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The underlying principles of the various "Counter All Other" martial arts
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Thread: The underlying principles of the various "Counter All Other" martial arts

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Default The underlying principles of the various "Counter All Other" martial arts

    The purpose of this topic is the summarize and COMPARE the underlining principle of each of the several martial arts systems which claim to be able to "counter all other styles," or at least "provide a possible solution in all situations." But in order to achieve this summary, I will need some help from all of you.

    Here are the martial arts systems:
    1. Murong family's Shifting North Star technique
    2. Wudang's Taiji art.
    3. Dugu Nine Swords
    4. Huang Shang's Nine Yin
    5. Ming Cult's Qiankun Danuo Yi

    Did I miss anything?

    Firstly, I have a question about Shifting North Star. The basic idea is to shift the opponent's kung fu energy to somewhere else (most likely, but not limited to, back to the opponent), which sounds a lot like Taiji. But the Murong family also practiced the kung fu of all schools. Is this related to how Star Shifting Technique works? More specifically, does Star Shifting Technique only work if Murong X has learned the opponent's kung fu? Well, we see an example of Murong Bo using Yellow Eyebrowed Monk's Jigang Finger to kill the monk; no "shifting" was involved. So maybe the shifting and the mimicking are 2 different things?

    I would greatly appreciate it if any of you write a summary for these martial arts systems.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Doesn't Heavy Iron Sword and 18 Dragon Subduing Palms also claim to counter all other martial arts? In fact, I'm not sure if there are any martial arts that _don't_ claim to be useful against all other martial arts.

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    Senior Member Yu W3i's Avatar
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    everything is useful

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K2Grey
    Doesn't Heavy Iron Sword and 18 Dragon Subduing Palms also claim to counter all other martial arts? In fact, I'm not sure if there are any martial arts that _don't_ claim to be useful against all other martial arts.
    I guess what I meant is martial arts that counter other arts by using the opponent's power against him in one way or another. Dugu 9 Swords kind of qualifies because its effectiveness depends on the skill of the opponent. 9 Yin... I'm not sure. The other 3 are spot-on candidates.

    The objective of this topic is to compare and distinguish the similar arts... in what ways are similar and how they are different. There have been a lot of confusion in the past and I just wanted to help the community and help myself make sense of all this.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member IcyFox's Avatar
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    Taiji (whether Wudang Style or not) would qualify for this classification. It is capable of 'countering' most martial arts systems including itself.


    But Taiji seems to be unique because it's probably the only system in which the most fundamental principle is making use of the opponent's force.

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    Senior Member danshu_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcyFox
    Taiji (whether Wudang Style or not) would qualify for this classification. It is capable of 'countering' most martial arts systems including itself.


    But Taiji seems to be unique because it's probably the only system in which the most fundamental principle is making use of the opponent's force.
    qian kun danuoyi also does. Of course it works to help the practitioner fully release his own latent force, but when applied against an opponent, ZWJ can use it to channel an opponent's force back on himself. In this way it arguably makes more use of the opponent's force than taiji does; taiji is based on the principle of leading an opponent's force into void before responding with one's own at the correct time and place, whereas QKDNY literally makes use of the opponent's force, even for the counterattack.

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    Senior Member IcyFox's Avatar
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    QKDMY, however, applies only to internal force. It doesn't really work for external forces.

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    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Here are the martial arts systems:
    1. Murong family's Shifting North Star technique
    2. Wudang's Taiji art.
    3. Dugu Nine Swords
    4. Huang Shang's Nine Yin
    5. Ming Cult's Qiankun Danuo Yi
    I believe out of all these 5 martial arts, only QKDNY requires the practitioner to have powerful internal energy before being allowed to practise.

    Ming Sect already existed before the era of DGSD.

    So we could say QKDNY exists in DGSD, its just that Ming Sect and QKDNY is not famous during that time.

    So how would QKDNY fare against Murong Family's Star Shifting Technique in terms of ability?
    ..ext88

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IcyFox
    QKDMY, however, applies only to internal force. It doesn't really work for external forces.

    QKDNY fully applies to all physical martial arts. How else can you explain it doing things like causing the two opponents you're fighting to hit each other (directly, not returning their forces).

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    Senior Member danshu_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    QKDNY fully applies to all physical martial arts. How else can you explain it doing things like causing the two opponents you're fighting to hit each other (directly, not returning their forces).
    exactly. I was just about to post that myself. all movements have some energy associated with them.

    Another thought: can taiji redirect internal energy? i'm not sure.. it seems to require a physical movement, what about an energy stream?

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Question

    I was hoping that one of our experts would write a few words about Shifting North Stars:

    I have a question about Shifting North Star. The basic idea is to shift the opponent's kung fu energy to somewhere else (most likely, but not limited to, back to the opponent), which sounds a lot like Taiji. But the Murong family also practiced the kung fu of all schools. Is this related to how Star Shifting Technique works? More specifically, does Star Shifting Technique only work if Murong X has learned the opponent's kung fu? Well, we see an example of Murong Bo using Yellow Eyebrowed Monk's Jigang Finger to kill the monk; no "shifting" was involved. So maybe the shifting and the mimicking are 2 different things?
    Lav, Athena, Candide, Hanky, bliss, Chrono.... anyone care to share your thoughts?
    Last edited by PJ; 04-02-06 at 08:11 PM.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    I was hoping that one of our experts would write a few words about Shifting North Stars:
    Lav, Athena, Candide, Hanky, bliss, Chrono.... anyone care to share your thoughts?
    慕容氏先祖龍城創下一門[斗轉星移] 絕技, 儘管這項能轉移對手攻擊來路的精妙武學, 為慕容氏創下 [以彼之道, 還施彼生] 的響亮名頭, 但郤頗有 [依人作嫁] 的意味。
    This is what Murong Bo thought of his own family skill the Shifting North Star technique in the third edition. That is why he also went to Shaolin to copy down the Shaolin skills, hoping that in the future that he could impart some Shaolin skills to his "banner men."

    Sorry, PJ. I might write something extra later on. But this is all I have at the moment.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    taiji quan is based on the yinyang principle and the five elements and eight triagrams. QKWD is from persia so the principles differ, through there are similarities. shifting north star skill is based on the movements of the big dipper. it more a formation skill used by a single person. it more suited to break formations then the other two. QKWD is based on different levels of inner power to execute each level. taiji can be used with no inner power actively used. shifting north star skill can be used even if the person has little inner power but gets better as the users inner power grows.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena
    慕容氏先祖龍城創下一門[斗轉星移] 絕技, 儘管這項能轉移對手攻擊來路的精妙武學, 為慕容氏創下 [以彼之道, 還施彼生] 的響亮名頭, 但郤頗有 [依人作嫁] 的意味。
    Hmm, from this brief passage it seems that Shifting North Stars is simply returning one's exerted power back to him, making it look like Murong knows their kung fu (a bit like cheating, as the passage indicates). I'm a bit confused though; the 15 year old Murong Bo did physically point his finger at Reverend Huangmei. I assume that Murong Bo had really authentically learned Jingang Finger. So that means the Murong family does learn various martial arts of the world. But why would they need to learn their opponents' arts when they can just shift their opponents' power? That was the source of my confusion.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    黃眉僧搖頭道:「說來慚愧,老衲不知。其實這少年當時這一指是否真是金剛指,我也沒看清楚,只覺得出手不大像。但不管是不是,總之是厲害得很,厲害得很
    ...Yellow-browed monk shook his head...To be honest with you I am unable to verify whether the young man's finger jab was Vajra Finger or not. I just felt that his execution was [B]different than normal[B/]...

    Trace back to when he made his appearance in Mount Shaoshi and you'll find your answer there.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanky Panky
    黃眉僧搖頭道:「說來慚愧,老衲不知。其實這少年當時這一指是否真是金剛指,我也沒看清楚,只覺得出手不大像。但不管是不是,總之是厲害得很,厲害得很
    Great find. Thanks. So, Murong Bo was actually using Murong family's Canhe Finger technique on Reverend Huangmei.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    I still have a question about the Murong Family. According to this information from the novel, the Shifting North Star technique is what gave them the honorable reputation "Reversing one's martial arts back to himself" (Yi bi zhi dao, huan shi bi sheng), and this technique can reverse any kung fu:

    姑苏慕容家最拿手的绝技,乃是一门借力打力之技,叫做斗转星移。外人不知底细,见到慕容氏以彼之道, 还施彼身神乎其技,凡在致人死命之时,总是以对方的成名绝技加诸其身,显然天下各门各派的绝技,姑苏慕容 氏无一不会,无一不精。其实武林中绝技千千万万,任他如何聪明渊博,决难将每一项绝技都学会了,何况既是绝 技,自非朝夕之功所能练成。但慕容氏有了这一门巧妙无比的斗转星移之术,不论对方施出何种功夫来,都能 将之转移力道,反击到对方自身。



    My question is: why does Murong Fu still bother learning the martial arts of various schools, when he hasn't even mastered his family's own signature martial arts The Shifting North Star technique?
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member kyss of the sword's Avatar
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    his family is known for 'using your own method against you'. shifting stars method only shifts force back upon the opponent, his needs to know the opponents methods to keep his family's reputation. plus the more he knows about the opponents moves, the easier it is to sift back the force. ame for taijiquan and QKDNY.
    THE KYSS OF THE SWORD IS DEADLY BUT EXQUSITE
    he's the strongest in history but he's the disciple.
    http://www.mangafox.com/manga/histor...ciple_kenichi/

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    I think MRF partly learns others is because as kyss said, to get the reputation up. You ask why he doesn't just use Star Shift Stance everytime? That's because according to the DCQ vs. MRF battle, it was stated that the Mu Rong faimly didn't want to bust out their secret weapon until it was needed to do so. Unfortunetly, even after busting out his "secret" weapon, MRF was still not able to handle DCQ.
    As for the internal training. I actually think how strong you can move your opponent's attack also depends on the internal. MRF apparently had trouble executing Star Shift on DCQ. So the stronger your internal, the better you can execute it. Though there isn't a minimum requirement on internal to learn it (different from QKDLY), but like QKDLY, the more, the stronger/better.
    Star Shift Stance only can do all that moving and reflecting stuff. QKLDY on the other hand seems to be more useful though it's harder to learn. QKLDY is able to tap the full potential in a person+QKDLY can cause weaknesses in stances. The only reason why I think QKLDY partially didn't work very well against Klun Lun + Hua shan leader is because at first no matter how you move it, the position would still be as confusing as ever. And IIRC, QKDLY also lets you learn your opponents external arts easily like ZWJ did to Kong Xin's Dragon Claw after one performance.

    Overall- QKDLY is harder to learn, but better and more useful than Star Shift.

    Taji is, yin/yang, Octragram, 5 Element positions. All of them are one of the highest level of philosophy.
    法王正欲回掌相击,突听嗤嗤轻响一股柔和的气流涌向面门,正是一灯大师使出一阳指功夫,正面拦截。法王一直没将这白眉老僧放在眼内,那料到他这一指之功,竟是如此深厚
    此时一灯大师的一阳指功夫实已到了登峰造极、炉火纯青的地步,指上发出的那股罡气似是温淳平和,但沛然浑厚,无可与抗

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    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    QKDNY doesn't really cause weaknesses. It just allows you to do more such that things that weren't flaws become flaws.


    This is demonstrated by a thought that GJ had when observing HYS vs OYF in their internal energy music duel. Even though HYS at one point would've won if it just went a little higher, HYS didn't. The point is that there are many things you can do if you have the ability to, but don't. This is similar to narrator's explanation of why ZWJ saw so many flaws.

    By giving you more utilization of your energy, QKDNY opens up more ways of attack.

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