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Thread: Dugu Qiubai doubters take note

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Default Dugu Qiubai doubters take note

    One frequently reoccurring forum discussions is on the validity of Demonic Swordsman Dugu Qiubai's claim of his greatness. To those with doubt, I invite you to reconsider your position by reading the following opinion (posted by Laviathan and Zilong):

    Firstly, it is important to remember that Dugu Qiubai didn't exist during LOCH. Jin Yong invented him when he wrote ROCH, so of course no one knows about him.

    But if I would let my imagination go wild, then I'd say:

    1200 - Birth of Guo Jing

    1220 - Birth of Yang Guo

    1240 - Yang Guo finds Dugu's tomb. Dugu probably died around 1170. Let's assume he lived to be 70, so Dugu was born around 1100.

    During his teenage years, Dugu competed with many heroes in Northern China and achieved great fame. He became very proud and arrogant, then, during his 20's (Stage of the Purple Flexible Sword) he unintentionally wounded a righteous person. In Chinese, a "righteous person" (yishi) usually means a patriot. During the period 1120-1130, the Yürchen tribe of the Jin Dynasty invaded the Song Empire. Many wars were fought in Northern China. In his arrogance, Dugu might have wounded a patriotic warrior who was fighting against the Jin troops. Ashamed, Dugu threw away his sword and abandoned his old ways. Instead of purseuing fame and glory, he began to seek defeat as a way to punish himself. It was during this time that he changed his name into Qiubai (Seeking Defeat). To find a worthy opponent, he refined his skills and roamed the realm, but hide his name from the members of the martial arts world, who began to call him "Demonic Swordsman". At his tomb, Dugu stated that he wandered for more than 30 years. Starting from his teens, he should have retreated to the mountains near Xiangyang in his 40's to live as a hermit. This would be around 1145.

    Let's assume Wang Chongyang was about 10 to 20 years younger than Dugu (due to inconsistencies in LOCH timeline, we can't be sure when Wang was born). He used to be a scholar named Wang Zhe but later on started learning martial arts (told by Zhou Botong in LOCH). During his teenage years when he pursued literary studies, he didn't knew anything about the martial arts world. He later trained the fighting arts and raised a militia army to fight the Jin. During his career as a general he concetrated solely on warfare and did not heard the legends and stories about the "Demonic Swordsman". After many years and many lost battles, Wang Chongyang began to wander with Lin Chaoying/became a Taoist but Dugu Qiubai had already retired many, many years ago and his fame was slowly forgotten. Wang chongyang might have heard some vague rumours about a invincible swordsman but he did not knew who he was. Since Dugu Qiubai already retired, he could not learn about Wang Chongyang.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member IcyFox's Avatar
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    This sounds reasonable.

    But I think the reason why no one knew about him was that he roamed Jianghu with the name "Demonic Swordsman" and called himself "Begging For A Defeat" after he retired from Jianghu.

    He called himself "Begging For A Defeat" probably because he could not find a match and was disappointed with Jianghu.

    So WCY and ZBT might have heard about the Demonic Swordsman but didn't know he called himself "Begging For A Defeat".

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcyFox
    This sounds reasonable.

    But I think the reason why no one knew about him was that he roamed Jianghu with the name "Demonic Swordsman" and called himself "Begging For A Defeat" after he retired from Jianghu.

    He called himself "Begging For A Defeat" probably because he could not find a match and was disappointed with Jianghu.

    So WCY and ZBT might have heard about the Demonic Swordsman but didn't know he called himself "Begging For A Defeat".
    Already mentioned in the article
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member IcyFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Already mentioned in the article
    Slightly different, but the difference is negligible.
    Last edited by IcyFox; 02-23-06 at 02:37 AM.

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    Only if this advertizement occurred before the first Swordsman game.

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    Senior Member IcyFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordwiz
    Only if this advertizement occurred before the first Swordsman game.
    Same result, I guess. This is just a possible biography of some unknown guy's life.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordwiz
    Only if this advertizement occurred before the first Swordsman game.
    I think his early elimination in STRONGEST WARRIORS has to do with his success in the SWORDSMAN game. I mean, the 4 finalists -- Xie Xiaofeng, Dugu, Ding Peng, and Zhang Sanfeng, all went home pretty early in my game. I think that people don't want to see the same contestants thriving every time.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Which really only says that Dugu Qiubai retired before Wang Chongyang built a name for himself. It's doesn't mean that Dugu Qiubai was a better fighter than Wang Chongyang.

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Yes I agree with Dirt. That opinion piece was about the timeline only, and not the ability of DGQB.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Agree. The point I wanted to make was that Dugu Qiubai's claims about his lifetime achievements should be true. It wasn't the case that he was just blabbing. But of course, we never saw him compete with the Greats so we don't know how they would compare.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Moderator kidd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    I think his early elimination in STRONGEST WARRIORS has to do with his success in the SWORDSMAN game. I mean, the 4 finalists -- Xie Xiaofeng, Dugu, Ding Peng, and Zhang Sanfeng, all went home pretty early in my game. I think that people don't want to see the same contestants thriving every time.
    I think the reason is that other popular strong fighters in STRONGEST WARRIORS SURVIVOR are not present in the SWORDSMAN SURVIVOR that allows the others being top 4. People who voted for Dugu in SWORDSMAN SURVIVOR might be Xiao Feng, Duan Yu, Sweeper's fans (or people who think these guys ar strongest), but since they are not there, these voters vote for someone else.
    Like myself. If SPT was in SWORDSMAN SURVIVOR, I certainly won't go and support Zhang Shan Feng or Ding Peng or Ah Fei.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Well, if he was born around 1100. Then by the time he was in his 20s it will be 1120.

    Duan Yu and Xu Zhu would be in their 50s (assuming DGSD is around 1090-95). Still around to thump that young punk if they chose to. I would like to see him try his Xuan Tie Jian on Xu Zhu after XZ had another 30-40 years to refine his Bei Ming Zhen Qi.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humplewumps
    Well, if he was born around 1100. Then by the time he was in his 20s it will be 1120.

    Duan Yu and Xu Zhu would be in their 50s (assuming DGSD is around 1090-95). Still around to thump that young punk if they chose to. I would like to see him try his Xuan Tie Jian on Xu Zhu after XZ had another 30-40 years to refine his Bei Ming Zhen Qi.
    Duan Yu and Xu Zhu most likely retired from the martial world after DGSD. I mean one became an emperor and the other became a prince. They weren't that famous to begin with, so by the time Dugu was roaming the world, their names were probably forgotten. It works out rather nicely I think.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Duan Yu and Xu Zhu most likely retired from the martial world after DGSD. I mean one became an emperor and the other became a prince. They weren't that famous to begin with, so by the time Dugu was roaming the world, their names were probably forgotten. It works out rather nicely I think.
    The point which many DGKB doubters want to get across is that he was undefeated because he didn't have quality opposition.

    If you concede that DY and XZ were around in their 50s-70s (ROCH Greats at 90 still put up a good fight) while DGKB was in his 20s-40s, then you must concede that DGKB just didn't have the 'luck' to meet them. Extrapolating, that means his claim to 'seeking-a-loss' is one purely of him not having the chance to meet the correct opposition rather then the non-existance of such opposition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humplewumps
    The point which many DGKB doubters want to get across is that he was undefeated because he didn't have quality opposition.

    If you concede that DY and XZ were around in their 50s-70s (ROCH Greats at 90 still put up a good fight) while DGKB was in his 20s-40s, then you must concede that DGKB just didn't have the 'luck' to meet them. Extrapolating, that means his claim to 'seeking-a-loss' is one purely of him not having the chance to meet the correct opposition rather then the non-existance of such opposition.
    Really their reputation should have preceded them. It should not have been difficult for DGKB to seek them out.

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    Senior Member MrIllusion's Avatar
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    Personally I think Jin Yong just wanted to use an extremely skilled person as a plot device, but did not want to spend too much time fleshing out such an invincible character.

    One of the classic concepts of wuxia is 'wo hu cang long' (crouching tiger hidden dragon for you), and JY seems to be fond of this concept by making it apply to the likes of powerful characters like Lin Chao Ying, Sweeper Monk etc.

    I really doubt he would introduce a character like DGQB, only to make his skills sub-standard. Besides, do we know that DGQB did not defeat people like Xu Zhu and Duan Yu?

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFT
    Really their reputation should have preceded them. It should not have been difficult for DGKB to seek them out.
    Well, what if Dugu Qiubai invited them to a match, but they kindly declined, due to lack of interest? Maybe Dugu Qiubai respected their decision, and didn't want to be an ******* that keeps troubling people who are not interested.

    Personally I think Jin Yong just wanted to use an extremely skilled person as a plot device, but did not want to spend too much time fleshing out such an invincible character.

    One of the classic concepts of wuxia is 'wo hu cang long' (crouching tiger hidden dragon for you), and JY seems to be fond of this concept by making it apply to the likes of powerful characters like Lin Chao Ying, Sweeper Monk etc.

    I really doubt he would introduce a character like DGQB, only to make his skills sub-standard. Besides, do we know that DGQB did not defeat people like Xu Zhu and Duan Yu?
    My thoughts exactly. I just don't understand why some people want to think that Jin Yong created a bogus sword god who doesn't live up to his claims.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    My thoughts exactly. I just don't understand why some people want to think that Jin Yong created a bogus sword god who doesn't live up to his claims.
    More like a Sword Demon, because Jin Yong did create a Sword God in DGSD, Zhuo Bufan. He was good, but still (in my eyes) far from a Sword God.
    But anyway, Dugu Qiubai is , in my humble opinion, at least as good as the ROCH Greats. I don't have any substantial proof to back this up, of course.

    At least, Dugu Qiubai is still widely regarded as an invincible Sword Demon of the past. The old sweeper monk is the mysterious number one martial arts expert in DGSD (and some feel even the entire Jin Yong universe).

    To be honest, there is another underdog in Jin Yong's universe who should get a bit more attention. And that is Wang Chongyang. A large group of the readers think that Wang Chongyang is just an old Taoist priest who got lucky during the First Huashan Tournament and just won by a bit. Some even claim that Lin Chaoying prior to her death is even more powerful than the Wang Chongyang prior to his death.
    That is why some readers/fans (including me) are starting to fight for him. I fight for him here, while some others defend him on some Chinese forums. We try to present the people another possibility, (in my opinion) a more likely possiblity about the prowess of Central Divinity.
    Last edited by Athena; 02-26-06 at 01:35 PM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena
    To be honest, there is another underdog. And that is Wang Chongyang. A large group of the readers think that Wang Chongyang is just an old Taoist priest who got lucky during the First Huashan Tournament and just won by a bit. Some even claim that Lin Chaoying prior to her death is even more powerful than the Wang Chongyang prior to his death.
    That is why some readers/fans (including me) are starting to fight for him. I fight for him here, while some other defend him on some Chinese forums. We try to present the people another possibility, (in my opinion) a more likely possiblity about the prowess of Central Divinity.
    Thank you. Thank you. And, thank you.

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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Frankly, I have no problems seeing Central Divinity and Sword Demon as being equals. You have Wang Chongyang in the middle representing the Divine, then you have East, West, South and North representing the world/earth, the things that walk amongst us. Finally, you have the Dugu Qiubai representing the Demonic. The will of Heaven (the Divine) can be known, if we follow the right way. We of course know the things that exist in the world here on Earth. The dark things, the demonic, can never be known to us, it exists in us all and we can even follow it's ways but we can still never know what it is or if it is real.

    I think Wang Chongyang and Dugu Qiubai were equals. But they lived in completely different worlds (one Divine, the other Demonic) that did not, could not coincide.

    So far as their martial arts, Wang Chongyang's required years and years of dedicated practice. Whereas Dugu Qiubai's martial arts was like magic. You learn 9 moves and only months later you're going up against people who's martial arts should be light years ahead of yours. In fact 'Demon' is Muo in Chinese which is one of 2 words that make up the Chinese word for 'Magic'.
    Last edited by Dirt; 02-23-06 at 07:22 PM.

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