the real shaolin history

[kyss of the sword]

check these sites, quotes from there,
http://www.chinwoomen.com/books/shaolin.html
http://www.ironpalm.com/VPhistory.html
http://aamir.org/martial_arts/ http://www.ghosthand.org/shaolinphilosophy.html

Oddly enough, the Shaolin fighting art's came from a pacifist beginning: the merger of the spiritual philosophies of Buddhism and Taoism. The first and main Shaolin temple was located in Henan (Honan) province, along the north side of Shao Shih [shaoshi] mountain, and built by the royal decree of Emperor Hsiao Wien [Xiao Wen] during the early Northern Wei dynasty (386 - 534 AD) for an Indian Buddhist monk named Batuo (or Fo Tuo in Chinese). (He is most remembered today by his statue, which depicts a fat and jolly seated monk, the "Laughing Buddha".) The temple originally consisted of a round dome used as a shrine and a platform where Indian and Chinese monks translated Indian Buddhist scriptures into Chinese, toiling both day and night

.
Butuo was also known as buddhadahbra. when he taught buddhism at shaolin, there was one monk called hui neng who was physically weak nad got bullied by the other monks. he taught hui neng martial arts. hui neng defeated the monks who bullied him and won respect. he was shaolin's first warrior monk.

Buddhidharma soon saw that the weak physical state that the monks were in (because they neglected their bodies to be pious and humble), would make long periods of meditation impossible. He explained that the body and soul were united; one cannot be catered to at the expense of the other. Legend has it that he introduced the idea of physical fitness as part of meditation with systematized exercises to strengthen the body and mind together by invigorating the intrinsic vital life force (called 'Chi' - "energy" - in Chinese). These early calisthenics were known as the:

Muscle Change Classic [Yijingjing] or Change in Sinews;
Marrow Washing [Xisuijing];
Eighteen Hand Movements of the Lohan or Enlightened Ones [luohan shiba shou].
The idea that the breath could be regulated and then used to promote invigorating physical changes in the body that produce stamina and endurance was a major development towards welding physical movements with health benefits (known as Chi Gung [Qigong]).

Taoists held similar beliefs and practices concerning the cultivation of Chi, breath, and physical movements (known as Nei Gung [Neigong]). Taoist priests and scholars found other similarities with Dhayana Buddhism and were soon attracted to the Shaolin Temple's teachings and came to study there. Taoism taught the avoidance of direct force through contemplation and natural reasoning and saw merit in Shaolin's peaceful and non offensive philosophical foundation. Eventually a hybrid form of Buddhism, called Ch'an in Chinese (and Zen in Japanese where it also soon spread in opularity), emerged that exhibited Buddhist structure, based on insightful meditational reasoning, and Taoist embellishments, based on their Five Elements cycle, the theories of the I Ching [Yijing] and the Ba Qua [bagua] diagrams, along with a merger of various deities and spiritual beings (such as the Eight Taoist Immortals, etc.)

.
damo never entered shaolin till his death. he stayed in a cave and took one disiple hui juk only. after his death, he left behind Muscle Change Classic [Yijingjing] or Change in Sinews;Marrow Washing [Xisuijing];Eighteen Hand Movements of the Lohan or Enlightened Ones [luohan shiba shou] in his belongings.

Another thing that attracted the Taoist priests and scholars was the development of Shaolin Ch'uan Fa ("fighting arts"). Over the years, generations of Shaolin monks worked with the exercises attributed to Buddhidharma to increase their external muscular power and their internal Chi power. The increase of power had encouraged the monks to investigate its peculiar properties and characteristics, testing the limits of the body and Chi. Eventually, the various techniques were used in self defense applications that were evasive and non-confrontational, but still efficient and effective.

Temples were always a target of bandits and rebellious soldiers that wished to either rob them or use the places as their own headquarters. Also, since monks, priests, and nuns traveled far from their temples in their preaching and pilgrimages, self defense on the road became a necessity also. Information was exchanged with professional bodyguards and temple guards met with on the road who were well versed in various martial arts. Techniques were absorbed (mostly from Indian Kalaripayit, Mongolian Shuai Chiao, Moslem fighting systems such as Cha Ch'uan and Tan Tui, and others) and combined with those the Shaolin temple had already created to develop Shaolin Ch'uan Fa, known as Lohan Ch'uan by some (which had three original forms: the Eighteen Hands of the Lohan, the Eight Step, and the 300 plus moves of the Wind Devil Staff), of whose techniques can be seen as the mother or seed of many later fighting forms

abbot fu ju created and carried on several of shaolin's martial arts.

During the end of the Sung dynasty, the Shaolin was in much disarray and many people faked that they were warrior monks. Abbot Fu Ju invited 18 masters (most from Shantung province) to Shaolin to absorb their best technqiues. Form these, he developed 12 forms known as the Kan Jia Quan. He designed an exam, only people who passed this exam could rightfully claim that they were warrior monks. Shortly after this time, Wang Lang perfected these techniques and developed a hybrid martial arts system that was made to fight against other masters. This was the true origin of the now famous Tang Lang or Preying Mantis style. It is commonly thought that he did so in the Ming Dynasty, but Shaolin records dating back to the late Sung period show his name and his achivements

there were several warrior nuns in shaolin as well. it is not true that woman were not allowed on shaolin. a legend goes, a monk from shaolin saw a beautiful young woman being molested by thugs. he saved her and taught her martial arts to protect herself. later she became a nun and accompanied her teacher to e-mei where they got in to battle with bandits at a cliff. they were outnumbered and a bandit hit the nun with a secret weapon on her back. she fell of the cliff. her master killed the remaing bandits and looked for her. failing to find her, he left for shaolin. the nun was saved by villiagers but was crippled. she started a nunnery and taught martial arts. that was the founding of e-mei sect.

[Han Solo]

.
damo never entered shaolin till his death. he stayed in a cave and took one disiple hui juk only. after his death, he left behind Muscle Change Classic [Yijingjing] or Change in Sinews;Marrow Washing [Xisuijing];Eighteen Hand Movements of the Lohan or Enlightened Ones [luohan shiba shou] in his belongings.

HUI JUK!!!!

[HuangYushi]

damo never entered shaolin till his death. he stayed in a cave and took one disiple hui juk only. after his death, he left behind Muscle Change Classic [Yijingjing] or Change in Sinews;Marrow Washing [Xisuijing];Eighteen Hand Movements of the Lohan or Enlightened Ones [luohan shiba shou] in his belongings.

I hope the "hui juk" above does not refer to Xu Zhu [虚竹] in DGSD.

Nevertheless, the book "Origins of Chinese Martial Arts" by Li Xiaoxiang/Laurel Teo from the Asiapac Culture/Asian Studies series names this particular person (i.e. Dharma's disciple as described above) as "Hui Ke" [慧可] in Mandarin Pinyin. (It's "Wai Ho" in Cantonese). The fellow's original name was Ji Guang [姬光].

Now, all we need is a verification by Lav, the resident history enthusiast/expert.

[Laviathan]

Now, all we need is a verification by Lav, the resident history enthusiast/expert.

Thanks for your praise Yushi, but I don't deserve it.

As far as I know, there's no proof that Boddhidarma ever taught any martial arts or physical exercises at Shaolin. Boddhidarma was poisoned by rival Buddhist factions who opposed his Dhayana doctrine, and died, leaving the legacy of Zen Buddhism to his disciple Huike. The Yijinjing and Xisuijing Scriptures were written during the Ming Dynasty by Taoist qigong practitioners, and were (falsely) attributed to Boddhidarma.

[kyss of the sword]

what damo did was merge the then indian buddhist dogma, confusinism and daoism into one version which he called 'zen'. his influence on shaolin was after his death through his disiple huike.(it wasn't hui juk, my bad.) hui ke was supposed to have learned some form of yoga and prana(breathing) exercise from damo alone with some martial arts move. but that can't be proven. the yiyinji and xisuijing were re-written? during the ming dynasty after a decline in shaolin martial arts. there were several periods when the martial arts and qigong of shaolin declined and was moved out of the monstry. the abbots of those times called martial artist from around china, espically those who desendented from shaolin martial arts to return and teach back the lost martial arts. the reason damo is credited with shaolin's martial arts is the martial arts of shaolin were influenced by the zen buddhist dogma that was created by damo. the philosophy led to the moves, so to speak.

[Wu Xing]

what damo did was merge the then indian buddhist dogma, confusinism and daoism into one version which he called 'zen'.

I don't think what you said is quite correct. From what I've read, Damo's teaching is only Buddhism and there is no merging with Confusinism and Daoism. I think it is quite obvious that "at least" Confucianism should not involve with Damo's teaching (or please explain to me where Confucianism is in Damo's teaching). About Daoism, in certain perspective, Daoism share many common thing with Buddhism (at least in philosophical level). However, I think Damo may not be in China long enough to start merge Daoism into his teaching (and I didn't feel like he need to do). Nevertheless, I always can feel the difference between Daomism & Buddhism and I feel that Damo's teaching is quite a traditional Buddhism.

It is true that Damo's teaching may be very unique comparing with other Buddhist monks in China. However, if you read the Buddhist scripture (at least in Hinayana that I know), Buddha's teaching many times are very unique and he taught each person differently based on each person's ability/background/etc. (for someone, in the story, Buddha can enlighten a person with only one statement). Therefore, although Damo was very unique, his teaching was still not go beyond what Buddha did. Honestly, when I read the story of Zen Buddhism in China, I feel that Damo and Huike are still traditional Buddism probably except the direct transmission/teaching (from mind-to-mind) but, as I said before, it was not different from many of Buddha teaching. In fact, the monk that I feel that he was the one who make the Zen Buddhism in China different from the traditional Buddhism is Huineng (I will briefly introduce him below).

If I remember correctly, merging of these 3 schools of philosophy (or religious) happen later in the Chinese history (i.e., after Damo & Huineng - btw, Huineng is 5 generations after Damo). I have read a story about one Buddhist monk who meet a high-ranking person (probably emperor) and he dress by mixing Confucious and Daoist dress in his Buddisht dress. Then he told this person that his teaching combined 3 schools into one. I think the story about this monk is much later from Damo & Huineng period. And, Huineng (one of the most famous Zen Buddhist monk in Chinese history) was uneducated (cannot read & write) who start his spiritual journey after hearing someone reciting Diamond Cutting Sutra (some said he got enlighten at that moment but, in my opinion, he got an eye-opening and really enlighten after he meet his Buddhist master later). Huineng's teaching was not very dependent to Sutra & Buddhist tradition (Huineng himself got enlighten before someone make him a monk) and, I think, he put an importance to a "direct" teaching to one's mind. You may find a brief of Huineng story at

http://zen.thetao.info/read/huineng.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huineng

And I believe that most of the Zen you see today are all linked to Huineng. I think he is the one who set the way of the Zen school we see today. Since Huineng's teaching didn't strict to the Buddhist 'tradition', it is not surprised that the Zen school after him keep changing (like monk start working on the land for living not only asking for food from people like the traditional monk). Maybe (which I don't know whether it is true of not), because of this, some of Zen school merge 3 school into one later in Chinese history.

Or, it might just be because it is the Chinese who study Buddhism and Confucious & Daoism are in Chinese blood/tradition so it naturally & gradually merged together.

This is just my opinion though (please don't believe my words without thinking). If anyone has other information, I am really glad (& want) to hear it. So, please share your information if anyone know something.

About Tendon-Changing & Bone-Marrow Washing Classic, I don't know what is the real story about these 2 books.

EDIT: The Huineng (Hui-neng, Hui Neng) story was recorded in a famous book that includes Huineng's teaching (I think it is called the "Platform Sutra of the 6th Patriarch" and it is called "Hui-Neng Sutra" in Thai). However, many historians (I think) suspect that it might not be a true story. Nevertheless, Huineng was a very important figure in the development of Zen Buddhism in China (or Chan/Ch'an). Another website I found that contains some interesting information is

http://www.hku.hk/philodep/courses/r...n/Buddhism.htm

[Wu Xing]

what I try to say is that merging of 3 schools took sometimes and it might not come out of one person (especially Damo) and, I think, it happened later in Chinese history. Also, I have some doubt about how much level of 'merging' in each branch of Chan/Ch'an/Zen Buddhism. This is because I'm not so sure how Confucianism was merged into Buddhism.

[dgfds01]

what I try to say is that merging of 3 schools took sometimes and it might not come out of one person (especially Damo) and, I think, it happened later in Chinese history. Also, I have some doubt about how much level of 'merging' in each branch of Chan/Ch'an/Zen Buddhism. This is because I'm not so sure how Confucianism was merged into Buddhism.

The merging of the 3 schools = Neo-Confucianism? That would have been during teh Song dynasty.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-confucianism

Neo-Confucianism was a response by the Confucians to the dominance of the Taoists and Buddhists. Neo-Confucians such as Zhu Xi recognized that the Confucian system of the time did not include a thoroughgoing metaphysical system and so devised one. There were many competing views within the Neo-Confucian community, but overall, a system emerged that resembled both Buddhist and Daoist thought of the time and some of the ideas expressed in the Book of Changes (I Ching) as well as other yin yang theories associated with the Taiji symbol (Taijitu). A well known Neo-Confucian motif is paintings of Confucius, Buddha, and Lao Tzu all drinking out of the same vinegar jar, paintings associated with the slogan "The three teachings are one!"

[Wu Xing]

The merging of the 3 schools = Neo-Confucianism? That would have been during teh Song dynasty.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-confucianism

That is interesting. I don't know much about Neo-Confucianism actually (in fact, I don't know much about Confucianism as well although I have read one or two books about Confucious/Confucianism and Comic version of his life-story before).

Also, the story that I heard about merging 3 schools was from Buddhist monk (probably Ch'an/Zen). I think I still have a book with me. I probably check it out tonight (in my local time).

Btw, Thanks for your information.

[Rene Ritchie]

New poster, please forgive any blunders...

True Shaolin history is pretty much buried under pulp-fiction and political manipulation. From Sun Yat-Sen's adaption of Tang Shaolin Xi Lu Fan legends into a Nationalist history that would appeal to the society members whose support he needed, to the early exodus of Chinese MA teachers who wove the many Wuxia tales into the histories of their arts, which has been lost during Taiping and Boxer and PRC revolutions, to the modern Disney-fication of Songshan, it exists more in story now than fact.

The story of the nun and the girl is a good example of an archetypal Shaolin myth, and is found as the core creation story for many martial arts including Foshan Wing Chun (Yongchun), Fujian White Crane (Baihe), Hakka Chu Family Mantis (Kejia Zhujia Tanglang), etc.

[Wu Xing]

I have checked my book last night. Only book that I have about Ch'an/Zen that talk about 'Zen blends aspects of Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism and puts them to use in daily life' (I copy the exact statement from the book) is from a Comic book titled "Wisdom of the Zen masters" by Tsai Chih Chung (translated in English by Brian Bruya) page 98.

The monk's name is Shanhui. However, the book didn't tell how Ch'an/Zen "blends" aspects of these 3 schools. From the book, the it show that Shanhui born in 497 (page 96) which I don't know what it really means. Honestly, it confuses me since I think the book talk about Zen monk in the time order (from old to new period). Shanhui happen in the book a bit later (this book has 110-120 pages) but his time is even before Damo (Bodhidharma) who arrive China in year 527 (page 12). Maybe, it is a mistake from the book or I don't understand what the author means. Nevertheless, it is a Comic version that involves famous Zen masters's history (+teaching). This book is quite fun to read but I don't expect to be a very detail & informative. So, I don't expect it to be very accurate as well (e.g., many information in this book may happen to be fiction/tale that public believe but might not be the true story).

For my other serious books about Zen, I never see anything about blending/combining/merging Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism in Ch'an/Zen. Nevertheless, in my opinion & probably in most of people who study Zen, Zen got quite a bit of influence from Daoism.

[Wu Xing]

About Shaolin's "real"/"true" story, in my opinion, we will never know it. However, there are many scholars who did research in this topic. In the old China, in Qing dynaty period, there is one scholar who spend his lifetime doing the research about the history of Chinese martial art (including Shaolin). His research is very informative & pretty unbiased (i.e., what he believe is the truth has a strong support and anything that he was not sure, he mentioned it in his book). However, I forget his name & the book (I need to ask my master again and I will).

Basically, from what I know (I do not say that this information come from the book I talk above), most of Shaolin story like Damo + etc. are not real. Damo is real but he is unlikely to teach "martial art" in Shaolin. Also, in my opinion, most stories about Tendon-Changing Classic and Bone-Marrow Washing Classic are likely to be just a fiction/tale too (i.e., not a true story). It is true that both classics really exist and, in fact, I have learned 18 Lo-han Gong as well (which is a Qi-Gong used in Praying-Mantis style). But, honestly, I don't know the origin of these classics (although I've heard a few stories but I don't believe any of them).

In a book titled "The Sword Polisher's Record: The Way of Kung-fu" by Adam Hsu, his writing contains many useful information especially he try to dispell many Kung Fu (Gong Fu) myths including Shaolin (there is one chapter talking about Shaolin & its infuence on Chinese martial art). It is a good book that, in my opinion, every serious Chinese martial art practitioner should have/read although I accept that some of his writing are biased through his own idea of Chinese martial art. I don't have this book with me right now. From what I remember, he said Shaolin is not an important factor (at least as much as most public believe) in the development of Chinese martial art although many of Shaolin monks were skillful fighters (Note: Shaolin was famous in staff/stick). Also, many of Shaolin monks were skillful fighter before they became monks since some of them used to be military officers, soldiers, bandits, etc. before their monkhood. If I understand correctly, information in Adam Hsu's writing is also based on the research of the person who did research about the history of Chinese martial art I mentioned in the first paragraph + other important books/documents such as "The New Record of Arm" by the famous Ming general Qi Ji Guang (Note: Adam Hsu is very knowledgable in Chinese martial art and Chinese literature although he may be a bit biased toward his idea in certain level).

[dgfds01]

That is interesting. I don't know much about Neo-Confucianism actually (in fact, I don't know much about Confucianism as well although I have read one or two books about Confucious/Confucianism and Comic version of his life-story before).

Also, the story that I heard about merging 3 schools was from Buddhist monk (probably Ch'an/Zen). I think I still have a book with me. I probably check it out tonight (in my local time).

Btw, Thanks for your information.

No problem.

I don't know much about Confucianism (and Buddhism and Taosim for that matter). It was just something I picked up while reading up on the Song Dynasty.

Let me know if you find the story on the merging of 3 schools. Sounds interesting.

[kyss of the sword]

funnily enough, yiyinji being a 'mythical' manual, there is a anctual set of qigong exercise called yiyinji taught at shaolin schools(all over the world, not just the temple). it consist of twelfe moves and it was illustrated in this aisapic book about shaolin. it's not top secret like in the novels, through. and looks pretty ordinary.

[Wu Xing]

funnily enough, yiyinji being a 'mythical' manual, there is a anctual set of qigong exercise called yiyinji taught at shaolin schools(all over the world, not just the temple). it consist of twelfe moves and it was illustrated in this aisapic book about shaolin. it's not top secret like in the novels, through. and looks pretty ordinary.

I never say that Tendon-Changing Class (Yi Jin Jing) is a "mythical" manual since I know it at least 3 versions (one version from my previous taiji master taught, one found in a old martial art manual/book, another one in 18 Lo-han Gong). So, I say Yi Jin Jing itself is not a top secret. However, the story of origin of Yi Jin Jing that most people know might not be the real story and this could be a myth...not the Yi Jin Jing itself. Well, people mostly say the Damo was the one who create Yi Jin Jing (along with some of Shaolin martial art), right? But the real story could be different from what public believe.

I have no problem to believe that Yi Jin Jing really exist in Shaolin since I also learn a bit of Praying Mantis style. This style credited Wang Lang as its creater and Wang Lang's martial art includes Shaolin (at least from the story I heard). The internal training of Praying Mantis style that I learn is 18 Lo-han style that I was told that it includes Yi Jin Jing (Tendon-Changing Classic) & Xi Sui Jing (Bone-Marrow Washing Classic) in this Qi Gong or Nei Gong practice and, importantly, this 18 Lo-han came from Shaolin. We need to believe what we learn from in a certain extent, right? Also I will not be surprised if I later learn that it might not come from Shaolin.

However, who create Yi Jin Jing & Xi Sui Jing is another story and most of storied we heard could be a myth. Let me quote a few paragraphs from Adam Hsu's "The Sword Polisher's Record" here (taken from "The Myth of Shaolin Kung-fu" from page 59 to page 65). Start with the first 3 paragraphs from page 61-62,

I do not debate that Shaolin was a famous Zen temple. Whether Ta Mo taught exercises at the temple, however, can be neither proven nor disproven because there is not enough evidence. Prior to Ta Mo's arrival at the Shaolin Temple, there were monks who had already mastered kung-fu. Many of the monks at Shaolin were men who originally came to the temple seeking refuge. Some of these men were killers, rapists, and thieves. Once, however, they were accepted by the temple as monks, and if their crime had not been of the unpardonable sort (such as treason) they would no longer be hunted. This type of man often had some kung-fu technique, and the temple was an ideal place for working on it.

The monks lived simply and, not having to worry about making a living, they had plenty of time to practice kung-fu. The dictates of Buddhism governed the temple; killing was not tolerated. Within this unusual environment the monks could get together and, respectfully and without fear, exchange their kung-fu knowledge. Over the years, the kung-fu at Shaolin may very well have improved and become more sophisticated, but at no time was the Shaolin Temple considered a kung-fu school. To assert that kung-fu originated there with Ta Mo is absurd. The Chinese brought kung-fu to the Shaolin Temple and, before that, it had already been practiced throughout China for hundreds of years.

The most famous weapon of the Shaolin Temple was the staff. This fact helps to illustrate that Shaolin was a Buddhist school, not a kung-fu school. No weapons were kept in the temple. Machine guns and missiles aren't stored in churches; likewise, weapons were not allowed in a Buddhist temple. The most famous weapon practiced at Shaolin was the staff because it was the only weapon available to the monks.

I'll talk a bit about Ta Mo (Da Mo) Jian (sword) below. But let me put another 3 paragraphs I take from page 63-64 first.

A third reason for the propagation of Shaolin during the Qing dynasty was the kung-fu sifu. Once the name of Shaolin became popular, these men were quick to capitalize on it. They cared little about misconceptions and misunderstandings; they needed to make a living. If Shaolin kung-fu attracted students, these sifu claimed their system descended from it.

To this day many instructors claim to teach Shaolin. However, when I was in training, I met no one who could define Shaolin kung-fu. Mostly what is referred to Shaolin is actually the long fist system (changquan). Long fist has many styles; it is the broadest system in kung-fu. No instructor could prove that what they were teaching came directly from Shaolin. Interestingly, one very popular style of long fist, jia men, comes from the Chinese Muslims. Jia men is till being practiced in northern China.

Today, as in the past, Shaolin kung-fu is less respected in northern China than in southern China. Starting from the end of the Qing dynasty, many instructors moved down to the Yangtze River area. For advertising reasons they emphasized Shaolin. During World War II, these instructors moved further south to Guangzhou and Hong Kong, continuing to use Shaolin myth to the U.S. and other countries. Ironically, there is more Shaolin kung-fu in southern China than in Henan Province itself.

To add some information here, I used to believe that Shaolin martial arts includes 5 animal styles, 72 training method, etc. My master who start learning his kung-fu from Mei-Hua Changquan (one type of long fist style) which was told that it came from Shaolin. My master learned many weapons from this system as well including staff, short stick (both single & double sticks), sword, cane, etc. Many weapons has the name "Ta Mo (Da Mo)" attached to it such as Da Mo Jian (Da Mo sword).

When I asked my master 6-8 years ago (I forget the correct timing) that what is the Shaolin kung-fu, at that time, I expect to hear him talking about all those martial art that I heard before. The answer I got is that it is changquan (long fist) and duanquan (short fist) styles. Nothing about 5 animal styles or 72 training technique. Although changquan is quite famous and well known (knowing correctly or not is another story), duanquan is not quite well-kown in martial art society. If you cannot imagine duanquan, you may find a bit easier to think about tanglang quan (Praying Mantis style) - which make me think about Wang Lang's background somehow. Tanglangquan kinda represent same type of duanquan power issuing (fa jing), i.e., short - explosive - compact (in my opinion), at least this is what I think/remember/understand.

About Da Mo Jian, my master told me that it is not really from Shaolin. In fact, he told me that the famous Shaolin weapon is a staff which I may include those stick-like (wooden) weapon as well. In my kung-fu school, basic staff training is windmill staff (if I remember the name correctly since I practice long spear not staff - I usually tend to forget a lot of things outside my interest) which is from Shaolin (at least this is what I was told). This story is the same as what Adam Hsu wrote in his book.

To provide you a bit about background, although my master and Adam Hsu both studied with the same teacher (grandmaster Liu Yun Chiao) and my master also studied from Adam Hsu in the previous years he arrived California (since Adam Hsu is more senior than my master in the school & practice). My master school background and Adam Hsu are different. Both of them start with changquan. My master started with Shaolin type of changquan but Adam Hsu started with Islamic changquan. I believe that my master idea about Shaolin didn't came from Adam Hsu since my master studied the so called Shaolin style since he was very young (but Adam Hsu didn't, if I remember correctly).

Btw, just in case anyone curious, Islamic long fist (Jia men changquan) didn't come from Islam. It is Chinese but taught to Islamic society/villege long time ago (I don't know when) and those Islamic Chinese people keep practicing until today. I was told that this type of long fist could be the closest to the original long fist because of the Islamic tradition that not changing the teaching of ancesters. About long fist (changquan), we don't know its origin, I only know that it already exist since the beginning of Song dynasty because the first emperor of Song dynasty practice it - his changquan style named taiju changquan usually translated as Song emperor long fist style. In my master's opinion, he think the Islamic changquan system is better than the "Shaolin" changquan system that he learn. After he learn Islamic changquan from Adam Hsu, he almost never taught his previous changquan with anyone again except very young students (<13 years old). I have learned Islamic changquan as well which I learn 3 forms including Tan tui, Pao quan and Cha quan (all three are contained in one long fist system).

Also, I practice with teachers who have background from both Northern & Southern styles (not the same person) and live in an environment that Southern styles dominate as the "real" martial art (i.e., Thailand 10+ years ago and this is because there is almost no qualified northern style masters in Thailand back then - or even now I don't think there is any that I really know) & a school that have only northern styles. I can confirm what Adam Hsu said that Shaolin name was rarely mentioned in northern style (for topic that mentioned including staff, changquan, duanquan, 18 Lo-han Gong and Lo-han fist. In fact, Lo-han fist is related to changquan, or some thought as one type of changquan, and is usually more mentioned than changquan) but most of Southern styles that I know are connected with Shaolin and all of styles are not very old with their origin around the end of Qing dynasty (e.g., Hung Gar, Wing Chun, etc.). This is quite consistent with what Adam Hsu said in the above quoted paragraphs.

Let me put another paragraph from Adam Hsu book in page 62-63 here.

We can continue down through history to the Ming dynasty (A.D. 1368-1644), an important period in kung-fu history. The eminent General Che Chi Kwong (or Qi Ji Guang - noted by Wu Xing) did extensive research on kung-fu in order to help train his soldiers. General Che wrote a book, and in it listed all the good and famous kung-fu styles of his day. There is no mention of Shaolin.

Let me show another 2 last paragraph of this section of the book from page 64-65

In 1928 the Chinese government established in Nanking the Central Government Martial Arts Institute. Initially, the institute helped sustain the Shaolin myth, offering departments in Shaolin and Wu Tang. A member of the staff, Tang Hao, was uncomfortable with this situation. To clarify the misconceptions about Shaolin and Wu Tang, Tang Hao wrote a book titled The Study of Shaolin and Wu Tang. It is a good book, based on honest research. However, it was written elegantly, in classical Chinese. This made it inaccessible to many people, especially the martial artists. The book is also difficult to translated into a foreign language. After the publication of Tang's book, the institute changed its policies on Shaolin and Wu Tang.

Even though this book was published almost six decades ago, and since then lots of other evidence refuting the Shaolin myth has surfaced, people still persist with their fairy tales. I want to make clear that I'm not saying kung-fu did not exist at the Shaolin Temple. I believe kung-fu was practiced there; there is evidence of it in paintings, poems, and in the temple itself. I also agree that the Shaolin Temple helped the government during the Tang dynasty. In the evolution of kung-fu, however, Shaolin kung-fu holds little importance. Shaolin didn't even develop its own style. What is really ridiculous, though, is to pretend that Shaolin is the birthplace of kung-fu. It is time to stop calling what may be a grandchild the grandfather.

I think I quote about 30% of "The Myth of Shaolin Kung-fu" from Adam Hsu's "The Sword Polisher's Record". Hopefully, master Adam Hsu will not mad at me because I copy quite a bit of information from his book without his permission. I hope that it will be useful to see something different about Shaolin myth.

[SkineePanda]

Question about Shaolin's participation on military matters. Besides the time when the 13 monks helping capture Wang ShiChong's nephew and the 40 monks fighting the Wokou, was there any other time when they actually fought in another engagement?

I heard about a time during the reign of KangXi that they did sent some soldier-monks during a campaign against Tibet. But not sure if it was true.

[Rene Ritchie]

That's the Xi Lu Fan legend, held by many scholars to be the creation myth of the Heaven & Earth Society, and drawn from events which may or may not have happened during the Tang.

It's also strangely analogus to the Hakka's help in the Qing skirmishes with the Hokkien in Fujian, the Qing turning on them, and the Hakka's subsequent flight into the Liangguang...

[soeprijo]

Sorry but I'm new here
I always want to know the fate of Hui Ke and Mallow Washing Technique, may someone tell me about this.
I read some books about how Mallow Washing Technique dissapeared after Hui Ke' death, is it true ? And how did Hui Ke die ?
I already tried to contact Laviathan via PM yet no response, maybe busy

THX

[Laviathan]

To soeprijo:

Please check your PM.