do u think its right?

[Linda]

do u think its right for hero's to gang up on bad guys, trick them and use underhanded methods?

when ever i watch or read a wuxia novel or film, it always bugs me that when a so called 'hero' does something underhanded they are praised for being smart, while if someone considered evil uses the same trick, its called dirty. y is that?

also, this bugges me the most, if an evil guy kills some good guys friend, he is allowed to kill the evil guy for revenge, yet if the good guy kills and evil guy, his family and friends can not take revenge because the guy was doing something good for humanity. even if they accidently kill a good person, ur still not allowed to kill them because they are good people and it was an accident. if's its not murder then its still manslaughter, i don't see why just because they are the good guys they don't have to pay for their sins.

perfect example, in ROCH, the ugly old woman in the Tomb was killed by the taoist, yet he refused to pay back for her life and everyone in his sect said the same thing. even Guo Jing afterwards told YG to let go, before he even knew the whole story because those Taoist were his masters and he considered them as good people.

the old woman wasn't a bad person, did she deserve to be killed like that? and all that was repaid was a 'sorry' and 'it was an accident'. yet if xln and yg had gone to the sect to kill the taoist, they would be considered evil because they were going to kill a good guy? even Guo Jing would have fought agaisn't them.

[Swordwiz]

Well, he did offer to suicide to pay for his crime, however, he was stopped because it was an accident. I think that in this case, the Taoist should be able to continue living, because he was a good man, and he has done many good things for the society. He killed lady Sun by accident, and he regrets it, so he deserves redemption.

[danshu_]

Well.. hypocrisy among the so-called "righteous clans" is a major theme in many JY novels, so I guess he realizes the same things you do

[kidd]

It's the grandma's fault that she died. She's the one who go caused trouble in Chuan Zhen Sect. The Taoist was just acting on self defense.

Let's say if some unreasonable guy came an attack u and u accidentally killed him in self-defense. Should u then be given the death penalty for killing someone in self-defense?

[Linda]

how is it her fault?

she came to give them the antidote but they wouldn't believe her, so she let YG drink it then took YG away, they refuse to let her go, telling her to give them another antidote and leave YG behind. she said she only had that one bottle and refuse to leave YG so they attacked her.

i don't see how its her fault.

in this case its not some one unreasonable who attacted u.

if a guy come to pay back money to someone and they say its fake money and wouldnt accept it, wat would u do? beg them to believe u?

i don't see why after the way she was treated (very unjust in my opinion) she should run back get them another bottle and leave YG behind.

[Ken Cheng]

how is it her fault?

she came to give them the antidote but they wouldn't believe her, so she let YG drink it then took YG away, they refuse to let her go, telling her to give them another antidote and leave YG behind. she said she only had that one bottle and refuse to leave YG so they attacked her.

i don't see how its her fault.

The fatal blow came after she attempted a rather murderous, but unsuccessful attack on Gok Dai Tung, if I remember correctly.

[Candide]

The fatal blow came after she attempted a rather murderous, but unsuccessful attack on Gok Dai Tung, if I remember correctly.

You are right on that, Ken. Granny Sun tried a sneak attack on him, he countered with his palm but as it was sudden, he couldn't control the power and she was crushed (HA HA).

Did TVB bullshit shows get that scene right or did they omit it totally to make the Quanzhen guy look like a murderer? I'm surprised (well not really) that no Quanzhen hater knows that.

[Siven]

The end justifies the means. When bad guys act sneaky they're usually trying to gain something for themselves, whereas supposedly the good guys only engage in subterfuge to thrawt the bad guys to preserve the general good.

[Anais]

If I remember correctly, although Granny Sun tried to kick his abdomen (unsuccessfully), it wasn't mentioned that the kick was supposed to be fatal or murderous. While Hao Datong's defence palm (or counter-attack) was fatal, though unintentionally so.

Anyway, the poor woman's demise was as much her own fault as it was those Taoists'. Everybody involved was absurdly proud and over-reacted. And Yang Guo probably embellished his grievances when he was reciting his story in the tomb, thus colouring her opinion of those Quanzhen Taoists.

Nonetheless, I'm with Linda in that my sympathies lie with Granny Sun in this matter, because:

1) Instead of apologizing for wrongly doubting her good intentions, Zhang Zhiguang laughed his ingratitude off as a joke. And he only had revenge on his mind just because she slapped him (from Wuxiapedia: 'Zhan Zhi Guang had just been slapped painfully by Grandma Sun, he wasn’t going to let her off lightly.')

2) Those Taoists used numbers to gain an unfair advantage, not once but several times. All she wanted was to leave with Yang Guo, but they kept ganging up on her and attacking her using some storming tactic. Just like she said, 'Over ten young and athletic men teamed up together to bully an old woman and a child. Ha-ha, so powerful, so powerful!' (again, from Wuxiapedia.)

3) Most importantly, Hao Datong's total lack of apology. An apology wouldn't have helped Granny Sun come back to life, nor would it redeem him of his deed. Yet not saying sorry just made him and the matter worse. Hao Datong felt remorse, but he didn't feel strongly enough to do something about it, apart from saying, 'This sin that has come upon me is ruled by your fate'. Kill her and then put the blame on her fate as well. Yeah, nice.

[Ken Cheng]

1) Instead of apologizing for wrongly doubting her good intentions, Zhang Zhiguang laughed his ingratitude off as a joke. And he only had revenge on his mind just because she slapped him (from Wuxiapedia: 'Zhan Zhi Guang had just been slapped painfully by Grandma Sun, he wasn’t going to let her off lightly.')

Granny Sheun's actual intent might not have been hostile, but you would have never guessed it by her demeanor. The way she barged into the Chung Yeung Temple in the middle of the night with Yeung Gor did not exactly send peaceful vibes towards the Taoists. If she'd really wanted to avoid a fight, she should have tried the front door in the daytime, and maybe demonstrated a friendlier manner.

Moreover, it's hard to fault the Cheun Jen Sect Taoists for being a bit on edge about Ancient Tomb Sect members. It had been only a few months since Lee Mok Sau spread that false rumor about Little Dragon Girl's "wedding contest" that attracted Fok Do, Dat Yee Ba, and those bandits to the Chung Yeung Temple. The Cheun Jen Sect Taoists didn't know anything about the Ancient Tomb Sect's then-current internal politics: they couldn't have known that Lee Mok Sau was at odds with Little Dragon Girl, or who was a black hat and who was a white hat from the Ancient Tomb. It was only natural that the Taoists assumed the worst when visited by yet another Ancient Tomb Sect member, especially one that was openly exhibiting a belligerent attitude and was harboring a fugitive Yeung Gor.

2) Those Taoists used numbers to gain an unfair advantage, not once but several times. All she wanted was to leave with Yang Guo, but they kept ganging up on her and attacking her using some storming tactic. Just like she said, 'Over ten young and athletic men teamed up together to bully an old woman and a child. Ha-ha, so powerful, so powerful!' (again, from Wuxiapedia.)

Could they afford to take chances? Again, it had only been a few months earlier that Cheun Jen Taoists had taken quite a beating at the hands of Fok Do, Dat Yee Ba, that duo's cronies, and ironically, the Cheun Jen Sect's own ally Gwok Jing. Hair trigger security measures after that debacle were predictable.

3) Most importantly, Hao Datong's total lack of apology. An apology wouldn't have helped Granny Sun come back to life, nor would it redeem him of his deed. Yet not saying sorry just made him and the matter worse. Hao Datong felt remorse, but he didn't feel strongly enough to do something about it, apart from saying, 'This sin that has come upon me is ruled by your fate'. Kill her and then put the blame on her fate as well. Yeah, nice.

What did he really have to apologize for? She basically challenged him to a fight (and that's being charitable; it looked like attempted murder to me) and lost, forfeiting her life in the bargain. That's the reality of life in wulin. It's not as if Gok Dai Tung stabbed her in the back when she wasn't looking. He was just a more powerful fighter than she was and she'd bitten off more than she could chew.

[Athena]

I agree with Ken.
Hao Datong did apologize more or less. He did feel remorse about it and wanted to pay with his own life many year later.

The entire Quanzhen school was a bit annoyed by Granny Sun's behaviour. Not talking about the moments where she stormed into the Quanzhen headquarters.
But before when Zhen Zhibing (formerly Yin Zhiping) went near the Ancient Tomb to reclaim Yang Guo, granny Sun started to insult almost everyone.
She even said:"There is not a single decent person in your sect and that includes your founder!"
Hello?!? If I were a Quanzhen disciple, I would be upset too. And the amazing part was that the Quanzhen disciples only frowned and thought:"Well, that was uncalled for."
I thought that the Quanzhen disciples were quite disciplined, given any other school's disciples. They would have cursed her and attacked (i.e. Kunlun, 5 Sacred Mountain Sword Schools).
Even the Heroes of Wudang would get angry when people spoke mockingly of Zhang Sanfeng, I think it is safe to say that the Heroes of Wudang are one of the most good-natured characters around. Song Yuanqiao was annoyed by the attitude of those three armed guard agency directors, that he taught them a lesson for mocking Zhang Sanfeng.

It is sad that granny Sun was killed, but more or less she was asking for it.

[Candide]

Talk about a lack of apology. The whole wedding contest thing, started by an Ancient Tomb disciple (or former disciple, but nobody knew that apart from the Ancient Tomb people), got Quanzhen HQ burnt down to the ground and the masters were humiliated. QZ did not get one apology or explanation from the Ancient Tomb people. XLN only said this to QCJ at the end "My apprentice sister will pay for her mischiefs." This is after many QZ disciples died or were seriously injured and Chongyang palace was still in flame.

I agree with Athena that the QZ disciples were very disciplined. Even the Wudang heroes weren't that calm when ZSF was insulted. ZCS essentially went for a dead or alive fight against Xie Xun when XX insulted ZSF.

[Anais]

I agree that Granny Sun was not entirely free of blame in the incident. In fact, her demise was as much her own fault as it was those Taoists'. Even the young Yang Guo played a part.

However, for all her faults, she was only an ignorant woman who lived in a tomb, cut away from the world save for her two mistresses. While those Taoists hailed from a respectable sect, and were supposed to be well-versed with Taoism and the philosophies and teachings associated with it.

Zhang Zhiguang was awful and it irked me that they ganged up on her. It was so in the forest and it was so in the temple. Above all, she died while Hao Datong didn't do much to make reparations for his actions beyond that remark about her fate. Like Yang Guo said, if he truly wanted to make amends, he should have approached him in private instead of in the presence of his fellow sect members and Guo Jing and Huang Rong (before the meeting to appoint a wulin chancellor).

I know he was bugged by remorse for years, and it's not that I think he should die for it or take any such silly actions. However, I wish he did more to atone for his deed.

[Ken Cheng]

However, for all her faults, she was only an ignorant woman who lived in a tomb, cut away from the world save for her two mistresses...it irked me that they ganged up on her.

We know that, but the Cheun Jen Sect Taoists didn't. Don't forget: the third and fourth generation Cheun Jen Sect Taoists were not very powerful martial artists. Those two generations didn't produce anybody as powerful as Gok Dai Tung (let alone Yau Chui Gei or Ma Yuk). Their strength was in their formations, which needed a certain number of members to be executed. They were dealing with an unknown and hostile individual whose martial arts were unknown to them and probably more powerful than theirs (in the case of Granny Sheun, it wasn't, but the Taoists didn't know that). We can't fault them for being cautious, can we? Besides, the Taoists' posture in their confrontation with Granny Sheun was decidedly defensive. They weren't trying to murder an old lady; they were protecting themselves from a belligerent stranger.

And if there's one really annoying common trait among the Ancient Tomb Sect members from founder Lam Chiu Ying down to Yeung Gor, it's that most of them have an awful tendency to overgeneralize and project based on one or two bad examples. Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung didn't share Lam Chiu Ying's romantic dreams, so NATURALLY all men must be evil. *Two* Cheun Jen Sect Taoists (Chiu Tze Ging and that abusive janitorial Taoist) had been sadistic jerks to Yeung Gor, so the entire Cheun Jen Sect MUST be evil. Granny Sheun had trouble with one particular Cheun Jen Sect Taoist and thus, the entire sect from Wong Chung Yeung down HAD TO BE evil.

It's hard to have much sympathy for people who come in with such hostile and extremist prejudices.

[Anais]

They were dealing with an unknown and hostile individual whose martial arts were unknown to them and probably more powerful than theirs (in the case of Granny Sheun, it wasn't, but the Taoists didn't know that). We can't fault them for being cautious, can we?

Yea, I agree we can't.

Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung didn't share Lam Chiu Ying's romantic dreams, so NATURALLY all men must be evil. *Two* Cheun Jen Sect Taoists (Chiu Tze Ging and that abusive janitorial Taoist) had been sadistic jerks to Yeung Gor, so the entire Cheun Jen Sect MUST be evil. Granny Sheun had trouble with one particular Cheun Jen Sect Taoist and thus, the entire sect from Wong Chung Yeung down HAD TO BE evil.

Agree. Though in the case of Granny Sun, I'm not sure if she actually thought so, or if she simply wanted to be rude to Yin Zhiping and gang (with her remark about all Quanzhen members being jerks). Either way, it didn't reflect well on her.

It's sad that the incident resulted in a loss of life. If both sides have shown some restraint or even just plain courtesy, or if Xiao Longni has acted sooner (she was following them and witnessed everything, and I've always wondered why, with her remarkable speed, she couldn't have done something to get Granny Sun out of the way of Hao Datong's blow), or if Qiu Chuji has arrived sooner, the tragedy might have been prevented.

[MrIllusion]

I agree with Ken.
Hao Datong did apologize more or less. He did feel remorse about it and wanted to pay with his own life many year later.

That seems to be one of JY's most powerful skill

He gives us this preconceived notion of a character, then at will, creates a scene that makes us change our perception completely.

Happened with people like Ouyang Feng, Li Mochou etc

As for Quanzhen, I thought JY was trying to paint them in a negative light intentionally by putting in some 'bad eggs' among them, such as

1) Zhen Zhibing - taoist cultivation was too low for a successor. For someone who has taken the vow of celibacy he has no excuse for his actions.
2) Zhao Zhijing - the obvious 'bad guy'. Cunning, devious, petty and guilty of conspiring with Mongolians. It's probably because of him that most readers will dislike Quanzhen.
3) Sun Bu'er - Petty and narrow-minded. Was offended because YG ignored her when she offered him her sword.
4) Quanzhen elders attacking XLN after she fought with the Mongolian experts.


In LOCH, the big sect with problems was Beggar Sect. In ROCH, JY probably needed something fresh. Quanzhen seems to be the obvious choice since Shaolin was detached from ROCH's main storyline.

[Candide]

3) Sun Bu'er - Petty and narrow-minded. Was offended because YG ignored her when she offered him her sword.

If anything, that sort of rudeness makes Yang Guo look like a disrespectful wanker.

[Athena]

I think Hao Datong showed a lot of restraint. He had her cornered and could have killed her, but instead he said politely:"We've been neighbours for so many years, is it really necessary to become enemies over a child."
Granny Sun shouted why she came, Hao Datong turned around to ask a disciple what was going on. She kicked and the only defence for Hao Datong was to push out.

Hao Datong was not being hypocritical when he offered his life to Yang Guo. He was genuine in that offer, but Yang Guo being a very extreme child mocked him. What does he take Hao Datong for? Some sort of Yuanzhen or Yue Buqun. Any other wulin dignitary would have been furious, but he left without saying anything.
How could he make amends? It was an accident, in fact he should not feel any remorse. It was self-defence. Did Zhang Sanfeng feel remorse when he killed Gangxiang? Was it necessary to feel remorse about that?
It is practically the same thing, you want to injure me. The only defence I have at that time is to take you out.
The entire Quanzhen has been showing a lot of restraint towards the Ancient Tomb.

Jin Yong only created a few rotten apples in Quanzhen. The majority of Quanzhen was good. The readers are given a choice: Do you want to view Quanzhen via the eyes of Yang Guo? Or view them as what they are in the novel.
Because in the novel, it was said that all of the Quanzhen third generation disciples were yelling at Lu Qingdu to cease and desist. All the Quanzhen disciples felt sorry for Yang Guo for being beaten up and felt that it wasn't his fault.
And so on....
Sun Bu'Er was petty in the beginning, but she was also the first one who was touched by the love of Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu.
Yang Guo more or less storms into other people's home and demands that he wants to get married at other people's most sacred place. I can imagine why Sun Bu'er is angry. But on the other hand, the other 4 Quanzhen masters were not very angry when Yang Guo held Sun Bu'er hostage.
In fact, they could see the humour in it. They thought:"We (the Seven Masters of Quanzhen) have roamed the realm for decades and seen and fought so many great adversaries in our time. And now in our final years, we are being put in an awkward position by a youngster." And they actually smiled about this absurd situation and were not that angry at all.
This was one of those moments, I thought:"The Quanzhen masters are one of the best and sympathetic "clergymen" that exist in Jin Yong's universe." Compare them to a number of other Taoist priests or Buddhist monks, the Seven Masters really shine.
The Five Masters fought Xiao Longnu because, they just came out of the Yuxu Cave and saw Xiao Longnu stabbing one of their disciples. They didn't know that Zhen Zhibing was a rapist. What would you do if for instance your own son or daugther was stabbed by someone, wouldn't you jump in and defend your child with everything you have. And when Qiu Chuji was in a disadvantage, the other masters jumped into the fight. What else was there to do, seeing your own martial arts brother getting killed is not an option.

We can't blame Lin Chaoying alone for falling out between herself and Wang Chongyang. Both were to blame. But I really dislike how Lin Chaoying thinks that it was entirely Wang Chongyang's fault and he was heartless and ungrateful.
The last time I checked Lin was also to blame.

[IcyFox]

A quote I took from my friend:

"There is no good or evil; only winners and losers. Winners are always good and losers are always bad."

[MrIllusion]

If anything, that sort of rudeness makes Yang Guo look like a disrespectful wanker.

I disagree. YG was a teenager who was raised without proper parental guidance (literally 'mei jia jiao' or [没家教]). Sun Bu'er was a priestess in a well-known, orthodox Taoist sect, with several disciples under her.

I can understand someone like Ouyang Feng or Huang Yaoshi getting pissed off. But for someone like a monk or priest to be so caught up with secular emotions like pride and 'face' says a lot about his lack of training.

The Five Masters fought Xiao Longnu because, they just came out of the Yuxu Cave and saw Xiao Longnu stabbing one of their disciples. They didn't know that Zhen Zhibing was a rapist. What would you do if for instance your own son or daugther was stabbed by someone, wouldn't you jump in and defend your child with everything you have. And when Qiu Chuji was in a disadvantage, the other masters jumped into the fight. What else was there to do, seeing your own martial arts brother getting killed is not an option.

Actually they were already outside when it happened. In fact, Qiu Chuji saw Zhen Zhibing sacrifice himself to save XLN from the wheels. He just didn't know that when XLN stabbed him, it was unintentional, and misinterpreted it as an attack.

By the same token, YG could have held Jinlun and the Quanzhen elders accountable for hurting XLN. He might not have time to kill the elders, but he could definitely kill Jinlun and Daerba. He let them all off anyway.

Sun Bu'Er was petty in the beginning, but she was also the first one who was touched by the love of Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu.

I believe this is precisely why JY wrote that line. If it had been someone more forgiving and generous like Qiu Chuji or even the late-Ma Yu, the impact wouldn't be as great.

He had to use someone whom the readers thought was incapable of understanding such emotions.

But I really dislike how Lin Chaoying thinks that it was entirely Wang Chongyang's fault and he was heartless and ungrateful.

I don't understand why JY chose to write their relationship in this way, out of a hundred possible ways to make their relationship end. I think one possible reason would be to contrast the relationship between Lin Chaoying vs Wang Chongyang, and Li Mochou vs Lu Zhanyuan.

Both women did not end up with the men they wanted. Lin Chaoying gave way to depression and isolated herself from people, while Li Mochou succumbed to anger and went on a killing spree.

So maybe it's just to give the two personalities more depth.