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Thread: For the nth time, How would you rank the Greats?

  1. #81
    Senior Member duguxiaojing's Avatar
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    But it has been productive discussion, lot of good points brought up. I am going to attempt to write a few words about Laviathan's analysis, in hopes of getting his attention to write a few more words out of his semi-retirement.
    Nice...

    I have thought that if one day I would have enough knowledge to discuss wuxia seriously with these 2 fine experts, then I will not have been a wuxia fan in vain.
    LoL. Sounds like something YG would have said if u replaced parts " I would have enough knowledge to discuss wuxia seriously with these 2 fine experts" with being buried beside dugu, meeting HYS and protecting 7Gong's body and then replace "wuxia fan" with lived my life in vain.

    There was one more who never made it over here to SPCNET Forum, but at the Yushy Jin Yong Forums, he was every bit the equal of the three experts you named: a poster who called himself 'Kwok."
    hmm...actually i heard alot of people mention him, read that translation he did with Moin...but unfortunatly ive read only one post IIRC made by him in another forum where he posted something about YG also having a sleeve to fight with.
    wow..04-08....4 years just like that..time flies..

  2. #82
    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    On numerous occasions, I had previously defended the martial arts quality of LOCH/ROCH Greats alongside Laviathan and Athena. I believed that the difference between DGSD elites and the Greats aren't that big. My views have changed slightly. I still believe the difference is not *that* big. However, there's just too much evidence to support that DGSD elites are more powerful than the Greats, while the Greats are more refined martial artists. I do not wish to argue against where the bulk of evidence is.

    Here is what Lav wrote:

    When the Ming Cult trio advanced into the Diamond Taming Demon Circle, they had to stop at somewhat more than one zhang (1 zhang is about 3,5 meters) distance with the monks. From this distance, Yin Tianzheng launched palm strikes at Dunan, which the latter countered with Sumeru Mountain Palm. The two of them kept exchanging strokes, with Yin Tianzheng going back and forth. The distance was still more 3,5 meters to 4 meters.
    斗到一顿饭时分,张无忌等三人已将索圈压得缩小了丈许圆径。然而三僧的索圈压小,抗力越强,三人每攻前一步,便比前要多花几倍力气。

    I interpret this a bit differently: Zhang Wuji et al had reduced the circle's diameter by 10 feet, not to 10 feet. Even if the circle's diameter was reduced to 10 feet, that is only the distance within the circle. I assume Zhang Wuji et al were outside the circle fighting, so that doesn't tell us about the distance between the fighters, which would make more sense now that the distance is unspecified, because Zhang Wuji (and Yideng and GWM) should be able to project his energy to greater distance than his 2 grandfather and Yang Xiao.

    Another thing I want to say is this: Jin Yong is not 100% consistent with his numbers across the novels. There must be thousands of quantatative descriptions throughout his 10+ novels, and it would be impossible to keep all of them consistent. If we wanted to, we can find evidence to go against any popular theory. For example, we can find evidence that Xiang Wentian of XAJH or Bai Zizai of XKX is as good as the Greats, due to the description of their feats. However I believe we should look for the MAJORITY of evidence, and for our discussion, I believe the majority of evidence supports the notion that DGSD elites are more powerful than the Greats. I'm sure there exists evidence to suggest that the Greats are equal to or better than DGSD elites, but those would be in the minority, and I consider those to be Jin Yong's inconsistencies.

    As for danshu's post, I completely agree with his assessment:

    And the reason, despite my advocating for the devil, that I am of the "DGSD is more powerful than LOCH/ROCH" camp is because I believe author intention must be taken into account. PJ has already mentioned this, and dammit I can't remember where I read this, but I think it was JY saying that DGSD had the most fanciful, fantastic martial arts descriptions of all his novels, the intention being to show that "Each of the eight categories of supernatural beings has its own character and special magical skills, but although they are living outside of the space of human beings they do fully experience the joy and grief of this our dusty world." (jin yong, DGSD foreward)

    This novel has heavy Buddhist themes of karma; extremely powerful characters like TSTL and LQS, JMZ, WYZ, MRF, etc. are destroyed, lose their skills, live in misery, or other. Extremely weak characters like DY and XZ are righteous nontheless and instantly gain powerful skills. Giving DGSD characters ridiculously powerful skills allows Jin Yong to highlight the themes he wished to explore.
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen
    I think that's the major difference between Zhang Wuji and Xiao Feng. Zhang Wuji will never reach his full potential while Xiao Feng constantly exceeded his full potential.
    XF no doubt exceeds his full potential. For ZWJ, I think SOMEDAY he would be able to reach his full potential. Out of ALL THE GREATS, ZWJ has the least experience being only at 20 years old. He just started fighting when he was around this age throughout the story.

    In terms of potential..., I personally (I agree with Athena) think ZWJ exceeds XF.

  4. #84
    Senior Member Exodus's Avatar
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    I really doubt that ZWJ could get any better besides maybe that his internal energy will get purer. Another thing is that ZWJ is not a fighter so he will probably not use his time to advance on his martial arts.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    In the past, I only intended to raise the possibility that the Trilogy Greats were (almost) as good as the DGSD 4 Elites. Personally, I believe the gap between Condor Trilogy Greats v.s. DGSD 4 elites (young and old Xiao, old Murong and Jiumozhi) is relatively small.
    The Trilogy Greats (minus Guo Jing, Yang Guo and Zhang Wuji) reached their top martial arts level only in ROCH but by that time they were also much older than Xiao Yuanshan and Murong Bo (almost 15 till 30 years older than old Xiao and old Murong).
    Their martial arts level (of the old Greats) in ROCH might be at same level of Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo, etc. (or perhaps even a bit higher). However, their bodies were also old and their vigour was declining. So, that is why I think if they were to fight for instance Xiao Yuanshan against Qiu Qianren, after an intense fight Xiao Yuanshan will win because Qiu's physical body isn't that strong anymore. Xiao Yuanshan is only 60, while Qiu is 90+.
    However, when we look at Guo Jing, Yang Guo and Zhang Wuji, things look a bit different. These three were young and at a practically similar level as the DGSD 4 Elites.

    However, the original Greats had their own pride and a more admirable martial arts experts conduct. None of them stooped as low to steal other people's manuals (Huang Yaoshi was interested in Jiuyin but in the end he did not study it, the only one who did more or less stooped that low was Ouyang Feng, but that is a different story). Jiumozhi, Xiao Yuanshan and Murong Bo pushed themselves to hard and suffered from all sorts of illnesses. They probably have reached the levels of the post 16 years Greats, Zhang Sanfeng, Wang Chongyang prior to his death, etc. But they did not follow the "right" way.
    I do rank the DGSD elites (Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan a bit higher than the old Greats, Zhang Sanfeng, etc. of the Trilogy. However, I do have some reservations to writing Guo Jing, Yang Guo and Zhang Wuji as weaker than the DGSD 4 Elites.

    Furthermore, the topic of creating imprints in stone tiles has been addressed so many times.
    But not being able to leave imprints in stone tiles was abbot Tianming's opinion. We know that at least two other experts have been able to leave imprints in tiles or scrape away imprints. One is Xiao Feng, one is Xiang Wentian.

    Besides, in chapter 23 of HSDS we can read this: [大院子中到處都有激烈戰斗的遺跡,地下青石板上,旁邊樹枝干上、圍牆石壁上,留著不少兵刃砍斬、拳掌劈擊的 印記。到處濺滿了血漬,可見那一場拚斗實是慘烈异常。地下還有許多深淺的腳印,乃是高手比拚內 力時所留下。]
    In the main courtyard there were remnants of intense fights. On the stone tiles, trees and stone walls were numerous traces of weapon hacks, fist and palm imprints. There was blood splattered everywhere, it seemed that the battles were most horrific. On the ground there were deep feet imprints left behind by experts who were competing internal energies.
    Of course, as someone pointed out before trees cannot grow out of stone tiles and are probably planted into dirt. But everyone can leave deep imprints in dirt, even I can do it. And I don't know any martial arts. Why would the author write something that doesn't wow anyone? Leaving imprints in dirt, if I use enough force even a skinny stick person like me can leave relatively deep imprints in earth.
    So, personally I think it is safe to assume that those Shaolin experts and warriors of the Prince of Ruyang left imprints in stone tiles too. And don't tell me that both the experts of Prince Ruyang and those Shaolin monks wore heavy iron buckets filled with water when they engaged each other in mortal combat.
    Last edited by Athena; 04-07-06 at 08:02 PM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  6. #86
    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena
    In the past, I only intended to raise the possibility that the Trilogy Greats were (almost) as good as the DGSD 4 Elites. Personally, I believe the gap between Condor Trilogy Greats v.s. DGSD 4 elites (young and old Xiao, old Murong and Jiumozhi) is relatively small.
    The Trilogy Greats (minus Guo Jing, Yang Guo and Zhang Wuji) reached their top martial arts level only in ROCH but by that time they were also much older than Xiao Yuanshan and Murong Bo (almost 15 till 30 years older than old Xiao and old Murong).
    Their martial arts level (of the old Greats) in ROCH might be at same level of Xiao Yuanshan, Murong Bo, etc. (or perhaps even a bit higher). However, their bodies were also old and their vigour was declining. So, that is why I think if they were to fight for instance Xiao Yuanshan against Qiu Qianren, after an intense fight Xiao Yuanshan will win because Qiu's physical body isn't that strong anymore. Xiao Yuanshan is only 60, while Qiu is 90+.
    However, when we look at Guo Jing, Yang Guo and Zhang Wuji, things look a bit different. These three were young and at a practically similar level as the DGSD 4 Elites.

    However, the original Greats had their own pride and a more admirable martial arts experts conduct. None of them stooped as low to steal other people's manuals (Huang Yaoshi was interested in Jiuyin but in the end he did not study it, the only one who did more or less stooped that low was Ouyang Feng, but that is a different story). Jiumozhi, Xiao Yuanshan and Murong Bo pushed themselves to hard and suffered from all sorts of illnesses. They probably have reached the levels of the post 16 years Greats, Zhang Sanfeng, Wang Chongyang prior to his death, etc. But they did not follow the "right" way.
    I do rank the DGSD elites (Xiao Feng, Xiao Yuanshan a bit higher than the old Greats, Zhang Sanfeng, etc. of the Trilogy. However, I do have some reservations to writing Guo Jing, Yang Guo and Zhang Wuji as weaker than the DGSD 4 Elites.

    Furthermore, the topic of creating imprints in stone tiles has been addressed so many times.
    But not being able to leave imprints in stone tiles was abbot Tianming's opinion. We know that at least two other experts have been able to leave imprints in tiles or scrape away imprints. One is Xiao Feng, one is Xiang Wentian.

    Besides, in chapter 23 of HSDS we can read this: [大院子中到處都有激烈戰斗的遺跡,地下青石板上,旁邊樹枝干上、圍牆石壁上,留著不少兵刃砍斬、拳掌劈擊的 印記。到處濺滿了血漬,可見那一場拚斗實是慘烈异常。地下還有許多深淺的腳印,乃是高手比拚內 力時所留下。]
    In the main courtyard there were remnants of intense fights. On the stone tiles, trees and stone walls were numerous traces of weapon hacks, fist and palm imprints. There was blood splattered everywhere, it seemed that the battles were most horrific. On the ground there were deep feet imprints left behind by experts who were competing internal energies.
    Of course, as someone pointed out before trees cannot grow out of stone tiles and are probably planted into dirt. But everyone can leave deep imprints in dirt, even I can do it. And I don't know any martial arts. Why would the author write something that doesn't wow anyone? Leaving imprints in dirt, if I use enough force even a skinny stick person like me can leave relatively deep imprints in earth.
    So, personally I think it is safe to assume that those Shaolin experts and warriors of the Prince of Ruyang left imprints in stone tiles too. And don't tell me that both the experts of Prince Ruyang and those Shaolin monks wore heav iron buckets when they engaged each other in mortal combat.
    Some questions:
    1) In the new 3rd edition of DGSD, did JY left the part where QF tried to compete with his father with feats of running across the plains, and at that parting, told XYS that he (QF) might match him in 3 years etc?

    2) The except that you have is more impressive in that it is talking about palm prints on the stone walls. Do we even have this feat on other novels?

    Han Solo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exodus
    I really doubt that ZWJ could get any better besides maybe that his internal energy will get purer. Another thing is that ZWJ is not a fighter so he will probably not use his time to advance on his martial arts.
    NOPE..... Externally, he may only get better by getting more experience; however, internally ZWJ's increase in internal should be constant. While in time ZWJ's 9 Yang Real Chi will get purier, it would also increase. 9 Yang and 9 Yin are both Daoism internals. ZBT said that his brother (WCY)'s daoism kung fu HAS NO LIMIT IN INCREASE. It was stated later that 9 Yin is like QZ internal except at a higher level. Therefore, I think it's safe to presume that 9 Yang and 9 Yin (both Dao) have unlimited growth. Daoism internals are described as "soft" by the book.
    Last edited by Whsie; 04-07-06 at 06:47 PM.

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    And now that Athena mentioned it. If XYS, MRB, JMZ (the exception is XF) had properly studied the martial arts, then their levels wouldn't be as high. If you look at the original 5 Greats, they studied it the proper way. And a few, like OYF, WCY, and HYS invented their own martial arts. In my opinion, if you can invent your own marial art and reach the great level, you're a genius. Only YG out of the younger ones was able to do this. JMZ obviously had Xiao Wu Xian Gong (stolen). MRB had martial arts his faimly passed to him and other arts(these other arts usually are stolen). XYS had some Shaolin (stolen). As in "stealing", I mean to take without permission, not neccesicary practicing a martial art invented by someone else. Only XF practiced the proper way (XL28Z from Gai Bang. Shaolin internal and some 72 arts from Xuan Cu).

  9. #89
    Senior Member Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Han Solo
    Some questions:
    1) In the new 3rd edition of DGSD, did JY left the part where QF tried to compete with his father with feats of running across the plains, and at that parting, told XYS that he (QF) might match him in 3 years etc?

    2) The except that you have is more impressive in that it is talking about palm prints on the stone walls. Do we even have this feat on other novels?

    Han Solo
    1. That part is gone.
    2. I have to think about that one and check some novels to make sure.
    But mind you, those palm and fist prints and even imprints in stone tiles were left behind by Shaolin monks and Prince Ruyang's warriors who might not even be for example Ming Cult guardian lord levels.
    Last edited by Athena; 04-07-06 at 09:17 PM.
    So huge, so hopeless, to conceive
    As these that twice befell
    Parting is all we know of heaven
    And all we need of hell.

    Emily Dickinson (1830-1886)

  10. #90
    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena
    1. That part is gone.
    2. I have to think about that one and check some novels to make sure.
    But mind you, those palm and fist prints and even imprints in stone tiles were left behind by Shaolin monks and Prince Ruyang's warriors who might not even be for example Ming Cult guardian lord levels.
    1) Shame.
    2) The question now would be what kind of imprints are we talking about. Bloody palm prints, light imprints or deep imprints?

    Looking back at other novels, the more famous examples would be
    a) LCY's writing on a wall, and that Cheun Zhen's Qiu belief that the greats being not able to write on a rock
    b) SOD's Shaolin abbot's Fan Zhen writing on a wooden surface
    c) ?? QF's father writing on a rock when they are ambushing him.

    Han SOlo

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    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    I'm wondering...to those who say that YG would be better than GJ because he was a bag of tricks whereas GJ was simple-minded, of all the fights GJ was in from LOCH to ROCH, was there ever one where he fell to a trick? Keep in mind that especially in LOCH, he fought people who were famous for trickery (apart from Hou Tonghai, all of them were) and he was only a young inexperienced 18~20 years old.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide
    I'm wondering...to those who say that YG would be better than GJ because he was a bag of tricks whereas GJ was simple-minded, of all the fights GJ was in from LOCH to ROCH, was there ever one where he fell to a trick? Keep in mind that especially in LOCH, he fought people who were famous for trickery (apart from Hou Tonghai, all of them were) and he was only a young inexperienced 18~20 years old.
    Indeed. It was a young Gwok Jing who came up with the idea of silencing the Hong Lung 18 Palms so that he could take advantage of Mui Chiu Fung's blindness to defeat her when he was no match for her straight up. It was also Gwok Jing who, without much formal Cheun Jen Sect martial arts training, was able to figure out the workings of the 7 Stars Big Dipper Formation all by himself. It was also Gwok Jing who figured out how to incorporate elements of the 9 Yum Jen Ging into the Hong Lung 18 Palms.

    Gwok Jing might not have been especially bright in the conventional sense, but his instincts for learning and improving martial arts and winning fights was dead on.

  13. #93
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    In the fight on Huasan (the 2nd Huasan tournament), HYS, the master of tricks, had to use every trick he knew just to regain the balance, as GJ was holding the advantage initially. After HYS finally got it, he thought to himself "That was embarassing!". When HYS used his Five Phases Palms on GJ (the new palm technique he intended to use on the other Greats), which is said to be the flashiest and trickiest technique HYS possessed, GJ was put at a great disadvantage and was very dizzy, but he never fell until the end of the fight (300 stances reached).

    A even better example of GJ's fighting instinct is the very first big fight he got before he left Mongolia, when he was attacked by the Four Yellow River Ghosts: http://www.wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin...ok_1/chapter_6

    That was when he only had 2 years of inner energy training by Ma Yue and basic techniques from the 6 Freaks, and a naive 18 year old who had never left Mongolia before.

    I don't think YG's tricks would do much against a mature GJ who had led Xiangyang army against the Mongolians for decades.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

    "I disapprove of what I say, but I will defend to the death my right to say it."

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    In the fight of YG vs Golden wheel monk, a life and death fight, I don't remember YG using any tricks. The sad palm he used to strike Golden wheel wasn't intended to be a trick and was a characteristic of the palm. Hence YG was losing and about to die, yet he didnt use any trick to save his butt (and he wanted to live)...why not? Couldn't think of one? Or too much concentration on fighting in a great vs great fight?

    In a fight vs GJ, would YG even bother to use trickery even when he's about to die to GJ's XL18Z? Is JLFW harder to trick than GJ?

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    Senior Member yittz's Avatar
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    With regards to silent palms, I think YG would have done that too. Its more a reactive trick rather than proactive trickery YG uses. Thinking and figuring out QZ7 big dipper shows his martial arts intelligence not his ability to use/counter trickery in battle, in fact his engrossing in 9Yin nearly killed him and HR at beggar clan meeting.

    Examples of GJ falling to trickery or lack of use:
    -HR sealing GJ's pressure points when GJ was about to chop GF's arm off
    -Nearly dying at the Mongol camp rescueing Wu brothers
    -Not taking advantage of Golden wheel at hero's meeting
    -Fighting OYF for HR's hand (he should have jumped around like OYK, would have won easily)

    I know they are bad examples, but would YG fare better in those situations?

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    Member Raden Wijaya's Avatar
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    That's the different, YG would use dirty tackle while GJ only use clean tackle (Welcome World Cup 2006 )
    When you feel like you're the POOREST man in the world ....
    COUNT your BLESSING, then suddenly you are one of the RICHEST man in the universe!

  17. #97
    Senior Member Candide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    Examples of GJ falling to trickery or lack of use:
    -HR sealing GJ's pressure points when GJ was about to chop GF's arm off
    -Nearly dying at the Mongol camp rescueing Wu brothers
    -Not taking advantage of Golden wheel at hero's meeting
    -Fighting OYF for HR's hand (he should have jumped around like OYK, would have won easily)
    - Err, she's his beloved and trusted wife. It's unfair to criticize him for that. If XLN suddenly attacked Yang Guo from behind and sealed his accupoint while YG was scolding their daughter, do you think YG would be able to react? I doubt it. Nobody could.

    - If YG hadn't betrayed him, he wouldn't have been injured. Not his fault. If YG had followed the plan, both would've been out of there easily. If the situation were reversed and a Great-level YG was there (i.e YG at the end of ROCH) with a young GJ, I bet both would get out easily because GJ would never betray him.

    - What do you mean? What golden wheel? The GWM didn't use any wheel when fighting GJ. If you mean he didn't take advantage of GWM's state after the palm clash, then that's unfair since nobody knew or could ever guess that the GWM was almost injured afterwards, save the GWM himself and of course JY.

    - He did what he does best: fight. Jumping around and not fighting aren't what he was used to. I bet OYF would knock him down easily if he tried that. If YG was in that position, he would also do what he does best: jumping around and dodging OYF's attacks just like OYK did to HQG. However, YG would probably get knocked down like GJ and OYK, but YG might lose since he doesn't know Mongolian wrestling like GJ did which was the key to his win in that fight*.

    * for those who don't know, GJ and OYK were both falling down when GJ grabbed OYK's legs, twisted in mid-air, used an advanced Mongolian wrestling trick, threw OYK down and used the counter force to jump up a nearby tree branch. That's something only GJ could do.
    "Anything you can't say NO to is your MASTER, and you are its SLAVE."

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    Quote Originally Posted by yittz
    With regards to silent palms, I think YG would have done that too. Its more a reactive trick rather than proactive trickery YG uses. Thinking and figuring out QZ7 big dipper shows his martial arts intelligence not his ability to use/counter trickery in battle, in fact his engrossing in 9Yin nearly killed him and HR at beggar clan meeting.

    Examples of GJ falling to trickery or lack of use:
    -HR sealing GJ's pressure points when GJ was about to chop GF's arm off
    -Nearly dying at the Mongol camp rescueing Wu brothers
    -Not taking advantage of Golden wheel at hero's meeting
    -Fighting OYF for HR's hand (he should have jumped around like OYK, would have won easily)

    I know they are bad examples, but would YG fare better in those situations?
    Your right, those are horrible examples. 1. GJ wouldn't hurt his wife.... and second he didn't respond because she is his wife 2. What can you expect? Surrounded by an army? Besides, he could have got away if YG hadn't jumped back in the crowd. 3. Taking advantage of JLFW at that place would ruin his reputation.

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    Senior Member PJ's Avatar
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    I have found an example in HSDS which indicates that fighters at Yin Tianzheng's level are in fact not capable of projecting Long Distance Attacks to 10 feet.

    Chapter 20, Song Yuanqiao and Yin Tianzheng were simulating a fight within a range of 10 feet. Their energies could not reach each other from this distance, so they were only comparing each other's moves.

    依照拳法,宋远桥必当抢步上前,伸臂出击,哪知他伸臂出击是一点不错,却没抢步上前,这拳打出,竟和殷天正 的身子相距一丈有余。 殷天正一惊:“难道他武当拳术如此厉害,竟已练成了隔山打牛的神功?”当下不敢怠慢,运起内劲,右掌挥出, 抵挡他的拳力。不料这一掌挥出,前面空空荡荡,并未接到甚么劲力
    忽见柳荫下两个小孩子在哀哀痛哭,瞧模样正是武敦儒、武修文兄弟。郭芙大声叫道:「喂,你们在干甚麽?」武 修文回头见是郭芙,哭道:「我们在哭,你不见麽?」

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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    I have found an example in HSDS which indicates that fighters at Yin Tianzheng's level are in fact not capable of projecting Long Distance Attacks to 10 feet.

    Chapter 20, Song Yuanqiao and Yin Tianzheng were simulating a fight within a range of 10 feet. Their energies could not reach each other from this distance, so they were only comparing each other's moves.

    依照拳法,宋远桥必当抢步上前,伸臂出击,哪知他伸臂出击是一点不错,却没抢步上前,这拳打出,竟和殷天正 的身子相距一丈有余。 殷天正一惊:“难道他武当拳术如此厉害,竟已练成了隔山打牛的神功?”当下不敢怠慢,运起内劲,右掌挥出, 抵挡他的拳力。不料这一掌挥出,前面空空荡荡,并未接到甚么劲力
    Well, what can you expect? They're probably first class in the DSGS era.

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