For the nth time, How would you rank the Greats?

[danshu_]

Unfortunately, distance or range of attack is one of the way that we can quantify someone's internal energy.

Han Solo

thats exactly my point, which is why saying long range XXDF is less powerful than close range BMSG is like saying XF's LDA can be less powerful, despite the fact that its long

[K2Grey]

You are making the assumption BMSG is necessarily short range, however. Ren Woxing was able to absorb energy through making sword contact with enemies. Since Duan Yu never uses a physical sword in the series we cannot say that BMSG cannot absorb energy through swords. But since BMSG is superior in all other ways to XWXG presumably it is better in this way too.

[PJ]

Ah the proving the negative argument. Conversely, just because we don't see the LOCH/ROCH Greats perform an LDA doesn't mean they can't.

The difference is: in DGSD, We only saw one practioner of Beiming Shengong, and his kung fu is sketchy at best, thus we have reason to believe that he may not effectively represent the art. In the Trilogy, there are 7 or 8 Greats, totalling up to 50 or so battles. Each of them is a master of his art, and yet they never illustrated a LDA to injure their opponent. The chances of the opportunity to use LDA throughout the Trilogy is very high, but we never saw it performed. The logical conclusion is that the Greats are incapable of LDA injuries.

[danshu_]

You are making the assumption BMSG is necessarily short range, however. Ren Woxing was able to absorb energy through making sword contact with enemies. Since Duan Yu never uses a physical sword in the series we cannot say that BMSG cannot absorb energy through swords. But since BMSG is superior in all other ways to XWXG presumably it is better in this way too.

no, i'm not, I actually agree with you guys on this. i was just playing devil's advocate to illustrate the fallacy of a previous argument, not the theory its arguing.

[PJ]

Just to play devils advocate, thats like saying that even though XF can launch longer range attacks than the Greats, they may be less powerful.

Fair assumption, but impossible IMO. We have seen Xiao Feng, Murong Bo, Li Qiushui et al cause INJURY or PAIN by throwing a LDA from 20+ feet away. We have only seen the Greats PUSH their opponents away from that kind of distance. Therefore it is natural to assume that those who can cause injury are more powerful.

On a sidenote, I have thought in the past that perhaps the DGSD experts have more opportunities to show off, that's why we see all the LDA. Like when Murong Bo was showing off his Canhe Finger, and JMZ was clearly showing off at Shaolin and in Dali. Maybe the Greats can do LDA, but the chances of that is REALLY LOW. Also the DGSD experts by using LDA, could be an indication that they fight more RECKLESSLY. Maybe the Greats can do LDA but they know that doing so will burn out their energy sooner, so they don't fight like that. But then, there are other examples where they should all be using their maximum internal energy, and DGSD experts still come out ahead, like the footprint erasing examples with Jueyuan and Xiao Feng. (I do not wish to go into that discussion again, since it has been beaten to death previously and no conclusion has been drawn.) Also the roaring/mass-talking examples tentatively show that Xiao Feng is the most impressive.

[Han Solo]

Also the roaring/mass-talking examples tentatively show that Xiao Feng is the most impressive.

Really? I always thought that YD would shine far more than QF in this area.

But if you are talking about JMZ ....

[Han Solo]

thats exactly my point, which is why saying long range XXDF is less powerful than close range BMSG is like saying XF's LDA can be less powerful, despite the fact that its long

It's not.

We don't have a clear cut evidence anyway.

Btw, besides the examples of LHC vs Chong Xue, is there any other contactless "s-ucking"power of XXDF?

Han Solo

[PJ]

Really? I always thought that YD would shine far more than QF in this area.

But if you are talking about JMZ ....

Eh? Yideng wasn't even as loud as Yang Guo, right?

Guo Jing was heard by tens of thousands of people, which could be anywhere between 20000 to 90000. Xiao Feng was heard by over 100000 people. Huang Yaoshi was heard by probably 50000 people, according to Hanky Panky's estimate.

[Athena]

When Guo Jing injures two people with palm energies (without making contact) it was the wall that caused those two martial artists to throw up blood. Of course!

Yin Tianzheng and zen master Dunan could throw long distance attacks at each other from 4 metres distance in HSDS. That would make them as good as Yideng and the Golden Wheel Monk?

[danshu_]

Fair assumption, but impossible IMO. We have seen Xiao Feng, Murong Bo, Li Qiushui et al cause INJURY or PAIN by throwing a LDA from 20+ feet away. We have only seen the Greats PUSH their opponents away from that kind of distance. Therefore it is natural to assume that those who can cause injury are more powerful.

yeah, i also think its impossible.

It's not.

We don't have a clear cut evidence anyway.

Btw, besides the examples of LHC vs Chong Xue, is there any other contactless "s-ucking"power of XXDF?

Han Solo

hey man, i already replied to this above in post 64

[PJ]

Yin Tianzheng and zen master Dunan could throw long distance attacks at each other from 4 metres distance in HSDS.

Yes, but they could not injure or cause pain to each other from that distance.

The palm wind generated by Yideng and Golden Wheel Monk should be more powerful, but since both masters are of higher calibre, their wind could not injure each other. If Yideng fought Yin Tianzheng, I think Yideng might be able to injure Yin from 10 feet distance. But since Golden Wheel Monk is more powerful, he would not suffer injury from Yideng's wind.

[Athena]

Written by Laviathan Internal Power & LDA

In HSDS, Dunan is the weakest of the Three Monks, yet he's about as good as Yin Tianzheng and Yang Xiao combined. This was also confirmed by Zhang Wuji, stating that the three monks were on the level of the Xuanming Elders, albeit somewhat higher.

A long distance attack is a long distance attack. "Pushing or shoving" your opponent away is not really a sophisticated method. You want to do serious damage to your opponent, it is unlikely that Dunan and Yin Tianzheng only wanted to "push" away each other.

When the Ming Cult trio advanced into the Diamond Taming Demon Circle, they had to stop at somewhat more than one zhang (1 zhang is about 3,5 meters) distance with the monks. From this distance, Yin Tianzheng launched palm strikes at Dunan, which the latter countered with Sumeru Mountain Palm. The two of them kept exchanging strokes, with Yin Tianzheng going back and forth. The distance was still more 3,5 meters to 4 meters.

In DGSD, it was said that no matter how powerful your palm energy is, no one could ever exceed the distance of 5 zhang (16,5 meters). In Chapter 36, Li Qiushui was chasing Xuzhu who carried Tianshan Tonglao. The distance between them was more than 5 zhang. But once Xuzhu slowed down, Li Qiushui could hit him with her Ice Palm. This indicates that Li Qiushui has reached the maximum level of palm attack range of 16,5 meters.

In Chapter 41, Ding Chunqiu evaded Xiao Feng's palm attack by jumping 3 zhang backwards. Later on, Murong Fu did the same thing. This more or less implies that the two of them considered 3 zhang distance to be relatively safe. And based on the description of Xiao Feng's palm attacks, his power could travel about 10 meters. In Chapter 43, he attacked Murong Bo from "several zhangs", and he also chased Sweeper Monk and attacked several times from a distance of 10 meters, but his power "could not reach the target". All this info points out Xiao Feng's range was about 10 meters, so Li Qiushui is superior to Xiao Feng (which is not a strange thing at all).

In ROCH Chapter 38, Golden Wheel Monk and Reverend Yideng were fighting with a distance of more than one zhang between them. Now, in my opinion it is impossible that Yideng is only as good as Yin Tianzheng! In Chapter 42 of DGSD, Duan Yu kept Murong at a distance of 3,3 meters with Liumai Shenjian. So how can Duan Yu perform only as good as Yideng, who on his turn is the same as Yin Tianzheng? I think it is logical that finger blasts are more concentrated than palm energy, so it is logical that if we take two persons with similar levels of internal power, the one who performs palm attacks would have a longer range than the one using finger techniques.
Now, if we would take all of this into consideration:

Yin Tianzheng could perform a 3,5 meter distance attack with his palm

Yin Tianzheng and Yang Xiao are equals

Dunan equals Yin and Yang combined = Dunan equals two Yin Tianzhengs

Dunan is the weakest of the three monks

Zhang Wuji's internal power is more powerful than the three monks combined

...

Which basically means that Wuji is about as good as 6 of his grandfathers combined. And he really is that good. Now, I'm not saying that Wuji can perform 6 X 3,3 = 20 meters, because like Jin Yong mentioned NO ONE CAN EXCEED THE MAXIMUM OF 16,5 meters. Nor do I say palm power can be merely a simple sum of internal power stats.

BUT: Zhang Wuji definitely has the POTENTIAL to AT LEAST perform a 10 meter attack like Xiao Feng.

Internal Power & Indurance

In DGSD Chapter 41, Xiao Feng fought You Tanzhi and Murong Fu. You Tanzhi had great internal power, while Murong Fu had great techniques. It was stated that the way Xiao Feng uses his power, in the end he will surely weaken. After one hour of fighting, You and Murong woud surely gain the upperhand.

Now, the third time Zhang Wuji fought the three monks (please note that he was severely injured the day before) after less than one hour of fighting, he was gaining the upper hand, and it was stated by Jin Yong that he could easily fight for ANOTHER 2 HOURS and would surely win!

Now, the Three monks fought in a superb Shaolin formation. The three of them trained for decades and reached a level in which they moved and fought like one single unit, in complete harmony. You Tanzhi and Murong Fu proved to an excellent combo, but honestly: which team is better in your opinion? The Diamond Taming Demon Circle or You/Murong Team? Can You Tanzhi and Murong Fu take on the three monks? Or even better, do you think Xiao Feng can break the Diamond Taming Demon Circle?

That's why I strongly believe that Zhang Wuji is at least as good as Xiao Feng.

My New Ranking would be something like this:

1. The Nameless Old Sweeper Monk

2. Child Matriarch of Heavenly Mountain Tianshan Tonglao, Li Qiushui, Duan Yu, Xuzhu

3. Guo Jing, Yang Guo, Zhang Sanfeng, Zhang Wuji, Xiao Feng, Murong Bo, Xiao Yuanshan, Great Wheel Monk Jiumozhi

4. Golden Wheel Monk, Zhou Botong, Eastern Heretic Huang Yaoshi, Southern Emperor Yideng, Qiu Qianren/Ci'en, Northern Beggar Hong Qigong, Western Venom Ouyang Feng

5. Elder Kurong, Abbot Xuanci, Duan Yanqing, Duan Zhengming, Abbot Benyin and his fellow monks, Ding Chunqiu, Su Xinghe, Murong Fu, the Three Divine Monks of Shaolin Duwei, Dujie and Dunan, Reverend Kongjian,
Yuanzhen/Cheng Kun, Xuanming Elders Lu Zhangke and He Biweng, the Two Demons of Hejian Bu Tai and Hao Mi, Eight-Armed Swordsman Fang Dongbai, A Er, A San

I put Golden Wheel Monk on 4th place, because once Yang Guo could use his Sad Palm power, he defeated him fairly easily.

I ranked Xiao Feng same as Guo Jing, Yang Guo and Wuji, but I actually think that when it comes to potential, Wujiwould be superior to Xiao Feng. And Wuji is equal to Guo Jing, Yang Guo, Zhang Sanfeng etc. But of course, Xiao Feng makes it up with warrior spirit.

[Athena]

Also written by Laviathan In DGSD Chapter 25:

萧峰 ... 右手得起钢杖，对准了山壁用力一搠... 一根八尺来长的钢杖，倒有五尺插入岩中。

Xiao Feng... raised the steel staff with his right hand and forcefully threw it towards the rock. The steel staff was eight chi long (about 2,5 meters) and about five chi of it pierced into the rock. (about 1,65 meters)

In ROCH Chapter 34:

杨过 ... 顺手挥出，半截铜杵笔直插下，没入雪地之中，霎时不见了影
踪。地下积雪不到一尺，那断杵却有三尺来长。

Yang Guo ... nonchalantly tossed the broken bronze staff away, and the staff vanished directly into the frozen ground. The snow was less then one chi, yet the broken staff was more than three chi long (1 meter).

In Xiao Feng's case, he used a steel staff to pierce into mountain rock. Xiao Feng used his maximum force and he himself was amazed that he was able to penetrate the rock so deeply, showing that this was the best he can do.

In Yang Guo's case, he used a softer object (bronze) to pierce into frozen ground. In the area and climate in which this ROCH chapter took place, the frozen ground was as hard as rock. But of course, there was also a layer of snow. So let's say that Yang Guo drove about 75 cm into the ground, while the remaining 25 cm was covered by snow. Yet, it was explicitely stated that Yang Guo did it nonchalantly, i.e. he did not use much force.

So although this does not prove who is stronger, it does indicate that their power levels are comparable, IMHO.


Two great posts by Laviathan and both contain the thoughts and ideas I wanted to convey. But I don't have the "verbal" skills like Su Qin and Zhang Yi, which Laviathan obviously has.

[danshu_]

And the reason, despite my advocating for the devil, that I am of the "DGSD is more powerful than LOCH/ROCH" camp is because I believe author intention must be taken into account. PJ has already mentioned this, and dammit I can't remember where I read this, but I think it was JY saying that DGSD had the most fanciful, fantastic martial arts descriptions of all his novels, the intention being to show that "Each of the eight categories of supernatural beings has its own character and special magical skills, but although they are living outside of the space of human beings they do fully experience the joy and grief of this our dusty world." (jin yong, DGSD foreward)

This novel has heavy Buddhist themes of karma; extremely powerful characters like TSTL and LQS, JMZ, WYZ, MRF, etc. are destroyed, lose their skills, live in misery, or other. Extremely weak characters like DY and XZ are righteous nontheless and instantly gain powerful skills. Giving DGSD characters ridiculously powerful skills allows Jin Yong to highlight the themes he wished to explore.

[Dennis Chen]

I think that's the major difference between Zhang Wuji and Xiao Feng. Zhang Wuji will never reach his full potential while Xiao Feng constantly exceeded his full potential.

[duguxiaojing]

For some reason i cant get enough of these "A" vs "B" threads and its been like 2 years...i know that they usually don't go anywhere and everyone will believe what they want to believe... but their pretty enjoyable to read. I read what HP wrote a couple of days ago and im hoping that it pulls "kenny" out of retirement so that i can watch the show . Anyways i'm currently refreshing this page for the next reply while watching the heat-pistons game and while attempting 2 study .

[PJ]

See, I told you guys that Dirt was opening a can of worms with this statement:

I really don't think there's anything that shows Qiao Feng's internal energy to be on par with the Great's.

But it has been productive discussion, lot of good points brought up. I am going to attempt to write a few words about Laviathan's analysis, in hopes of getting his attention to write a few more words out of his semi-retirement.

Before I write anything further, though, I must make a confession: In my 4 or however many years with this forum, I have always admired 3 Jin Yong experts, and they are: Laviathan, Kenny, and Athena. Kenny has disappeared since then, while Lav and Athena are still around. I value their knowledge and expertise in wuxia, and have always looked up to their wisdom in hopes of learning more about the subject. To me, Athena and Laviathan are the unquestioned authority of wuxia fiction, the heart of this forum. I have thought that if one day I would have enough knowledge to discuss wuxia seriously with these 2 fine experts, then I will not have been a wuxia fan in vain.

Just wanted to say, what I'm about to write is a genuine effort to analyze a fascinating topic in Jin Yong literature, not meant as a disrespect of any kind to the 2 experts.

[SolidSnake]

When Guo Jing injures two people with palm energies (without making contact) it was the wall that caused those two martial artists to throw up blood. Of course!

Sarcasm at its best.

[Ken Cheng]

Before I write anything further, though, I must make a confession: In my 4 or however many years with this forum, I have always admired 3 Jin Yong experts, and they are: Laviathan, Kenny, and Athena. Kenny has disappeared since then, while Lav and Athena are still around. I value their knowledge and expertise in wuxia, and have always looked up to their wisdom in hopes of learning more about the subject. To me, Athena and Laviathan are the unquestioned authority of wuxia fiction, the heart of this forum. I have thought that if one day I would have enough knowledge to discuss wuxia seriously with these 2 fine experts, then I will not have been a wuxia fan in vain.

Just wanted to say, what I'm about to write is a genuine effort to analyze a fascinating topic in Jin Yong literature, not meant as a disrespect of any kind to the 2 experts.

There was one more who never made it over here to SPCNET Forum, but at the Yushy Jin Yong Forums, he was every bit the equal of the three experts you named: a poster who called himself 'Kwok."

[PJ]

There was one more who never made it over here to SPCNET Forum, but at the Yushy Jin Yong Forums, he was every bit the equal of the three experts you named: a poster who called himself 'Kwok."

Unfortunately I could not find any of his writings either. Sad.