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Thread: was Jin Yong out of his mind?

  1. #1
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Default was Jin Yong out of his mind?

    Jin Yong sure explored a change of philosophy between 2 novels.

    in ROCH, he wrote: 杨过但觉越是平平无奇的剑招,对方越难抗御。比如挺剑直刺,只要劲力强 猛,威力远比玉女剑法等变幻奇妙的剑招更大。

    The more ordinary the sword stances, the more effective against the opponent. Any ordinary stab backed by abundant internal energy will yield much more power than the dazzling stances of arts such as the Jade Maiden Sword Art.

    And in Smiling Proud Wanderer: 但不论敌手的内力如何深厚,到了“独孤九剑”精微的剑法之下,尽数落空

    Yet regardless of the opponent's abundant internal energy, it would be useless when facing the fancy sword stances of Dugu Nine Swords.

    Those 2 arts by the same guy Dugu Qiubai are totally at odds with each other.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Member Humplewumps's Avatar
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    To make sense of it. One has to put them in context of the situation, the actual skill level and the fighter/s involved when JY quoted those lines.

    Put it as. Internal energy level X+1 overcomes technique level X.

    Technique Level X+2 overcomes Internal energy level X+1.

    And so on.

    Just like how extreme Yin becomes Yang and vice versa. There is no invincibility. There will always be a taller mountain.

    Maybe thats why 6MSJ is so deadly. It combines dazzling techniques with massive internal energy. Plus you can't see the damn thing!
    Last edited by Humplewumps; 03-15-06 at 11:43 AM.

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    The reason why 6MSJ is so deadly is because you can kill your opponents from 10 meters away. I don't think any sword style has provisions for how to fight a guy with an invisible omni-edged sword that is 10 meters long and where the guy moves the sword around by twitching his fingers 3 cm and where there are 6 different such swords with different properties and the guy using the swords probably has 3x your inner power.

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    Senior Member KJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Jin Yong sure explored a change of philosophy between 2 novels.

    in ROCH, he wrote: 杨过但觉越是平平无奇的剑招,对方越难抗御。比如挺剑直刺,只要劲力强 猛,威力远比玉女剑法等变幻奇妙的剑招更大。

    The more ordinary the sword stances, the more effective against the opponent. Any ordinary stab backed by abundant internal energy will yield much more power than the dazzling stances of arts such as the Jade Maiden Sword Art.

    And in Smiling Proud Wanderer: 但不论敌手的内力如何深厚,到了“独孤九剑”精微的剑法之下,尽数落空

    Yet regardless of the opponent's abundant internal energy, it would be useless when facing the fancy sword stances of Dugu Nine Swords.

    Those 2 arts by the same guy Dugu Qiubai are totally at odds with each other.
    Well, DGQB went through 4 stages in his swordsmanship. It's not that surprising that his theories would change. Now, which stage is later or better is up to the reader's interpretation. It is the popular belief that DG9J was his first stage using the flexible sword, while the next stage would be the Heavy Iron Sword stage, followed by the wooden sword stage, then finally the no sword stage. If you follow this belief, then the DG9J stage will be overcome by the Heavy Iron Sword stage.

  5. #5
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KJ
    Well, DGQB went through 4 stages in his swordsmanship. It's not that surprising that his theories would change. Now, which stage is later or better is up to the reader's interpretation. It is the popular belief that DG9J was his first stage using the flexible sword, while the next stage would be the Heavy Iron Sword stage, followed by the wooden sword stage, then finally the no sword stage. If you follow this belief, then the DG9J stage will be overcome by the Heavy Iron Sword stage.
    Actually, I think that some experts see Dugu 9 Swords as created after the Heavy Iron Sword, but as a basic training set--like a crashcourse--to get the beginning practioner up to speed.

    Perhaps Dugu 9 Swords and Heavy Iron Sword were meant to be trained one after another. I still believe that DG9J should be learned first, as the requirement for learning it is less. If that is the case, then the practioner would first learn to overcome internal energy with superior technique, then learn to overcome technique with superior internal energy. After training both, the practioner 1) would see that neither way is sufficient, as it can possibly be countered by the other way. In order to attain higher mastery, more advanced training is necessary; 2) would already have sufficient internal energy and understanding of technique to train for the wooden sword, and eventually formless/techniqueless sword energy.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Member Humplewumps's Avatar
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    Just because DGKB took that path - techniques - Iron Sword - No sword , doesn't mean everybody who learn DG9J needs to follow it.

    Everybody finds his own way. Like how FCY said, if you wnt to say DG9J is this or that, then let the name DG9J be forgotten.

    I am of the camp that says DG9J is neither before or after Iron sword.

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    Senior Member MrIllusion's Avatar
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    I think something that's also important is 'who says what'. Usually, JY makes these comments come from someone's perspective so we have to that that into consideration as well.

    Now, I havent read XAJH, so I'm mostly guessing. But I believe even with Dugu 9Jian and other helpers, Linghu Chong had problem with Dongfang Bubai. So it's possible that the comment was made deliberately to exaggerate Dongfang Bubai's powers when he shows off his prowess later.

    In a way, I don't see it as a canonical comment about which is better, but rather as a literary tool that JY uses to complement his writing style.
    The Truth is out there
    I say we leave it there...

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humplewumps
    Just because DGKB took that path - techniques - Iron Sword - No sword , doesn't mean everybody who learn DG9J needs to follow it.
    Agree. I'm just saying that logically speaking, I think Dugu 9 Swords should be trained before Iron Sword.

    I am of the camp that says DG9J is neither before or after Iron sword.
    Yes, but for the completist who wishes to unify Dugu Qiubai's theories, we try to place Dugu 9 Swords where it makes the most sense in Sword Demon's martial arts progression, although it is very controversial.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    I think JY never thought of the DGQB mentioned in ROCH when he wrote XAJH, while he never thought of the DGQB mentined in XAJH, when he revise LOCH.

    There's no mentioned of Dugu 9 Jian in ROCH when Yang Guo happens to find his tomb, so we can assumed Dugu 9 Jian was already pass on to other people, before he go on and become a hermit?
    ..ext88

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    The more ordinary the sword stances, the more effective against the opponent. Any ordinary stab backed by abundant internal energy will yield much more power than the dazzling stances of arts such as the Jade Maiden Sword Art.

    Yet regardless of the opponent's abundant internal energy, it would be useless when facing the fancy sword stances of Dugu Nine Swords.
    the first part means that as long as one is attacking directly with great force, the move cannot be avoided. while fancy moves would have flaws. the straight line lighting sword used dazzling moves but with a simple and direct move, LHC defeated him.
    The sword art he used was named the “Straight Line Lightning Sword Art,” and
    every time when a move in the sword art form was executed, it looked as though a lightning had just shot across the sky. The dazzling effect was so dramatic that it would have easily stunned the opponent and put fear in his heart
    (words of ren woxing)His sword moves are flash and without substance. He doesn’t have any true skills, and all he does is to try to scare people with his sword flashes. You don’t have to use any move sparring him. Just place your blade there and he’ll send his fingers, wrists, or arms onto your blade and have them cut off, himself,” the man said.
    but even if an swordsman has a huge inner power advantage over his opponent, his sword must strike the opponent to win. inner power makes the sword move faster and more powerful. but if the (inner power) weaker swordsman is better in sword moves and hits a strike while avoiding his opponent, he can win.
    But no matter how resourceful the opponent’s inner strength was, when those moves met the profound and subtle sword techniques of the “Dugu Nine Swords,” they all came to nothing. Only that the man’s outstanding prowess in inner strength and his superb ingeniousness in sword techniques had become simply inseparable from each other. Several times the man had already forced Linghu Chong into extremities, where Linghu Chong should have had no choice but to throw down his sword and submit, but Linghu Chong would always be able to suddenly come up with some bizarre moves, which not only rescue himself out of the dead-end position, but also enable him to use the opportunity to launch his counterblow. The brilliance of these moves was simply unimaginably queer
    . LHC attacked the weak spot of RWX inner power strikes so that even through the move is powerful, it never is finished or lands on LHC.
    this part is from sword of the third master.
    A gentle breeze swept by, a breeze that suddenly turned freezing cold. Her body and sword began to move. She moved very slowly, very beautifully. Her movements were as natural as a gentle breeze. But who can dodge a gentle breeze and who can tell from where it blows? Yan ShiSan felt his body grow tense. Her sword strike was very slow, striking from an unfathomable place. When the strike occurred, suddenly it changed. It changed in an unfathomable way. But during this change, there really was a weak point. When a tornado sweeps the plain, isn’t it logical that there may be some places where it doesn’t touch? But when a tornado sweeps the plains, who can pay attention to these spots? Yan ShiSan suddenly realised that his hands were damp with sweat.
    no matter how powerful one's sword strike is, it isn't devoid of weakness through only at a high level can the weakness be exploited. only when one has reached the level of inner power and moves as one, of martial arts imbued into ones self, will they reach the same level as DGQB.
    The tall firm maple trees around them instantly split in half upon touching their swords. Because these trees simply didn't exist in their eyes. The thick dense forest around them was nothing but a level plain in their eyes. Wherever their swords wanted to go, their swords went.
    There was no longer anything in the world that could obstruct their blades.
    Tree after tree toppled over in the forest, the sky rained blood in a riotous profusion. An awkward and heavy change suddenly emanated from the neverending flashes of light.
    what appears ordinary and direct is no different from what is fancy and complicated.
    Xie WangSun slowly bent down and placed the leaf on the ground. Yan ShiSan continued to look at him, his eyes filled with admiration and respect. At this point, he realised that this person was highly skilled at hiding their ability. His martial arts had reached a godly stage, a stage where it had fused with his natural way of being. Because of this, no one had recognised this ability!
    When the frost came, no one can see its power. Its invisible ability to freeze lakes and kill people.
    “I am but an ordinary person…”
    In this world, how many can achieve that level of ‘ordinary’?
    this is DGQB's ultimate level as described. ultimate level of inner power and moves combined till both are indistinguisable from the other.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

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    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    So, powerful GL swordsmen like Xie Xiaofeng, Yan Shisan, Ximen Chuixue and Ye Gucheng, did they reach the level of what DGQB has achieved or performed?
    ..ext88

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    I rather think that Jin Yong's description of DG9J is sometimes contradictory. Despite claiming to be a complex sword art, it can be distilled into a very straightforward one. It's possible that the theory and the 9+main Indices are complex but I view them as training aids. When the theory is understood it boils down to:

    1. Attack is the best form of defense
    2. Target your enemies weak points
    3. Do this extremely quickly

    DG9J doesn't use dazzling techniques to distract the opponent like the Straight Lightning sword or the Jade Maiden sword. There seems to be (overly) complex strategies to get into the right place for attack.

    Didn't FQY tell LHC that eventually one could just forget it all the Indices and just use whatever attack was natural and appropriate? Being "alive" and adaptable was what the best sword art was about.

    My take is that ideally a balance of internal power and technique is required.

  13. #13
    Senior Member IcyFox's Avatar
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    This topic has been explained (to a certain extent) in another thread.

    See the link in my signature for details.

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