Grand Unified Theory Of Wuxia Fiction

[Yeung Gor]

Er, that's just the prelininary result. Might be adjusted later on but I don't think there will be any changes to YG's and XF's relative ranking, though.

I hope you are prepare to face the heat from the XF'antanics when they wake up from their slumbers. Haha

[IcyFox]

I hope you are prepare to face the heat from the XF'antanics when they wake up from their slumbers. Haha

I'll just tell them to look at my theories, my equation, my program source code and my parameters for the computation of the ranking. That should deter many people from arguing.

[Yeung Gor]

I'll just tell them to look at my theories, my equation, my program source code and my parameters for the computation of the ranking. That should deter many people from arguing.

Ultimately that is what I like about your work. It has a sound backing base on a logical theory, science and math. It could end all the arguements once and for all. But of course we are still human govern by emotions and so logic will have no place when feelings run wild.

By the way, you mentioned that sadness can affect a person's will to fight but yet can also help them if they convert it to hatred. Do you think YG would be fighting with hatred? I theorize it differently. I believe YG's source of power from sadness is more from love rather than hatred. Like you mentioned. Love is one of the most powerful source one can draw upon and I believe that is the secret to Sad Palms. His love for XLN is the core of his sadness therefore, he is drawing upon that love as his power not the hatred. That is why YG's Sad Palm is so powerful, not just that it is rooted in love but it has to also overcome the weakening state of sadness.

[s4life]

Icyfox, Thanks for posting this... it's very informative at the least.
The system though, relies too much in parameters which ultimately one has to pick out of subjective estimates. I more robust approach would be to let the model compute the weight of these parameters out of factual data (everything that could be drawn from the books, and only that), then introduce some 'noise', an a-priory estimate for each parameter and use an exponential model for the probability distribution. This obviously is not easy, as it could be a good Ph.D thesis that can be used in game simulations.

In any case it was a fun read and I hope you keep improving it.

Cheers,

[IcyFox]

By the way, you mentioned that sadness can affect a person's will to fight but yet can also help them if they convert it to hatred. Do you think YG would be fighting with hatred? I theorize it differently. I believe YG's source of power from sadness is more from love rather than hatred. Like you mentioned. Love is one of the most powerful source one can draw upon and I believe that is the secret to Sad Palms. His love for XLN is the core of his sadness therefore, he is drawing upon that love as his power not the hatred. That is why YG's Sad Palm is so powerful, not just that it is rooted in love but it has to also overcome the weakening state of sadness.

Converting sadness to hatred only exists in Star Wars, I think. Yes I agree that YG depended more on love than on sadness. So I put his Phi. Level at Level 4. In comparison, XF's Phi. Level is 3.

[IcyFox]

Icyfox, Thanks for posting this... it's very informative at the least.
The system though, relies too much in parameters which ultimately one has to pick out of subjective estimates. I more robust approach would be to let the model compute the weight of these parameters out of factual data (everything that could be drawn from the books, and only that), then introduce some 'noise', an a-priory estimate for each parameter and use an exponential model for the probability distribution. This obviously is not easy, as it could be a good Ph.D thesis that can be used in game simulations.

Yes, I agree that the parameters should be decided based on evidence (and only that) in the book. My preliminary results on the previous pages are just my rough estimates.

Introduce 'noise'? Probability distribution? LOL! My ability in mathematics is not at that level yet, unfortunately. Maybe I can do that in a few months' time, maybe a few years.

Unless you lend a hand, of course. Maybe we could try tensor statistics, hmm?

[kidd]

Your program is very subjective. U put in all the parameters yourself. So, if u have high estimation of a character, u give him/her high values for all the parameters. Then of course, he/she will win all the fights.

[dragon2005]

Your program is very subjective. U put in all the parameters yourself. So, if u have high estimation of a character, u give him/her high values for all the parameters. Then of course, he/she will win all the fights.

Yeah, I think that may be the flaw to why some results don't pan out very well. Can't see how YG going to defeat XF. Maybe there should be a parameter called fighting spirit.

[IcyFox]

Your program is very subjective. U put in all the parameters yourself. So, if u have high estimation of a character, u give him/her high values for all the parameters. Then of course, he/she will win all the fights.

My parameters are just rough estimations. To make them more accurate we would have to use parameters based on evidence found only in the book. If there is any dispute with the parameters we could always poll the readers.

More on this later.

Yeah, I think that may be the flaw to why some results don't pan out very well. Can't see how YG going to defeat XF. Maybe there should be a parameter called fighting spirit.

I would classify fighting spirit as level 1 or 2 in Philosophy.

[Extremer88]

So, is Ken gonna make this thread sticky?

[IcyFox]

So, is Ken gonna make this thread sticky?

Erm, I don't know. You may want to send him a PM to ask.

[Extremer88]

How about the 3 wind-cloud Persian ambassadors in HSDS. How would they rank?

[Humplewumps]

Converting sadness to hatred only exists in Star Wars, I think. Yes I agree that YG depended more on love than on sadness. So I put his Phi. Level at Level 4. In comparison, XF's Phi. Level is 3.

XF had reached the level of self-sacrifice. His life for the hope of world peace. You put that at lvl 3 while personal love is Lvl 4?

BTW, why don't you try Sweeper Monk vs MRB and XYS? That should give it a nice validity test.

[IcyFox]

How about the 3 wind-cloud Persian ambassadors in HSDS. How would they rank?

BTW, why don't you try Sweeper Monk vs MRB and XYS? That should give it a nice validity test.

Parameters please. I don't know enough to rank them accurately.

XF had reached the level of self-sacrifice. His life for the hope of world peace. You put that at lvl 3 while personal love is Lvl 4?

Not just that. He even caught a glimpse of the Ultimate Level (Peace) in the moment just before his death. However, he didn't master anything higher than Level 3 in terms of martial arts. The same applies to WCY to a certain extent too.

[yittz]

To make this work, we need unified parameters for each character - just like YG vs GJ debates, it's going to be difficult to find parameters a great majority agrees on.

Regarding draws it looks like most fights you mentioned (greats, sweeper/DGQB/Z3F) will end in draws (highest prob, much >>> than Pwin and Plose).

I definitely see the advantages of keeping the equation simple, so more users can understand why they are getting the results and allow transparency.

Before you can sort out your equation so XF>>YG (a fact ), I will have to resort to using Googlefight to determine who's better.

[IcyFox]

To make this work, we need unified parameters for each character - just like YG vs GJ debates, it's going to be difficult to find parameters a great majority agrees on.

Regarding draws it looks like most fights you mentioned (greats, sweeper/DGQB/Z3F) will end in draws (highest prob, much >>> than Pwin and Plose).

For getting 'unified' parameters, just conduct a poll. Let the majority decide.
If anyone disagrees with the poll results then he/she'll probably have to write a paper.

For the draws part, I'll adjust the constants to make it more balanced.

[IcyFox]

OK, there have been some minor upheaval caused by the results I released. So I'll now explain what this thread is about.

There are 2 stages to making this a good and useful Grand Unified Theory of Wuxia fiction.

Stage 1 - Debate on the theories.
Stage 2 - Debate on the equation / companion program.

We are currently at stage 1. After the theories are fully debated and the revisions accepted, we can proceed to stage 2, where we will try to improve the equation and the program to increase the accuracy of the probabilities computed.

The scores and rankings calculated currently are just my rough estimations. They are subject to change. Ideally we should decide on parameters based on evidence solely from the book. If we cannot agree to the parameters, we can conduct a poll to get the majority's opinion. If anyone wishes to lodge an appeal after the poll, he or she is advised to write a paper proving his/her stand.

For now I will not dispute any parameters submitted to me for calculations. I will just compute them accordingly and release the results. I'm only doing that to let the Wuxia fans here know what the program is capable of.

Thank you.

[Yeung Gor]

Regarding parameters, one must back their parameters with full facts from the novel, not just personal judgement. I dont agree with voting parameters with a poll as it is more bias as there are many posters who do not care about facts but their own preference. So any parameters that is offer must be fully explained why it is so and then a debate can carry on... this way it is easy to tell who is being objective and bias. All the values assign must meet the requirements set by the theories.

[IcyFox]

Regarding parameters, one must back their parameters with full facts from the novel, not just personal judgement. I dont agree with voting parameters with a poll as it is more bias as there are many posters who do not care about facts but their own preference. So any parameters that is offer must be fully explained why it is so and then a debate can carry on... this way it is easy to tell who is being objective and bias. All the values assign must meet the requirements set by the theories.

Then probably we could decide on the parameters based on facts in the novel first. If there are any disputes then we can conduct a poll like "Yang Guo - Should his Styles level be 5 or 6?" to settle the issue.

[IcyFox]

OK, now let me try to answer some of the previously un-answered questions.


Speed / Techniques

The Uncertainty Principle in speed occurs only at extremely high speeds, where the exponent loses control of his accuracy due to the 'turbulence' caused at such high speeds. Such speeds do not usually occur in Wuxia fiction. The minimum speed for this to happen should be slightly faster than the near-superhuman speed of Star Wars Jedi.

Speed does not automatically grant accuracy, however. An exponent must manually train his accuracy to make full use of his speed. Training his accuracy comes under techniques or styles while training his speed can come under either techniques or internal strength/energy.

Anyway speed is not everything, as I said in the treatise. Good techniques or a large quanta of internal energy can easily force a speed-based exponent to slow down. An exponent must be able to use speed (with accuracy), techniques and internal strength well to be considered a good martial artist.


Dugu 9 Swords

My idea of the Dugu 9 Swords is about the same as Laviathan's.
See this link for details (login required):
http://www.wuxiapedia.com/research/m...osophy_of_dgqb

Any further questions regarding the Dugu 9 Swords will be answered in this thread.