a lady ( formal )


    2. mounted soldier: a knight or soldier in former times who fought on horseback ( archaic )


    [Mid-16th century. Via French < Italian cavaliere "knight" < medieval Latin caballarius "horseman" < Latin caballus "horse"]
    Last edited by Wu Xing; 01-27-06 at 04:38 PM.

  4. #24
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    What do you think about the titles I suggest in my post above, kidd?

  5. #25
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    State of Divinity is an excellent translation. In the context of the translation SOD, the word "divinity" does not have to refer to anything with gods, it can mean to be above the norm or above the mundane. "State" simply means the condition of "being."

    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu is an idiom. To closely summarize the meaning of the term in one phrase, the term means to live a carefree life, unbothered by the (implied) strife of one's surroundings. It does not mean to smile or laugh at anyone per se. One possible reason that people translate the term into English using words like "smile" or "laugh" may be because they don't understand the idiom.

    Certainly, you can use SPW as the English title of XAJH if you feel that SPW captures the spirit of the novel better, but just beware that SPW is NOT a TRANSLATION of the term XAJH.
    ----

    EDIT: Note that the title XAJH has a double meaning. It means the definition that I gave above, and it also refers to the music piece composed by Liu Zheng Feng and Qu Yang.

    If you still think SPW is actually a valid translation, do you think those two guys would name their music "Smiling, Proud Wanderer"???

    Frankly, I cannot think of a short 3-5 word English TRANSLATION of XAJH that is better than SOD.
    Last edited by flyingfox2002; 01-27-06 at 09:14 PM.
    This account is retired.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfox2002
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu is an idiom. To closely summarize the meaning of the term in one phrase, the term means to live a carefree life, unbothered by the (implied) strife of one's surroundings. It does not mean to smile or laugh at anyone per se. One possible reason that people translate the term into English using words like "smile" or "laugh" may be because they don't understand the idiom.
    Note that in my post#17, I wrote that

    That is why I used 'Laugh at' in the title I suggest since, from dictionary, 'laugh at sb/sth' means

    1. ... or,

    2. to seem not to care about something that most people would worry about
    which is, in my humble opinion & very limited knowledge, pretty close to Carefree. Don't you think?

    Basically, I feel we are all talking about the same thing but slightly different in the very fine detail. This means it might not be possible to have the best title that satisfies everyone.


    Therefore, in a sense of very fine detail, I don't like the term Divinity while most people may like it.
    Last edited by Wu Xing; 01-27-06 at 10:44 PM.

  7. #27
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    I still think "Laughing in the Wind" captures the spirit and sounds the most like fluent English. Kudos to the translator who thought that up.

  8. #28
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    Also, to me, 'Laughing in the Wind' sounds better than 'Similing Proud Wanderer' and 'State of Divinity'. Maybe, no better name then?
    Last edited by Wu Xing; 01-27-06 at 11:18 PM.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Siven's Avatar
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    Let's be accurate! Laughing Proudly Over River and Lakes!

    Or, Affair of the Nun.

    I think ROCH is just as bad a translation. It has almost nothing to do with either the Chinese characters or their semantic content. It should be The Magic Condor & The Vigilante Couple.

    In the same vein:

    Chronicle of the Condor-Shooting Heroes - not so funny.
    The Buddhist Concept of Eight Divine Races
    White Horse Neighing in Westerly Wind
    The Record of Butchering a Dragon While Leaning Against the Sky
    Last edited by Siven; 01-28-06 at 12:05 AM.
    林家有女玉啄成
    嫣然巧笑艳冠人
    纤纤起舞随风动
    疑似飞燕又重生

  10. #30
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Still, the worstly translated literal title yet may be Linked City.

    A better translation would be A Deadly Secret.

    The best translation of that, I could find, is A Priceless Treasure.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  11. #31
    Senior Member FruityPunch's Avatar
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    Happy Lunar New Year guys, for those of you who bother to celebrate.

    Wu Xing:

    We can have a poetic nice name, but if in the end it doesn't represent the true meaning of "Xiao Ao Jiang Hu", then we're no different from those TVB producers.

    Cavalier, it sounds a bit too "Westernised" to me. I remember playing a version of Age Of Empires, and there was a mounted unit called Cavalier. Same goes for knights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    I still think "Laughing in the Wind" captures the spirit and sounds the most like fluent English. Kudos to the translator who thought that up.
    Linghu Chong is hardly a person who doesn't give a damn. There are too many responsibilities he has to carry, even though he craves for freedom and a life without worries. There are things he couldn't let go. He wasn't that "xiao sa" after all, he was just trying to look cool on the outside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siven
    Let's be accurate! Laughing Proudly Over River and Lakes!

    Or, Affair of the Nun.

    I think ROCH is just as bad a translation. It has almost nothing to do with either the Chinese characters or their semantic content. It should be The Magic Condor & The Vigilante Couple.

    In the same vein:

    Chronicle of the Condor-Shooting Heroes - not so funny.
    The Buddhist Concept of Eight Divine Races
    White Horse Neighing in Westerly Wind
    The Record of Butchering a Dragon While Leaning Against the Sky
    Regarding ROCH:

    If you read the 2nd line of ROCH, Chapter 34, this is it:

    十六年来,他苦候与小龙女重会之约,漫游四方,行侠仗义,因一直和神雕为侣,闯下了个“神雕侠”的名头。
    和神雕为侣 - The '侣' or 'couple' is the same word used in the Chinese title '神雕侠侣', '神雕' referring to Divine Eagle and '侠侣' referring to 'chivalrous duo/couple'. Therefore my conjecture would be that '神雕侠侣' refers to Yang Guo and the Divine Eagle, instead of Yang Guo and XLN. XLN is hardly a heroine. She doesn't go out of her way to do heroic deeds. Her life is centred around Yang Guo, and she only does what he likes and doesn't care about anything else. Of course, she is not cruel or vicious, but neither can she be considered a real heroine, unlike Huang Rong.

    I guess it was TVB dudes who came out with the title 'The Duke Of Mount Deer'. That's awful. John Minford's translation of 'The Deer And The Cauldron was correct to the nearest sense. Because 'The Deer' and 'The Cauldron' both had symbolic meanings and implications.

    From Chapter 1:

    "Good for you, my son!" he sighed. "They are the cleaver and we are the meat. They are the cauldron and we are the deer."

    "You explained 'they are the cleaver and we are the meat' the other day, papa," said the boy. "It's what they say when people are massacred or beheaded. Like meat or fish being sliced up on the chopping-board. Does 'they are the cauldron and we are the deer' mean the same thing?"

    "Yes, more or less," said the man; and since the train of soldiers and prison carts was fast receding, he took the boy by the hand.

    "Let's go indoors now," he said. "It's too windy for standing outside. Inside, the man picked up a writing brush and moistened it on the ink-slab; then, on a sheet of paper, he wrote the character for a deer.

    "The deer is a wild animal, but although it is comparatively large, it has a very peaceable nature. It eats only grass and leaves and never harms other animals. So when other animals want to hurt it or eat it, all it can do is run away. If it can't escape by running away, it gets eaten."

    He wrote the characters for "chasing the deer" on the sheet of paper. "That's why in ancient times they often used the deer as a symbol of the empire. The common people, who are the subjects of empire, are gentle and obedient. Like the deer's, it is their lot to be cruelly treated and oppressed. In the History of the Han Dynasty it says 'Qin lost the deer and the world went chasing after it'. That means that when the Qin emperor lost control of the empire, ambitious men rose up everywhere and fought each other to possess it. In the end it was the first Han emperor, who got this big, fat deer by defeating the Tyrant King
    of Chu."

    "I know," said the boy. "In my story-books it says 'they chased deer on the Central Plain'. That means they were all fighting each other to become emperor.

    The scholar nodded, pleased with his son's astuteness. He drew a picture of a cauldron on the sheet of paper.

    "In olden times they didn't use a cooking-pot on the stove to cook their food; they used a three-legged cauldron like this and lit a fire underneath it. When they caught a deer they put it in a cauldron to seethe it. Those ancient rulers and great ministers were very cruel. If they didn't like somebody, they would pretend they had committed some crime or other, and then they would put them in a cauldron and boil them. In the Records of an Historian Lin Xiangru says to the son of Qin, 'Deceiving your majesty was a capital offense. I beg to approach the cauldron.' What he meant was, 'I deserve to die. Put me in the cauldron and boil me.'"

    "Often in my story-books I've read the words 'asking about the cauldrons in the Central Plain'," said the boy. "It seems to mean the same thing as 'chasing the deer in the Central Plain'."

    "It does," said the man. "King Yu of the Xia Dynasty, the first Dynasty that ever was, collected metal from all the nine provinces of the empire and used it to cast nine great cauldrons with. 'Metal' in those days meant bronze. Each of these bronze cauldrons had the name of one of the provinces on it and a map showing the mountains and rivers of that province. In later times whoever became master of the empire automatically became the guardian of these cauldrons. In The Chronicle of Zuo it says that when the Viscount of Chu was reviewing his troops on Zhou territory and the Zhou king sent Prince Man to him with his royal compliments, the Viscount questioned Prince Man about the size and weight of the cauldrons. Of course, as ruler of the whole empire, only the Zhou king has the right to be guardian of the cauldrons. For a mere Viscount like the ruler of Chu to ask a questions about them showed that he was harbouring thoughts of rebellion and planning to depose the Zhou king and seize the empire for
    himself."

    "So 'asking about the cauldron' and 'chasing the deer' both mean wanting to be
    emperor," said the boy. "And 'not knowing who will kill the deer' means not knowing who will be emperor."

    "That's right," said the man. "as time went by, these expressions came to be applied to other situations as well, but originally they were only used in the sense of wanting to be emperor." He sighed. "For the common people, thought, the subjects of empire our role is to be the deer. It may be uncertain who will kill the deer, but the deer gets killed all right. There's no uncertainty about that."
    Source: http://www.heroic-cinema.com/eric/cauldron.html
    Last edited by FruityPunch; 01-28-06 at 07:54 AM.
    "By nature, men are nearly alike; by practice, they get to be wide apart."

  12. #32
    Senior Member Siven's Avatar
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    I disagree that the 侣 in ROCH specifically includes the condor. It may be interpreted as "friend, partner, companion," but far more often it's used to indicate a more intimate relationship.
    林家有女玉啄成
    嫣然巧笑艳冠人
    纤纤起舞随风动
    疑似飞燕又重生

  13. #33
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    I agree with Siven. I think 神雕侠侣' means Divine Eagle & The Heroic Couple, which means the eagle, Yang Guo and Xiao Long Nu.
    Last edited by kidd; 01-28-06 at 03:11 PM.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

  14. #34
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    IMO, the first part definitely mean Divine Eagle,

    The second referred to a hero (I know candide don't like translating it as a hero) being a mate or partner (which is Yang Guo). Somehow I just don't see it as a couple.

    Divine Eagle, the Heroic Lover.

    _____________________

    Edit: Actually forget this part, I went to recheck it is actually Shen Diao Xia Lu.

    While in HSDS, the yellow dressed girl said something like Shen Diao Xia Nu. For this I would translate it as the Divine Eagle, and the Heroic Couple.


    Just my thought, not really a translator.
    Last edited by TaiHan; 01-28-06 at 12:17 PM.

  15. #35
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Hmm. I always thought it was 神雕侠, Divine Eagle Hero (which was YG's title)
    and then 侣, that is, companions (which is what the word means).

  16. #36
    Senior Member HuangYushi's Avatar
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    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu
    Xiao Ao = Basically, to laugh in a way that derides (also: "scoffs", "jeers", "mocks", "ridicules", among others)
    Jiang Hu = Basically, the world.

    Therefore, Xiao Ao Jiang Hu can logically be called: "Mocking at the World".
    The phrase:
    1. Does not sound weird as the title of the song written by Liu Zhenfeng and Qu Yang, which is basically the result of 2 guys from differrent sides of the fence overcoming man-made barriers to become the best of friends.
    2. Takes into consideration Linghu Chong's disregard for many of the norms of the society that he lived in.
    3. Takes into consideration the novel's general plot of nested deceptions (things are not what they seem) and its undertones of irony.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siven
    The Record of Butchering a Dragon While Leaning Against the Sky
    I personally prefer (and use): "Relying on Heaven for the Slaughter of the Dragon".
    Last edited by HuangYushi; 01-29-06 at 01:25 AM.
    Jin Yong's Ode to Gallantry [侠客行].
    Quote Originally Posted by atlantean0208
    what about SPT, I need my SPT fix ASAP, pretty pleaseeeee...
    Soon ... SOON!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FruityPunch
    Happy Lunar New Year guys, for those of you who bother to celebrate.

    Wu Xing:

    We can have a poetic nice name, but if in the end it doesn't represent the true meaning of "Xiao Ao Jiang Hu", then we're no different from those TVB producers.

    Cavalier, it sounds a bit too "Westernised" to me. I remember playing a version of Age Of Empires, and there was a mounted unit called Cavalier. Same goes for knights.
    Honestly, I don't care much about the title actually. I treat it only as a fun brain exercise since we already have our title of this story (that is XAJH ). I just want to listen for other opinions and learn some Chinese (+English) from all of you.

    I think HuangYushi's title 'Mocking at the World' sound good too (kinda like my previous one 'Laughs at Martial World' by replacing 'Laughs' by 'Mocking', removing 'Martial' out and add 'the' in my title - just kidding ).

    Again, I don't really take this topic very seriously and I'm just interested to see any English title from everyone (even it is not XAJH - such as 神雕侠侣' , I'm very glad to see it since I'm learning from your guys).


    Happy Lunar New Year! (Xin Nian Kuai Le! - from my good-for-nothing Chinese knowledge)

  18. #38
    Senior Member Siven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi
    I personally prefer (and use): "Relying on Heaven for the Slaughter of the Dragon".
    I was joking about using such an unwieldy title. Then again maybe you're too.
    林家有女玉啄成
    嫣然巧笑艳冠人
    纤纤起舞随风动
    疑似飞燕又重生

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu
    Xiao Ao = Basically, to laugh in a way that derides (also: "scoffs", "jeers", "mocks", "ridicules", among others)
    Jiang Hu = Basically, the world.

    Therefore, Xiao Ao Jiang Hu can logically be called: "Mocking at the World".
    The phrase:
    1. Does not sound weird as the title of the song written by Liu Zhenfeng and Qu Yang, which is basically the result of 2 guys from differrent sides of the fence overcoming man-made barriers to become the best of friends.
    2. Takes into consideration Linghu Chong's disregard for many of the norms of the society that he lived in.
    3. Takes into consideration the novel's general plot of nested deceptions (things are not what they seem) and its undertones of irony.
    You're making the same mistake that I see others make. The term is an idiom, i.e., the meanings of its parts (the words) does not equal the meaning of the idiom as a whole.

    Here's the dictionary definition.

    http://140.111.34.46/cgi-bin/dict/Ge...27743;湖

    Anyway, LZF and QY would not be call their music XAJH if the term really means something as offensive as "mocking the world." These guys want to be left alone to make their music, they are not interested in pissing on the whole world.
    This account is retired.

  20. #40
    Senior Member SolidSnake's Avatar
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    Simple enough, the Indonesian translators translated this title to Ballad of the Wanderers and The Humble Wanderers.
    There are two things a person should never be angry at, what they can help, and what they cannot.
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