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Thread: For the nth time, How would you rank the Greats?

  1. #181
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    My laptop crashed so I wasn't able to provide replies yesterday.
    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    Can you provide the text in which Xiao Feng carried 150 jin of weight and did not affect his running speed? I would think that the weight should slow him down (compared to if he didn't have the weight).

    I have seen quite a few instances where talking slows down the runner
    No problemo.
    那四人大聲怒喝, 又有兩鋼杖捧在手中,已有一六七十斤,蕭峰腳下絲毫不緩
    …there was 2 more steel canes that ended up in both his hands. It was 160-170 pounds of weight he was carrying but it did not hinder his speed in the slightest degree.

    A scene that was left out from the 3rd edition: -
    蕭峰笑道:“你手誅白世鏡這等奸徒,實是英雄了得,蕭峰甘拜下風,輕功不如你。咱二人去沽酒喝 吧,不比了,不比了。”他一面說話,一面奔跑,腳下絲毫不緩
    那人突然止步,說道:“喬峰威震江湖,果然名不虛傳。你口中說話,真氣仍然運使自如,真英雄, 真豪傑!”
    Xiao Feng laughed out, “Your slaying of the villain Bai Shijing is truly the actions of a hero. I, Xiao Feng submit to you, my lightness skill can’t be compared to yours. Why don’t the both of us go for a few pints, let’s quit this.” Even when he spoke and ran simultaneously, there wasn’t a single sign of lagging in his speed.
    The man suddenly went no further, and spoke out, “The name of Qiao Feng awing the world, is not a false reputation after all. Even when you speak, your zhen qi can still be utilised smoothly without problems, such heroic spirit!”

    This scene IMO indicates that XYS couldn’t emulate what his son just did there. I have no idea if it was to do with his old age or (unlikely) his inexperience with qigong as demonstrated by Xuzhu when he landed hard on the ground whilst jumping and the same when he spoke to TSTL and got smacked by one of LQS’s palm strikes.
    But ZWJ’s feat in HSDS was also very comparable to XF’s, so it’s not a question of purity to able to perform this:
    卻見他不即不離,仍是和自己並肩而行,忽聽他說道:「殷前輩,這青翼蝠王奔跑雖快,未必 長力也夠,咱們跟他死纏到底。」

    殷野王吃了一驚,立時停步,自忖:「我施展如此輕功,已是竭盡平 生之力,別說開口說話,便是換錯了一口氣也是不成。這小子隨口說 話,居然足下絲毫不慢,那是什麼功夫?」
    He (Yin Yewang) saw that he (Zhang Wuji) was within arm’s length reach of him, and still remained abreast of him. Then he suddenly heard him say, “Blah, blah, blah...”
    Yin Yewang was startled and immediately stopped, speculating: “For me to execute to this kind of Lightness Skill has already used up my utmost effort. Even when taking in the wrong breath it would be inappropriate, much less opening my mouth. This fellow spoke out freely and it wasn’t able to affect his speed rate in the slightest, what kind of kung fu is this?”

    I am sure that running and palm attacks both require internal energy, so it makes sense to me that if you fire a palm while running, you end up firing a weaker palm && running slower.
    XF was firing palms at Sweeper and the gap between them was still 2-3 Zhang range.

    Athena: Funny thing is though, people before have posted up in Chinese forums claiming their Chinese Literature teachers have all said that ’WCY can defeat the 4 of them’ is the definitive way to read it. I see that popping up all the time, I can’t really argue against them. All I’m trying to point out here is that it would lead to inconsistencies regarding WCY’s level if you take a look at the examples of the very first edition and another from 2nd. The first edition is unmistakable of it implying that WCY is inferior to H7G by the time of ROCH. As we know, H7G is also slightly below ZBT‘s level. When all of this has been taken into account, it would therefore be impossible for WCY to defeat 4 Mongolian warriors. That is of course, unless the QZ 5 masters have seriously overestimated their master. In the first example I’ve given: YG coupled with confirmation by the narrator that WCY has been surpassed by H7G. The same with the 2nd edition.
    I really can’t see a sudden change of heart from Jinyong especially when the same passage is found in the oldest edition:

    丘處機等心想:「若是先師在世,自能勝得過他們,周師祖大概也勝他們一籌,但說到
    同時受這四人圍攻,十九要抵敵不住。」

    Except that this time Jinyong removed ‘說到‘ and replaced it with ‘若‘.But when you see this and my first example existing in the same edition there isn’t any convergence if the scholars were right.

    There’s also another part from LOCH that puts WCY again in an unfavourable position in this argument which hasn‘t been changed in the 3rd Edition:

    歐陽鋒)淡淡的道:「全真派的武功非同小可,這個咱們都是領教過的。老頑童再加上《九陰真經》,就算王重陽 復生,也未見得是他師弟對手,更不必說咱們了。唉,全真派該當興旺,你我三人辛勤一世,到頭來總還是棋差一 著。」
    Ouyang Feng said, “…Old Urchin who’s got the 9 Yin, even if Wang Chongyang was restored to life there’s nothing that’s indicative he would be a match for his junior martial bro; not much point in talking about us…

    The purpose of these words of ’not much point in talking about us’ is to declare their (OYF’s, HYS’s and H7G’s) inferiority to WCY. But in spite of this, OYF was still certain that WCY (perhaps at his prime) was inferior to ZBT equipped with 9 Yin.

    Did Jin Yong intend to have that particular sentence to have the sixth or seventh meaning instead or the more clear-cut first meaning?
    I wouldn’t say clear-cut; if myself and the several others differ with another interpretation, then there‘s clearly some ambiguity in the given text. My Chinese isn’t first-rate but good enough to distinguish whether certain sentences are legible or illegible.

    The novel said that he absorbed the essence of Jiuyin and attained profiency in the art of Jiuyin.
    I don’t think it can be comparable to the boost GJ got, but yes, there’s likely chance of improvement in his martial arts. WCY had the highest understanding of Taoist martial arts out of the 4 Greats, so I believe it’s pretty rational of him being able to acquire the essence of 9 Yin quicker than the others. Remember: GJ didn’t learn the Big Dipper Formation just by relying on observation, the 9 Yin manual helped him. So already we know for a fact that WCY’s Taoist style is not much different from the creator’s (Huang Shang‘s). Furthermore, he wasn’t able to learn the Sanskrit part of the 9 Yin and that was the most important bit of the manual, outlining the dangers of martial arts being “9 Yin” and the necessity for soft and hard style of combat. So WCY in learning the 2 volumes without the most important part did not gain the full benefits. GJ has learnt this crucial part (thankfully with Yideng‘s help), and that’s one of the many reasons why I would place him above WCY. Simply becoz of his neutralization and refinement of the external/hard techniques that he picked up in his lifetime. WCY’s martial arts philosophy was probably still dominant in soft counter hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Han Solo
    2) There used to be the counter-arguement using the recollection of YD of the 1st Huashan where all of the greats are in extreme exhaustion and have to be helped by HYS's medicines. This obviously includes WCY at his near peak level vs the much younger greats, who would go on to improve.

    Is this passage deleted from the new 3rd edition?
    That part remains.
    Last edited by Hanky Panky; 04-12-06 at 03:44 PM.

  2. #182
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    To Hanky,

    Very interesting example about Xiao Feng and Zhang Wuji running while talking. From these and other examples I believe that one would be able to talk and run at full speed, if one has extremely profound internal energy. Shi Potian did the same in Ode to Gallantry. Is it possible that they did not use all their energy on running, e.g. reserve a small amount for things like talking?

    XF was firing palms at Sweeper and the gap between them was still 2-3 Zhang range.
    To me, this indicates that his palm energy would be able to reach farther if he wasn't running. For example, when he was running, he couldn't reach sweeper monk from 2-3 zhang. But I would think that if he was not running, then he can reach sweeper monk from 2-3 zhang.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    To me, this indicates that his palm energy would be able to reach farther if he wasn't running. For example, when he was running, he couldn't reach sweeper monk from 2-3 zhang. But I would think that if he was not running, then he can reach sweeper monk from 2-3 zhang.
    …但離那老僧背后始終有兩三丈遠近,連連發掌,都打空處
    那老僧在荒山中東一轉,西一拐,到了林間一處平曠之地…
    …But was still 2/3 Zhangs distant apart from the old monk’s back. When he threw out palms repeatedly, they all struck empty spots.
    That old monk changed directions left and right up the lone hill…

    Notice the emphasis I've given on the '入' and '空處' characters.

    In other words XF’s had thrown all the rocket artillery that he had at Sweeper monk, but they all weren’t on target. It makes it more difficult to hit him with all the trees as obstruction and all of Sweeper Monk's dodging antics at full play. Refer to DGSD 03' for reference.

    As I’ve illustrated in my previous post, he is capable of executing a palm strike that’s probably around 4 Zhang scope even when running:

    …他出掌之時,與丁春秋相距尚有十五六丈,但說到便到,力自掌生之際,兩個相距已不過七八丈。…殊不料蕭峰一掌既出,身子已搶到離他三四丈外,又是一招 “見龍在田”,后掌推前掌,雙掌力道并在一 起,排山倒海的壓將過來。…
    …When he (Xiao Feng) struck his palm towards Ding Chunqiu, they were at a distance of 150-160 feet. But before this realisation had sunk in, they were now no more than 70-80 feet away from each other the moment when energy had began to generate from his palm …Never did he (DCQ) expect that even after the last palm strike, he had struck out yet another “Seeing Dragon In The Field” within 30-40 feet of him. The first strike driven ahead by the second, the fused forces of both palms billowed forward with earth-shaking intensity...

    The way I interpret the Chinese is this: XF prepared his initial strokes of the XLZ manoeuvre at 15-16 Zhang away, but the actual time when energy started to develop was at the 7-8 (let’s agree it’s 7.5) zhang point and the next time he used XLZ again to push his previous effort was 3-4 (3.5) zhang. The maths is easy: 7.5 - 3.5 = 4 Zhang.

    If his palm strike couldn’t stretch to 2-3 Zhang whilst running then that feat done against DCQ would not be possible. XF would've grabbed thin air when he was 3-4 Zhang away from DCQ.
    Last edited by Hanky Panky; 04-12-06 at 04:54 PM.

  4. #184
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    As I’ve illustrated in my previous post, he is capable of executing a palm strike that’s probably around 4 Zhang scope even when running
    That was running within a short, confined range. 140 feet of running doesn't exhaust much energy compared to his running with the Sweeper Monk.

    I still think that his palm energy would be able to reach farther if he wasn't running.

    they all struck empty spots
    That's one way to interpret it. It can also be interpreted as [they all struck EMPTY, i.e. he could not reach that far.

    That old monk changed directions left and right up the lone hill…
    I think it would be kind of odd if after like 100 palms, Xiao Feng could not land ONE correct palm close to the Sweeper Monk
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  5. #185
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    打入了空處/ 砍了個空/ 抓了個空

    Struck empty areas/ the chop hit empty/ the grabbing was empty are all similar types of phrases that mean they missed ‘something’ almost under their mercy if only ‘it’ hadn’t moved, shifted or dodged etc.

    I think it would be kind of odd if after like 100 palms, Xiao Feng could not land ONE correct palm close to the Sweeper Monk.
    Not when the trees are in the way. Plus with a certain hurricane-like force breathing down your neck, what is the wisest thing to do?

  6. #186
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    Using your words from before: I guess I can agree with you there.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  7. #187
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    I guess Wang Chongyang just isn't cool enough to be the best. Even if he did defeat the best.

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    PJ, to give credit to you: your theories are absolutely right in the reality sense. But this is Wuxia BS here, a lot of it is nonsense and inaccurate. E.g. If it is true that 5 Zhang is the limit in which palm strikes can be projected, then what LQS did to Xuzhu is not possible. We’re talking about Xuzhu being a moving target (dynamic) as opposed to static. I’d guess that as LQS’s palm strikes have extended as far as the 5 Zhang point, Xuzhu would’ve already moved away from there. I don’t think there’s any evidence to prove that their palm energies can travel faster than bullets.

  9. #189
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    PJ, to give credit to you: your theories are absolutely right in the reality sense.


    .
    .
    .
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanky Panky

    There’s also another part from LOCH that puts WCY again in an unfavourable position in this argument which hasn‘t been changed in the 3rd Edition:

    歐陽鋒淡淡的道:「全真派的武功非同小可,這個咱們都是領教過的。老頑童再加上《九陰真經》,就算王重陽復 生,也未見得是他師弟對手,更不必說咱們了。唉,全真派該當興旺,你我三人辛勤一世,到頭來總還是棋差一著 。」
    Ouyang Feng said, “…Old Urchin who’s got the 9 Yin, even if Wang Chongyang was restored to life there’s nothing that’s indicative he would be a match for his junior martial bro; not much point in talking about us…

    The purpose of these words of ’not much point in talking about us’ is to declare their (OYF’s, HYS’s and H7G’s) inferiority to WCY. But in spite of this, OYF was still certain that WCY (perhaps at his prime) was inferior to ZBT equipped with 9 Yin.


    I wouldn’t say clear-cut; if myself and the several others differ with another interpretation, then there‘s clearly some ambiguity in the given text. My Chinese isn’t first-rate but good enough to distinguish whether certain sentences are legible or illegible.


    I don’t think it can be comparable to the boost GJ got, but yes, there’s likely chance of improvement in his martial arts. WCY had the highest understanding of Taoist martial arts out of the 4 Greats, so I believe it’s pretty rational of him being able to acquire the essence of 9 Yin quicker than the others. Remember: GJ didn’t learn the Big Dipper Formation just by relying on observation, the 9 Yin manual helped him. So already we know for a fact that WCY’s Taoist style is not much different from the creator’s (Huang Shang‘s). Furthermore, he wasn’t able to learn the Sanskrit part of the 9 Yin and that was the most important bit of the manual, outlining the dangers of martial arts being “9 Yin” and the necessity for soft and hard style of combat. So WCY in learning the 2 volumes without the most important part did not gain the full benefits. GJ has learnt this crucial part (thankfully with Yideng‘s help), and that’s one of the many reasons why I would place him above WCY. Simply becoz of his neutralization and refinement of the external/hard techniques that he picked up in his lifetime. WCY’s martial arts philosophy was probably still dominant in soft counter hard.

    That part remains.
    Ouyang Feng made that remark about Zhou Botong v.s. Wang Chongyang before Huang Yaoshi and himself went to confront Zhou Botong in the cave on Peach Blossom Isle. He didn't even see Zhou Botong in action (the last time he saw Zhou Botong in action was more than 20 years ago). He said that remark hoping Huang Yaoshi would flush Zhou Botong out and that way Jiuyin Zhenjing would also appear.
    Ouyang Feng said coldly that there was no point to hold the Huashan tournament anymore, because now that Zhou Botong knows Jiuyin they (East Heretic, West Venom, South Emperor and North Beggar) will never be able to defeat Zhou Botong.
    Huang Yaoshi replied that this remains to be seen.
    Ouyang Feng was pleased that Huang Yaoshi was falling for his trick and added that all of them knew how formidable Quanzhen martial arts was. Now that Zhou Botong knows both, Ouyang Feng added that Wang Chongyang might not be able to defeat his younger martial arts brother too.
    In other words, Ouyang Feng was more or less spouting nonsense to provoke Huang Yaoshi. But if you place more value in the sarcastic words of Ouyang Feng, fine with me!

    2) There used to be the counter-arguement using the recollection of YD of the 1st Huashan where all of the greats are in extreme exhaustion and have to be helped by HYS's medicines. This obviously includes WCY at his near peak level vs the much younger greats, who would go on to improve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laviathan
    What Yideng said was more about the great effects of the Flower Jade Pills but if you like to use it as an indication for the Greats' situation... fine. But I don't understand why a simple remark of Yideng concerning some pills makes such sense to you, while the analysis of the Quanzhen masters about their teacher's martial arts level is treated as "biased", "they just don't know" or "something someone said 50 or 60 years later". How come Yideng''s words form the undeniable truth while the thoughts of the Quanzhen Masters are gibberish?
    Maybe Duan Zhixing (Yideng) at the time was really tired, but how does he know Wang Chongyang was exhausted after the tournament? Maybe Yideng just assumed Wang was exhausted or maybe he just didn't paid much attention to it. Just because Yideng says it does not make it true even though he believes it's true. Besides, Wang Chongyang was much older than the other four greats, so it is not very strange he got tired. Just because he was tired doesn't mean a thing. In HSDS Zhang Sanfeng was clearly invincible yet due to his old age, Zhang Wuji was reluctant to let him engage in combat.
    And as for Dugu Qiubai being at least as good as Yang Guo is also quite an assumption. I think even a person with superior strength could wield that sword, like the likes of Oboi, A San, etc. Just because Yang Guo could wield the Heavy Iron Sword with no problem and Dugu could wield the sword too does not have to equal that they are alike. But, personally I do believe that Dugu is AT LEAST as good as Yang Guo.
    Last edited by Athena; 04-13-06 at 06:36 AM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanky Panky

    Athena: Funny thing is though, people before have posted up in Chinese forums claiming their Chinese Literature teachers have all said that ’WCY can defeat the 4 of them’ is the definitive way to read it. I see that popping up all the time, I can’t really argue against them. All I’m trying to point out here is that it would lead to inconsistencies regarding WCY’s level if you take a look at the examples of the very first edition and another from 2nd. The first edition is unmistakable of it implying that WCY is inferior to H7G by the time of ROCH. As we know, H7G is also slightly below ZBT‘s level. When all of this has been taken into account, it would therefore be impossible for WCY to defeat 4 Mongolian warriors. That is of course, unless the QZ 5 masters have seriously overestimated their master. In the first example I’ve given: YG coupled with confirmation by the narrator that WCY has been surpassed by H7G. The same with the 2nd edition.
    I really can’t see a sudden change of heart from Jinyong especially when the same passage is found in the oldest edition:

    丘處機等心想:「若是先師在世,自能勝得過他們,周師祖大概也勝他們一籌,但說到
    同時受這四人圍攻,十九要抵敵不住。」

    Except that this time Jinyong removed ‘說到‘ and replaced it with ‘若‘.But when you see this and my first example existing in the same edition there isn’t any convergence if the scholars were right.

    There’s also another part from LOCH that puts WCY again in an unfavourable position in this argument which hasn‘t been changed in the 3rd Edition:

    I wouldn’t say clear-cut; if myself and the several others differ with another interpretation, then there‘s clearly some ambiguity in the given text. My Chinese isn’t first-rate but good enough to distinguish whether certain sentences are legible or illegible.


    I don’t think it can be comparable to the boost GJ got, but yes, there’s likely chance of improvement in his martial arts. WCY had the highest understanding of Taoist martial arts out of the 4 Greats, so I believe it’s pretty rational of him being able to acquire the essence of 9 Yin quicker than the others. Remember: GJ didn’t learn the Big Dipper Formation just by relying on observation, the 9 Yin manual helped him. So already we know for a fact that WCY’s Taoist style is not much different from the creator’s (Huang Shang‘s). Furthermore, he wasn’t able to learn the Sanskrit part of the 9 Yin and that was the most important bit of the manual, outlining the dangers of martial arts being “9 Yin” and the necessity for soft and hard style of combat. So WCY in learning the 2 volumes without the most important part did not gain the full benefits. GJ has learnt this crucial part (thankfully with Yideng‘s help), and that’s one of the many reasons why I would place him above WCY. Simply becoz of his neutralization and refinement of the external/hard techniques that he picked up in his lifetime. WCY’s martial arts philosophy was probably still dominant in soft counter hard.
    I think a few of them are probably my friend(s) who also read the second and third edition. They used the second edition as a reference, because none of them have read the first one. Furthermore, in the second edition that part about Hong Qigong surpassing Wang is gone. Some of those people you doubt are professors, teachers, lecturers in Chinese literature and language. I am not saying that they should dictate how one should read and understand certain texts, but their professional opinions should weigh a lot. Again, I am not attacking you or A Bao, but with all due respect I don't think either of you are Chinese literature/language professors, lecturers, teacher or scholars in the Chinese language and literature. But then again, you could be. I don't know, no disrespect meant here.
    Wang Chongyang had the manual, ready for him and only read through it. Chen Jialuo did not really train the Chuang Tzu martial arts for a very long time only just a few moments, but he understood it and used it to defeat Zhang Zhaozhong. Yuan Chengzhi in The Sword Stained with Royal Blood hardly trained and sometimes did not even train some of the martial arts of the Golden Snake Swordsman, but Yuan could use those skills to defeat martial arts experts. Young Hu Fei could use his Taiji principles taught by Zhao Bansan to fight off old Madame Shang and her son when they attacked him at the same time.
    The part where Xiao Longnu discovers the method to unseal her acupoints with Jiuyin.
    In the previous editions only Unsealing Pressure Points Technique and the Chi Closure Technique was mentioned.
    However, in the newest edition the Soul Altering Spell (hypnosis) is added to the key of unsealing your own acupoints.
    These 3 techniques are closely related, because when one's acupoints are sealed it is almost impossible to unseal without help from the outside.
    If one would know how to shut down your breathing and chi flow the sealed pressure points would be unsealed if one's breathing and chi flow has been restored. Because by using the Chi Closure technique one more or less "resets" the entire chi system and restarts again and everything is open once more.
    However, to shut down one's chi flow is very difficult, in order to prevent oneself from not suffocating one should also learn the Soul Altering Spell (hypnosis). That way one can hypnotize oneself for a short time and let the [soul, conscience] "float" outside the body but still be aware of everything. *This sentence is roughly translated from the Chinese text
    If all three techniques are incorporated into one body, unsealing acupoints without help is very easy.
    But that is only the tip of the iceberg.
    The Jade Maiden's highest level is that in the end one cannot distinguish what is real and what is a mere fake. It is too dazzling for the naked eye, is it an illusion or is it a real attack? It is almost impossible to counter something like this. (Combined Jade Maiden swordsmanship)
    However, if one has incorporated the above three skills one will not be affected by all of those dazzling, illusionary and somewhat hypnotic Jade Maiden art. Lin Chaoying created her dazzling and illusionary skills to the point that even sheer power might not be able to break through it. (Of course Guo Jing should not fear Xiao Longnu's combination of Ancient Tomb and Quanzhen swordsmanship, but there aren't many experts like Guo Jing and there aren't many people who know the 18 Dragon Subduing Palms the bane of this sort of martial arts, including Central Divinity.)
    We could compare it to the the sword faction and qi faction of Huashan. Yue Buqun's teachings about [qi] were correct, but he, himself, could probably not defeat Feng Buping. The Golden Wheel Monk had much higer internal energy, but was still defeated by the speed of Xiao Longnu.
    Her (Lin Chaoying) method of using energy and accumulating energy is by speed, the faster you become the more energy you will accumulate.
    Every flashy movement of hers is not just a diversion (like in the case of the Southern Hengshan School in the Smiling Proud Wanderer). It not only serves to captivate the opponent's attention, but it is also there to strike the enemy in contrast to the normal convetional divesionary technique. The reason why Li Mochou was able to roam the realm that long was because of this legacy of Lin Chaoying, defeating martial arts experts with greater internal energies than her own with these brilliant techniques. And Li Mochou only knew the intermediary level of the Ancient Tomb. (However, if Li Mochou was faced with experts like Guo Jing, Huang Rong, the Greats, Ma Yu, Liu Chuxuan, Qiu Chuji and Wang Chuyi, etc. she would still lose)

    With the combination of the three Jiuyin skills, Wang Chongyang is able to put himself a level higher and reach a state of optimal clearness and would not be dazzled or overawed by it. It is like how Murong Bo's defense was flawless, but the nameless old monk/sweeper monk still tapped him to death. I am not saying that Wang Chongyang who became proficient in Jiuyin was at the level of the sweeper monk, but with it he became even more enlightened in the field of martial arts than Lin Chaoying. As result he became immune against Lin Chaoyin and her Jade Maiden Manual.When this happens it is not the question anymore of is Quanzhen superior? Or is the Jade Maiden Art better? It will be contest of wills and whoever has the highest cultivation and level in martial arts will prevail in such a fight.
    Personally, I think Wang Chongyang grasped this too.

    All of those teachers and literature students interpret it as following: The late teacher could defeat them all, Zhou Botong (D) was superior to them but he could not defeat them. Because they were of the opinion that after: [If our late teacher were still alive, he would surely be able to defeat them] is one sentence, one statement that stands alone and has ended.
    I am not doubting your Chinese here. I wouldn't dare, but if you and others want to believe that Wang Chongyang is only as good as, I don't know Ke Zhen'e that is fine too. People can believe that Xiao Feng = 5 or 6 Duan Yanqings or that Dugu = Old Sweeper Monk without any substantial proof. But refuse to believe that there is a POSSIBILITY that Wang Chongyang could overcome the Golden Wheel Monk (pre 16 years) and the three Mongolian mercenaries, it is IMPOSSIBLE. I am not saying that Central Divinity wins with ease against them, he will probably win only by a bit before death of exhaustion. I also believe that post 16 year Guo Jing and Yang Guo could defeat the pre 16 years Golden Wheel Monk and the three Mongolian mercenaries (also pre 16 years). Not with ease, but I think they could do it. People continue to undermine and find flaws and will continue to find flaws in something they refuse to believe in. There is no point for me to continue to argue about this anymore, all the points Han or Hank brought up I have addressed in the past (the pills, the sarcastic comments of Ouyang Feng). Other posters have already brought up the same points that Han and Hank bring up this time, I have to write the same things again. Why in Heaven's name do I have to repeat it again and again, it seems that no one reads what I write anymore. Why do I even bother to type and post?

    Forget it, Wang Chongyang is probably only as good as Guo Yutang in the Young Flying Fox!
    Last edited by Athena; 04-13-06 at 10:04 AM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  12. #192
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    I hear, understand and agree!

  13. #193
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    hm, I agreed. Sometimes, the same topic just sometimes get recycled and is a waste of time.

  14. #194
    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    There is no point for me to continue to argue about this anymore, all the points Han or Hank brought up I have addressed in the past. Other posters have already brought up the same points that Han and Hank bring up this time, I have to write the same things again. Why in Heaven's name do I have to repeat it again and again, it seems that no one reads what I write anymore. Why do I even bother to type and post?
    I guess, that the previous time this is being debated, i was on the other side as well.

    I respects your points and learns from them.

    It is interesting, as Hanky Panky has pointed out, to tease out the strength of WCY based on the complete picture, rather than just sketchy description of him through the eyes of QZ masters.

    Han Solo

  15. #195
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Han Solo
    I guess, that the previous time this is being debated, i was on the other side as well.

    I respects your points and learns from them.

    It is interesting, as Hanky Panky has pointed out, to tease out the strength of WCY based on the complete picture, rather than just sketchy description of him through the eyes of QZ masters.

    Han Solo
    You were, because you were, I believe, the one who asked Laviathan about the thing with the pills years ago. He responded with: What Yideng said was more about the great effects of the Flower Jade Pills but if you like to use it as an indication for the Greats' situation... fine. But I don't understand why a simple remark of Yideng concerning some pills makes such sense to you, while the analysis of the Quanzhen masters about their teacher's martial arts level is treated as "biased", "they just don't know" or "something someone said 50 or 60 years later". How come Yideng's words form the undeniable truth while the thoughts of the Quanzhen Masters are gibberish?
    Maybe Duan Zhixing (Yideng) at the time was really tired, but how does he know Wang Chongyang was exhausted after the tournament? Maybe Yideng just assumed Wang was exhausted or maybe he just didn't paid much attention to it. Just because Yideng says it does not make it true even though he believes it's true. Besides, Wang Chongyang was much older than the other four greats, so it is not very strange he got tired. Just because he was tired doesn't mean a thing. In HSDS Zhang Sanfeng was clearly invincible yet due to his old age, Zhang Wuji was reluctant to let him engage in combat.


    Let me ask you, how complete do you want that picture to be? The man is dead, we only find out about him via flashbacks. Jin Yong (deliberately) created a legendary patriarch and with each edition he leaves out something that gave an indication (and weakness) of Central Divinity. And now the only clue left is that.
    Han, I know that you always mean well. You're inquisitive and objective. You always ask critical and challenging questions, but however you never really address the "answers" the posters give.
    Last edited by Athena; 04-13-06 at 09:33 AM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  16. #196
    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena

    Let me ask you, how complete do you want that picture to be? The man is dead, we only find out about him via flashbacks. Jin Yong (deliberately) created a legendary patriarch and with each edition he leaves out something that gave an indication (and weakness) of Central Divinity. And now the only clue left is the that.
    Han, I know that you always mean well. You're inquisitive and objective. You always ask critical and challenging questions, but however you never really address the "answers" the posters give.
    Touche.

    As always, with respect,

    Han SOlo

  17. #197
    Senior Member minutemanwayne's Avatar
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    PG

    Which do you think is more impressive to you. Striking Ding Chunqiu from over a 100 feet away or Yang Guo trapping martial arts masters in his Sad Palms wave engery. The 3 Mongoloian warriors combined internal strength would of been more thatn Ding Chunqiu. Excuse me if im rambling on I'm on all kinds of shit right now.
    Yo momma cat

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    Quote Originally Posted by minutemanwayne
    Yang Guo trapping martial arts masters in his Sad Palms wave engery.
    Weren't Yeung Gor and East Heretic Wong Yerk See doing that together? That would be the internal energy of two Greats combined.

  19. #199
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by minutemanwayne
    PG

    Which do you think is more impressive to you. Striking Ding Chunqiu from over a 100 feet away or Yang Guo trapping martial arts masters in his Sad Palms wave engery. The 3 Mongoloian warriors combined internal strength would of been more thatn Ding Chunqiu. Excuse me if im rambling on I'm on all kinds of shit right now.
    Hi,

    I would say Yang Guo's display of power is more REFINED, while Xiao Feng's display of power is more RAWLLY POWERFUL. Because Yang Guo wasn't trying to injure the 3 warriors while Xiao Feng weng all-out, full-blast on Ding Chunqiu.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Senior Member minutemanwayne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Weren't Yeung Gor and East Heretic Wong Yerk See doing that together? That would be the internal energy of two Greats combined.
    Yang Guo initiated it first by blowing the mongolian first towards Huang Yaushi in which he replied back. They were basically toys compared to them
    Yo momma cat

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