LOCH, ROCH or HSDS

[SweetSourSalt]

I agree with the people that hate The Return of the Condor Heroes. I can only base my judgment on Zhang Ji Zhong's TV productions, but wow ... not even the beautiful Jessey Meng Guang Mei was enough to keep me awake during that trainwreck of a series. Although I have a feeling it had everything to do with the novel being a cheap, pointless sequel (unlike its predecessor, which had an ACTUAL epic story and therefore, a POINT) and nothing to do with the production values of the series itself.

Although I did feel like bashing in Huang Xiao Ming's face with a baseball bat throughout the entire series.

Story-wise, I found The Legend of the Condor Heroes to be immediately engaging. Return, on the other hand, is a mistake of Zha Liang Yong's that he never should have written. The story goes from being non-existent, petty crap to being the same rehash and only a shadow of its predecessor's far superior narrative. Not to mention the pathetic cameos of LotCH characters.

The Return of the Condor Heroes (2006) is like some direct-to-DVD Disney movie sequel.

Which brings me to ZJZ's 2006 adaptation, in which pretty much EVERY new actor playing a returning character was INFERIOR to the cast of LotCH (2003). Hong Qi Gong and Ouyang Feng were particularly pathetic. I may hate Ouyang Feng, but You Yong was fantastic in the role, unlike the old fart from Return.

The old guy that plays Guo Jing is also NOTHING like the character ... nor Li Ya Peng ... an epic fail on the part of whoever was involved with the casting.

In addition, Liu Yi Fei is overrated at best, and Yang Guo is easily my most hated character of any wuxia series/novel to date. Huang Xiao Ming's horrible fake acting, fake laughing, annoying little dick personality, and jackass face made it 10x worse. Their little showmance bored me to tears ... when it wasn't causing me to vomit up food.

The only thing that kept me watching was Jessey Meng as Li Mo Chou. Beautiful, fantastic actress ... dark, twisted, entertaining character. And maybe also Yang Mi as Guo Xiang.

The few actors from LotCH (2003) that actually DID reprise their roles (like Wang Wei Guo), made far too few appearances. This series just mostly had me pining for Zhou Xun and Li Ya Peng, a far more believable and engaging wuxia pair than Liu Yi Fei and Huang Xiao Ming.

Not to mention a narrative (the fall of the Jin Empire and the rise of the Mongols) that didn't suck.

Yeah but the ending in the ROCH 2006 version gave the feeling of they are being praised as celebrities but not legendary heroes status because they had yang gou and xiao long on horses parading around the city. In the TVB version, they ended it at the mountain cliff or something with cloud and stuff thus giving us the feeling that they are indeed a legendary couples heroes.

[Wu Nianci]

I agree with the people that hate The Return of the Condor Heroes. I can only base my judgment on Zhang Ji Zhong's TV productions, but wow ... not even the beautiful Jessey Meng Guang Mei was enough to keep me awake during that trainwreck of a series. Although I have a feeling it had everything to do with the novel being a cheap, pointless sequel (unlike its predecessor, which had an ACTUAL epic story and therefore, a POINT) and nothing to do with the production values of the series itself.

Although I did feel like bashing in Huang Xiao Ming's face with a baseball bat throughout the entire series.

Story-wise, I found The Legend of the Condor Heroes to be immediately engaging. Return, on the other hand, is a mistake of Zha Liang Yong's that he never should have written. The story goes from being non-existent, petty crap to being the same rehash and only a shadow of its predecessor's far superior narrative. Not to mention the pathetic cameos of LotCH characters.

The Return of the Condor Heroes (2006) is like some direct-to-DVD Disney movie sequel.

Which brings me to ZJZ's 2006 adaptation, in which pretty much EVERY new actor playing a returning character was INFERIOR to the cast of LotCH (2003). Hong Qi Gong and Ouyang Feng were particularly pathetic. I may hate Ouyang Feng, but You Yong was fantastic in the role, unlike the old fart from Return.

The old guy that plays Guo Jing is also NOTHING like the character ... nor Li Ya Peng ... an epic fail on the part of whoever was involved with the casting.

In addition, Liu Yi Fei is overrated at best, and Yang Guo is easily my most hated character of any wuxia series/novel to date. Huang Xiao Ming's horrible fake acting, fake laughing, annoying little dick personality, and jackass face made it 10x worse. Their little showmance bored me to tears ... when it wasn't causing me to vomit up food.

The only thing that kept me watching was Jessey Meng as Li Mo Chou. Beautiful, fantastic actress ... dark, twisted, entertaining character. And maybe also Yang Mi as Guo Xiang.

The few actors from LotCH (2003) that actually DID reprise their roles (like Wang Wei Guo), made far too few appearances. This series just mostly had me pining for Zhou Xun and Li Ya Peng, a far more believable and engaging wuxia pair than Liu Yi Fei and Huang Xiao Ming.

Not to mention a narrative (the fall of the Jin Empire and the rise of the Mongols) that didn't suck.

LOL why hate ROCH? I love Yang Guo as a character. Dragon Girl is... nothing special... nothing that I hate about it.

[SweetSourSalt]

Picking from these three is difficult, all three are great storyline. Jin Yong is a master indeed.

[Thuchen]

HSDS for sure, it was the best story and had the best hero, I just love Zhang Wuji.

[RYYfan]

Out of those 3, in order of favorites:

ROCH (my all time favorite of JY's novels)
LOCH (I'm in a minority here, but I really hate Huang Rong's character. I know everyone loves her, but I don't know why I can't stand her! I think it's because she's such a biotch in ROCH to Yang Guo.)
HSDS (I think the main guy is too wishy-washy picking which girl he likes...which makes him seem like a playboy. Hence, this is my least favorite)

[Apop Harris]

I voted for LOCH, but actually I just love all of the 3 differently!!

Huang Rong is just irresistibly character, and I love how 5 greats are introduced in this first trilogy.

HSDS is actually a better story because it is more developed, complex with suspense. But I don't like Zhang Wuji.

As for ROCH, YG-XLN romance is sometimes too much for me, but I enjoy other plot such as YG dilemma about GJ, and Jin Lun - Guo Xiang relationship.

[Drunken Sword]

I voted ROCH, It's my favorite series in general... (and I'm sure it will stay like that)
I do like HSDS also!! I haven't watched LOCH jet, but I'm sure it will be good also!

[nedayaj]

Wow I'm surprise a lot of people like LOCH... I like LOCH but I like HSDS more. I think it's because I saw it first and I grew to love Wu Xia through that.

[Christos200]

I prefer LOCH, mainly because it has two of my favorite Wuxia characters, Guo Jing and Yang Kang. Also, LOCH has some pretty good adaptions. All adaptions I have seen (1982, 2003 and 2008) are very good. And, it has Genghis Khan. ROCH has a bit too much romance for my taste. In all adaptions of ROCH I have seen (1983, the Singapore one and 2006), I always loved the parts where Yang Guo is without Dragon Girl but the romance between those two did not allow me to enjoy the story as much as I would. The HSDS is enjoyable, but Wuji's inability to choose a girl made me hate a bit the guy.

[goodrick]

My favorite is LOCH followed by HSDS. ROCH is my least favorite of all Jin Yong novels.

[hirobo2]

HSDS: This epic is mostly ego food. The story is presented so as you make you believe you are Zhang Wuji, not simply watching him. But you, the viewer, ARE Zhang Wuji. Started out as a nobody. You become the mighty leader of a cult, essentially their King. You have a harem of beautiful women obsessing over you. These are ideas the human ego loves very much. Now, before you say the story is about tying fiction with real historical events, I say those are just side distractions. The core of the story is a harem wuxia fiction. Nothing more. Easily my least favorite of the three for being so superficial.

LOCH: The heart of this epic is about two types of personalities. Guo Jing is Luke Skywalker. He always does good, never gets tempted over the dark side. He becomes immensely powerful, just as Luke did. But Luke Skywalker was easily the most boring character. The one who drew most ppl's attention was Darth Vader. Yang Kang is Vader. He is the anti-thesis of the do-gooder. He becomes corrupted by the dark side early on in his fight for his version of "justice", which doesn't get resolved until ROCH. Hence, LOCH is easily my 2nd favorite in the trilogy.

ROCH: Essential story is about the greater the demon (Yang Kang), the greater the redeeming saint (Yang Guo). This is written in the Bible:

"But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong."

Those two lines from the Bible basically sum up ROCH. Look at the Yangs. You'd think Yang Kang trying to side with the Mongolians to put an end to things was a foolish thing to do? No, it led to Yang Guo having a greater effect on the ppl when he redeemed his father's reputation. You'd think losing an arm would make Yang Guo weak and unsuitable for martial arts afterwards? Wrong, the one arm man emerges to become the strongest man next to Guo Jing. This is why I like ROCH best. Just read those two lines from the Bible again. They're so beautiful. Whoever can craft a story out of those two lines is a literary genius!


All in all, ROCH was the one where Jin Yong pulled all the stops, put all his creativity and skills with words to test their limits! LOCH and HSDS can't ever hold a candle to ROCH when you look at it from the above literary perspective!

[ToastedRossi]

In terms of quality, I'm pretty sure that the order is ROCH, HSDS, with LOCH as the weakest of Jin Yong's long novels.

ROCH's main weaknesses are that it's too overly dependent on LOCH and that its plot is driven a bit too much by coincidence. However, it has a very strong theme and excellent main and supporting casts. The big shift in perspective with Guo Xiang also works very well, and it also has some of the best fights in any of Jin Yong's novels.

HSDS isn't a romance, but it feels that way at times. The story structure is a bit weird, and doesn't flow particularly well. The other qualities are still pretty good though - the great relationships between the character groups, the distinctiveness of the titular weapons, and the karmic outcomes.

LOCH traditionally is the most well-loved of Jin Yong's novels, but I get the feeling that its stature has deteriorated over time. The supporting cast is fantastic; with the Greats being some of the most memorable characters in all of Jin Yong's books. However, I feel that Guo Jing and Huang Rong aren't very good. Coupled with a plot that's sort of just exists without much rhyme or reason, the whole thing reads worse than most of Jin Yong's other books.

[hirobo2]

HSDS: This epic is mostly ego food. The story is presented so as you make you believe you are Zhang Wuji, not simply watching him. But you, the viewer, ARE Zhang Wuji. Started out as a nobody. You become the mighty leader of a cult, essentially their King. You have a harem of beautiful women obsessing over you. These are ideas the human ego loves very much. Now, before you say the story is about tying fiction with real historical events, I say those are just side distractions. The core of the story is a harem wuxia fiction. Nothing more. Easily my least favorite of the three for being so superficial.

LOCH: The heart of this epic is about two types of personalities. Guo Jing is Luke Skywalker. He always does good, never gets tempted over the dark side. He becomes immensely powerful, just as Luke did. But Luke Skywalker was easily the most boring character. The one who drew most ppl's attention was Darth Vader. Yang Kang is Vader. He is the anti-thesis of the do-gooder. He becomes corrupted by the dark side early on in his fight for his version of "justice", which doesn't get resolved until ROCH. Hence, LOCH is easily my 2nd favorite in the trilogy.

ROCH: Essential story is about the greater the demon (Yang Kang), the greater the redeeming saint (Yang Guo). This is written in the Bible:

"But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong."

Those two lines from the Bible basically sum up ROCH. Look at the Yangs. You'd think Yang Kang trying to side with the Mongolians to put an end to things was a foolish thing to do? No, it led to Yang Guo having a greater effect on the ppl when he redeemed his father's reputation. You'd think losing an arm would make Yang Guo weak and unsuitable for martial arts afterwards? Wrong, the one arm man emerges to become the strongest man next to Guo Jing. This is why I like ROCH best. Just read those two lines from the Bible again. They're so beautiful. Whoever can craft a story out of those two lines is a literary genius!


All in all, ROCH was the one where Jin Yong pulled all the stops, put all his creativity and skills with words to test their limits! LOCH and HSDS can't ever hold a candle to ROCH when you look at it from the above literary perspective!

This is only for the story as far as they're concerned. But the adaptations are a different matter all together and I would rate the ones I've seen as follows (from best to worse):

1. HSDS 2009.
2. LOCH anime (actually ROCH story animated).
3. Swordsman 2014.
4. LOCH 2003.
5. ROCH 1984/1995.
6. ROCH 2006.

(P.S. I have yet to see ROCH 2015. Only Youtube has the uncut (ie. extended version) and I don't want to watch YT quality videos).

[wkeej]

With 2017 LOCH and 2019 HSDS (both very good production), when is the new ROCH coming out (though I am no fan of ROCH)?