Yan 13

[Candide]

What's so hard to accept about a martial arts that is evil and unorthodox so much so that the user can't control it? Same thing happened to Linghu Chong in XAJH when he learned Ren Woxing's Star Absorbing Stance. He couldn't help absorbing other people's internal energy and in several instances he admitted that he couldn't control it himself.

LHC didn't turn his Star Absorbing around and suck himself to death although he knew that it was evil. Not to mention that none of JY characters, half way through his evil stances (within about 1/googol second), would go "ZOMG this is too evil, I need to kill myself quick to rid the world of this badass stance". There's a time for suspense of disbelief and there's a time when the BS meter just breaks beyond repair.

If he unleashed the technique on XXF originally, the sword should be pointing in his direction, yet instead of dropping the sword when he realizes its dark evil blah blah he has to turn it around to stab himself?

Sshhhh don't let logic get in the way! I mean, he could just as easily stab the ground or a nearby tree... but no, it's easier and makes more sense to stab himself.

Btw maxwell, I didn't reply to you because I think you're going off your tits on some totally irrelevant points to what have been said on this topic.

[bliss]

Well ... to be honest, if you actually read the last duel between Yan Shisan and Xie Xiaofeng, there really wouldn't be any reason to argue with logic and reason. The whole description of the fight borders on the fantastical. It is not your normal wuxia type martial arts. Yan Shisan's Sword 15 totally engulfed the world in its darkness, it sucked away all life and power from everything around them. That sword technique was DEATH itself. When you unleash DEATH, someone has to DIE. The grim reaper won't settle for stabbing a tree or the ground. Sword 15 wasn't a sword technique, it was a gateway to hell. Yan Shisan didn't realize this until he finally executed his technique. Seeing no other alternative, he would rather Sword 15 take his own life than Xie Xiaofeng's life.

Maybe it just seems strange because we aren't used to such fantastical elements in wuxia. Gu Long's writing has always been very symbolic and metaphoric in its meanings and plot devices. Like reading poetry, we shouldn't rely on logic and reason to dissect its inner workings. We should just read along and enjoy the ride. I admit his style isn't sensible or enjoyable for everyone. But as the old saying goes, to each their own.

[bobbywu]

anyway we can get a translation of that duel????


it does sound pretty awesome.

[PJ]

It's like no one really criticises the Golden Wheel Monk for being such a big bastard but there were many who blasted GJ and HR for their niggardly treatment towards YG.

I guess you have a point about the world already knowing, although I seldomly hear criticism towards the Guo couple of anything!

However, I have heard some people calling ROCH 3ed edition - Golden Wheel Monk's saving Guo Xiang "touching" or "redeeming." Now, maybe it's just me with my strange mode of thinking, but doesn't Golden Wheel Monk's gesture basically have the same intention as Yan 13's? Both are trying to save life by surrending their own life. How come Golden Wheel Monk gets all the honor while people think Yan 13 is stupid? In my opinion, people who think the latter are being overly harsh on Yan 13.

Well ... to be honest, if you actually read the last duel between Yan Shisan and Xie Xiaofeng, there really wouldn't be any reason to argue with logic and reason. The whole description of the fight borders on the fantastical. It is not your normal wuxia type martial arts. Yan Shisan's Sword 15 totally engulfed the world in its darkness, it sucked away all life and power from everything around them. That sword technique was DEATH itself. When you unleash DEATH, someone has to DIE. The grim reaper won't settle for stabbing a tree or the ground. Sword 15 wasn't a sword technique, it was a gateway to hell. Yan Shisan didn't realize this until he finally executed his technique. Seeing no other alternative, he would rather Sword 15 take his own life than Xie Xiaofeng's life.

Maybe it just seems strange because we aren't used to such fantastical elements in wuxia. Gu Long's writing has always been very symbolic and metaphoric in its meanings and plot devices. Like reading poetry, we shouldn't rely on logic and reason to dissect its inner workings. We should just read along and enjoy the ride. I admit his style isn't sensible or enjoyable for everyone. But as the old saying goes, to each their own.

Well said once again, bliss. I for one believe that otherworldly content should be approached from a different angle. Apply too much everyday logic to abstract concepts kind of defeats the purpose. Let us remember that this IS wuxia FICTION after all.

[PJ]

We can debate all day why Yan 13's decided to end his own life, but ultimately, it's the intention and the results the matter. I believe this exchange between Jing Wuming and Little Li Flying Dagger's disciple help explain Gu Long's philosophy on the role of martial arts, and gives us some insights to why Yan 13's action is rather noble.

　　荆无命缓缓道：“我己有多年来曾见到李寻欢了，我一直都在找他。”
　　他的声音突然提高，又道：“因为我还想找他比一比，究竟是他的刀快，还是我的剑快！”叶开听着，只有听 着。
　　荆无命竞又叹息一声，道：“但现在我却已改变了主意，你可知道是为了什么？”
　　叶开当然不知道。
　　荆无命道，“是因为你。”
　　叶开又很意外：“因为我？”
　　荆无命道：“看见了你，我才知道我是比不上李寻欢的。”
　　他冷漠的声音竟似变得有些伤感，过了很久，才接着道：“路小佳只懂得杀人，可是你…你刚才出手三次，却 都是为了救人的命！”
　　刀本是用来杀人的。
　　懂得用刀杀人并不困难，要懂得如何用刀救人，才是件困难的事。叶开想不到荆无命居然也懂得 这道理。
　　荆无命道：“上官金虹虽然死在李寻欢手里，但他的武功，却的确在李寻欢之上。”
　　叶开在听着。
　　上官金虹和李寻欢的那一战，在江湖中已被传得接近神话。
　　神话总是美丽动人的，但却绝不会真实。
　　荆无命道：“李寻欢能杀了上官金虹，并不是因为他的武功，而是因为他的信心。”
　　李寻欢一直相信正义必定战胜邪恶，公道必定常在人间。
　　所以他胜了。
　　荆无命道：“他们交手时，只有我一个人是亲眼看见的，我看得出他的武功，实在不如上官金虹，我一直不懂 ，他怎么会战胜的。”
　　他慢慢地接着道：“但现在我已了解，一件兵器的真正价值，并不在它的本身，而在于它做的事 。”
　　叶开承认。
　　荆无命道：“李寻欢能杀上官金虹，只因为他并不是为了想杀人而出手的，他做的事，上可无愧于天下，下则 无愧于人。”
　　一个人若为了公道和正义而战，就绝不会败。

[PJ]

Sshhhh don't let logic get in the way! I mean, he could just as easily stab the ground or a nearby tree... but no, it's easier and makes more sense to stab himself.

By your logic, just when Xiao Feng already had Yelu Hongji under control -- his mission was accomplished. So why did he decide to kill himself? Doesn't that seem redundant to you? It would be much easier to walk away. If he felt guilty, he could have just apologized to Yelu, or drink his guilt out later. But no, he had to stab himself with a broken arow./

Come on Candide, I'm sure you know that sometimes the most convenient path is not the most effective, and I'm sure that both Xiao Feng and Yan 13 realize this; that's why their fate became one of sacrifice. Xiao Feng's death can be viewed as a puzzle, while Yan 13's is one of abstraction.

I do know this: if Xiao Feng's suicide can be considered a nobel act, then Yan 13 should not be called an idiot.

[bliss]

Will be posting a translation of the duel between Yan Shisan and Xie Xiaofeng in its own thread very shortly. Stay tuned!

[Humplewumps]

It is not your normal wuxia type martial arts. Yan Shisan's Sword 15 totally engulfed the world in its darkness, it sucked away all life and power from everything around them. That sword technique was DEATH itself. When you unleash DEATH, someone has to DIE. The grim reaper won't settle for stabbing a tree or the ground. Sword 15 wasn't a sword technique, it was a gateway to hell.

Dude, this is conjuring up images of the Shun Goku Satsu. With that kinda description, doesn't it put people like Y13, XXF and DP leagues ahead of people like LXF and CLX and Shangguan JH?

So how did Ding Peng break it?

[PJ]

Dude, this is conjuring up images of the Shun Goku Satsu. With that kinda description, doesn't it put people like Y13, XXF and DP leagues ahead of people like LXF and CLX and Shangguan JH?

Hey, Not sure if you have seen Tigerwong's ranking of top 50 Gu Long warriors. I will paste it here so you can take a look.
(by the way, I haven't seen you voting for Yan Shi San in the swordsman game lately )

TigerWong's Gu Long top 50 fighters (starting with the strongest):

XiaoYao Hou (X11L)
DongGuo Xian Sheng (TSATE)
Shen Lang (WLWS)
Yin Ji "Water Matriarch" (CLX)
Yu PeiYu (TSATE)
Xie XiaoFeng (older version, FMCS)
Ding Peng (FMCS)
Old Man Gong (LXF)
Yan Shi San (3YM)
Yan NanTian (Twins)
YaoYue Gong Zhu (Twins)
Ji BeiQing (TSATE)
Ye Di "Night Emperor" (BFH)
Gong Jiu (LXF)
Zhu Yun (7W - Fists)
Tie ZhongTang (BFH)
Feng San (TSATE)
Shi GuanYin (CLX)
Xiao WangSun (Lovers Arrow)
Kuai Huo Wang "Happy King" (WLWS)
Tian ChiXing (TSATE)
Xiao ShiYi Lang (X11L)
Fang BaoEr (TWSRF)
Ge Lun LaMa (Land of Condors)
Lan Da Xian Sheng (Lovers Arrow)
ShangGuan JinHong (Dagger Li)
Li XunHuan (Dagger Li)
LianXian Gong Zhu (Twins)
Yuan SuiYun (CLX)
Lu XiaoFeng (LXF)
Chu LiuXiang (CLX)
XiMen ChuiXue (LXF)
Ye GuCheng (LXF)
Bai Yi Ren "White Shirt Man" (TWSRF)
Di QingLin (7W - Separation Hook)
Xiao LeiXue (Heroes Shed No Tears)
Bu Ying (Land of Condors)
Lei Bian Lao Ren (BFH)
DuGu Chi (Land of Condors)
Xie Yi Ren "Blood Shirt Man" (CLX)
Li HongYing (X11L)
Yang LuLiu (X11L)
Zi Yi Hou "Purple Marquis" (TWSRF)
Xie BaoBao "The Hand" (CLX)
Jing WuMing (younger version - Dagger Li)
A Fei (younger version - Dagger Li)
Ding Xi (7W - Tyrant Spear)
Ye Kai (BorderTown)
Fu HongXue (younger version - BorderTown)
Hua ZhenZhen (CLX)

[bliss]

Dude, this is conjuring up images of the Shun Goku Satsu. With that kinda description, doesn't it put people like Y13, XXF and DP leagues ahead of people like LXF and CLX and Shangguan JH?

So how did Ding Peng break it?

Yes, Yan Shisan, Xie Xiaofeng, and Ding Pang were leagues ahead of Li Xun Huan, Chu Liuxiang, and Shangguan Jinhong. Ding Pang didn't break Yan Shisan's Sword 15, he broke four bodyguards who emulated Sword 15. The swordsman who executes the sword technique always makes all the difference in the world.

[Humplewumps]

I mean, opening Gateways to Hell and techniques that can engulf the world in darkness. We are talking about pushing the realms of fantasy to the levels of epic magic like those seen in Lord of the Rings. And there are still 8 people above him? What kind of insane skills did they perform to top Sword 15?

[PJ]

even then it is unlikely that they matched Yan13's inner strength and destructive force.

So tiger, what is your reason for ranking Ding and Xie above Yan, even suqeezing an Old Man Gong between them?

[bliss]

So tiger, what is your reason for ranking Ding and Xie above Yan, even suqeezing an Old Man Gong between them?

I believe Tiger meant that the bodyguards didn't match Yan Shisan's force and power, but Xie and Ding both eventually surpassed him.

[PJ]

........

I believe Tiger meant that the bodyguards didn't match Yan Shisan's force and power, but Xie and Ding both eventually surpassed him.

oh, ok

[Siven]

The ideal in swordmanship is that the wielder controls the sword and not vice versa. If sword 15 required a kill if executed, no matter the will of the wielder then it does not meet the criteria of higher sword skills.

That's a rather artificial standard isn't it? Besides the romanticism in wuxia requires a certain illogicalness to make it more compelling. Gu Long never liked to systematically organize the actual fighting skills in his books. By his words the more skilled the opponents are the shorter the fights tend to be. Swordsmanship can very well be symbolic of some other pursuit or personal belief, and indeed it can be ironic, if not tragic for one to discover that the height he had been striving for all along turns out to be quite opposite to what he believed himself to be working toward.

[chickenfeet]

Yes, Yan Shisan, Xie Xiaofeng, and Ding Pang were leagues ahead of Li Xun Huan, Chu Liuxiang, and Shangguan Jinhong. Ding Pang didn't break Yan Shisan's Sword 15, he broke four bodyguards who emulated Sword 15. The swordsman who executes the sword technique always makes all the difference in the world.

Yep and looking at the Swordsmen Survival game we're currently playing, there's NO WAY even a combine force of DGQB, ZSF, and WCY could defeat either DP, XXF, or YSS. Let alone winning that game. Gu Long rules!

[Candide]

By your logic, just when Xiao Feng already had Yelu Hongji under control -- his mission was accomplished. So why did he decide to kill himself? Doesn't that seem redundant to you? It would be much easier to walk away. If he felt guilty, he could have just apologized to Yelu, or drink his guilt out later. But no, he had to stab himself with a broken arow./

Come on Candide, I'm sure you know that sometimes the most convenient path is not the most effective, and I'm sure that both Xiao Feng and Yan 13 realize this; that's why their fate became one of sacrifice. Xiao Feng's death can be viewed as a puzzle, while Yan 13's is one of abstraction.

I do know this: if Xiao Feng's suicide can be considered a nobel act, then Yan 13 should not be called an idiot.

Wrong analogy. After that act, Xiao Feng had commited treason to his country and his people. A noble person would commit suicide in such situation. He also planned that the moment he decided to capture the Liao emperor. It wasn't decided in a split second.

This swordnerd is different. In 1/10000000000000000000000000 second while the sword was going down on his opponent, he realised that it was too evil and killed himself... He didn't have to kill himself anyway, he just needed to drive that sword somewhere else so that it won't harm the opponent. Turning it about and stabbing himself is a lot harder than that.

[bliss]

Translation of the duel between Yan Shisan and Xie Xiaofeng :

http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=14381

I have to say, Gu Long was really at the top of his game when he wrote this chapter. The imagery he draws and the emotions he invokes are simply amazing.

Enjoy!

[PJ]

Wrong analogy. After that act, Xiao Feng had commited treason to his country and his people. A noble person would commit suicide in such situation. He also planned that the moment he decided to capture the Liao emperor. It wasn't decided in a split second.

This swordnerd is different. In 1/10000000000000000000000000 second while the sword was going down on his opponent, he realised that it was too evil and killed himself... He didn't have to kill himself anyway, he just needed to drive that sword somewhere else so that it won't harm the opponent. Turning it about and stabbing himself is a lot harder than that.

In the novel Third Young Master's Sword (which I have consulted), it is stated that Yan 13's 15th move was beyond his control. Once the sword was unleashed, it was either him or Xie Xiaofeng, and not killing either person is out of the question (and if you think this is outrageous, how about the notion in Xiao Ao Jiang Hu that opponent's sword has no choice but to fall into Linghu Chong's trap). So, according to the novel, Yan 13 only had 2 choices: kill Xie Xiaofeng or kill himself, because the sword now has its own mind. Xie admitted that he would have died under the sword for sure. Do we not think that Yan 13 committed a noble act by sacrificing his life in order to save another, and many more lives that would have been ruined by the sword's destructive force?

Now, you say that Xiao Feng would commit suicide because he violated his country. Why can't you accept the notion that Yan 13 committed suicide for violating the principle of the sword? As bliss typed: He realized that this wasn't the epitome of swordsmanship, this was only destruction. Yan Shisan decided that such a vicious technique shouldn't exist in the world anymore so he turned his Sword 15 on himself, killing himself and sparing Xie Xiaofeng. The 2 acts are in fact very comparable: they are linked by the suicide, cause by the violation of their dedication, and the self-sacrifice in both.

Xiao Feng spent much of his life defending what he thought was his country, while Yan 13 spent his life perfecting his swordsmanship. Both were dedicated to their passion of choice. To me it seems like they followed their heart. But in fact, both were somewhat mistaking: Xiao Feng was attacking his own country, while Yan 13 went too far with his obsession that now it is beyond his control.

(I admit that the notion of Yan 13's sword being too destructive is a bit loose. But think of it as having gone one step too far with perfecting the sword, that the weapon is no longer under the wielder's control, and the wielder has now become the slave of the sword. I believe this is what is meant by "too much heaven can bring you underground. Heaven can always turn around.")

Xiao Feng may have achieved more wisdom by accepting all nationalities. But I just see that he and Yan 13 followed a similar path to pursue their passion, discover their mistake, and terminate their life in sacrifice. The fact that Ya 13 may have terminated his life with shorter reaction time is irrelevant.

[Candide]

Why can't you accept the notion that Yan 13 committed suicide for violating the principle of the sword?

Of course I can, that's why I called him "swordnerd".