For the nth time, How would you rank the Greats?

[Ken Cheng]

lol, but we did go through this a hundred times. Somehow someway we always change the topic of a thread to the DSGS and Trilogy comparision.

It used to be "Gwok Jing vs. Yeung Gor," but that topic isn't as popular now as it once was.

[PJ]

About 5 years ago, most people on this forum and on the other major English Jin Yong forum were of the opinion that DGSD > Trilogy.

Then, something happened that changed the shape of wuxia fiction discussion forever. And that would be the arrival of Laviathan and Athena. Together, they converted the once pro-DGSD population to how it is now.

Right, Ken?

[Whsie]

About 5 years ago, most people on this forum and on the other major English Jin Yong forum were of the opinion that DGSD > Trilogy.

Then, something happened that changed the shape of wuxia fiction discussion forever. And that would be the arrival of Laviathan and Athena. Together, they converted the once pro-DGSD population to how it is now.

Right, Ken?

5 years ago......., that's way too long ago. It's not just "not too long ago". But if you really think about it, it makes sense.

[PJ]

5 years ago......., that's way too long ago. It's not just "not too long ago". But if you really think about it, it makes sense.

Well, actually, until about 2 years ago, most people were still convinced that DGSD > Trilogy. You only have to dig out some of the old posts to see that. For example look at the second phase of MARTIAL ARTS COMPARISON BETWEEN THE DGSD ERA AND LOCH/ROCH ERAS, and you'll see that some readers used to think that Xiao Feng could take on 4 Greats at the same time while Guo Jing would not last 20 stances against Xiao Feng.

I said 5 years ago because.... that's when Lav and Athena started appearing, I think. It still took them a few years to spread their philosophy to the masses, and finally turn the tide around.

[Extremer88]

and you'll see that some readers used to think that Xiao Feng could take on 4 Greats at the same time while Guo Jing would not last 20 stances against Xiao Feng.

OMG, that's too far-fetched.

[Dennis Chen]

Most everyone had a very, very low opinion of Zhang Wuji too.

[yittz]

I think it was mainly because we thought the likes of Duan Yan Qing and Ben generation monks were at the level of or above Yi Deng. And Xiao Feng can whip them pretty easily so...

Also thought MRF was greats level. (he reminds me of HYS)

[Whsie]

Well, actually, until about 2 years ago, most people were still convinced that DGSD > Trilogy. You only have to dig out some of the old posts to see that. For example look at the second phase of MARTIAL ARTS COMPARISON BETWEEN THE DGSD ERA AND LOCH/ROCH ERAS, and you'll see that some readers used to think that Xiao Feng could take on 4 Greats at the same time while Guo Jing would not last 20 stances against Xiao Feng.

I said 5 years ago because.... that's when Lav and Athena started appearing, I think. It still took them a few years to spread their philosophy to the masses, and finally turn the tide around.

That explains it. I was just looking over Martial arts comparision between DSGS Era and LOCH/ROCH eras from the newest to 19th which is like back in october. And you guys seem to be agreeing that DSGS and Trilogy Greats are about =.

And XF taking on 4 Greats is WAY out of hand.

[Whsie]

Most everyone had a very, very low opinion of Zhang Wuji too.

On his level? That, I'm a little suprised because of how strong his internal was described.

There's no physical evidence in the books that prove XF's XL28Z was stronger (in terms of power) than H7G's (in matter of fact, there is actual evidence that H7G's should be stronger); however, most people think XL28Z is stronger in terms of power because of how much JY praises and describes the power of it.

In the same case, 9 Yang Shen gong was described incredibly powerful.

[Whsie]

I think it was mainly because we thought the likes of Duan Yan Qing and Ben generation monks were at the level of or above Yi Deng. And Xiao Feng can whip them pretty easily so...

Also thought MRF was greats level. (he reminds me of HYS)

Well...., MRF got his butt literally destroyed.

I'm not saying anything particular, but I'm just curious why you guys have this thought. When I first joined the forum, I have only slighty different thoughts then what it is today.

The only thought probably different is that XF and YG's internal are = and one level below GJ's.

[Extremer88]

Also thought MRF was greats level. (he reminds me of HYS)

When you see MRF fight, it was pretty to watch because of his fancyful and graceful moves, but in actual-combat, he's weak.

[PJ]

By the way, nowadays the Ultimate Ranking by Lav is almost universally accepted (generally speaking, readers might not agree with every rank, but most of them are accepted). HOWEVER, when that list was first introduced to the forums about 3 or 4 years ago, it caused so much controversy and disagreement because people were seeing for the first time the Greats ranked near Xiao Feng's level, and it was like "whoa, what do you mean Guo Jing isn't much weaker than Xiao Feng? We've been led to believe the opposite all our lives."

Good times

[PJ]

There's no physical evidence in the books that prove XF's XL28Z was stronger (in terms of power) than H7G's (in matter of fact, there is actual evidence that H7G's should be stronger);

Not sure what you mean. Xiao Feng has proven several times to be able to injure a weaker opponent from a distance of 20+ feet away, while no one in the Trilogy has positively demonstrated this. Athena suggested that perhaps Yang Guo and Huang Yaoshi's exchange could be proof that they can injure Yin Kexi et al from 20+ feet away, but frankly I don't think that is the case. No other Great has shown the ability to do this, while in DGSD at least Xiao Feng, Murong Bo, and Li Qiushui have shown this. This tells me that DGSD elites cannot possibly be weaker than the Greats, only better.

[yittz]

I have to say "I am not happy about being shown the truth by Laviathon" Prefer to live in the dreamworld where DGSD greats>>trilogy greats.

Didnt analyse the text closely. Just went with the feeling the DGSD fighters kicked ***. I mean what XF did in the manor. And overawed by the fighters even notches above (DY, XZ, Sweeper, XYelders).

[danshu_]

I have to say "I am not happy about being shown the truth by Laviathon" Prefer to live in the dreamworld where DGSD greats>>trilogy greats.

Didnt analyse the text closely. Just went with the feeling the DGSD fighters kicked ***. I mean what XF did in the manor. And overawed by the fighters even notches above (DY, XZ, Sweeper, XYelders).

While I think DGSD greats > LOCH/ROCH greats (not by a huge margin though), I also think JY exagerrated his descriptions of the martial arts in DGSD, making them seem more powerful at first glance than they actually are (again in order to highlight his themes). So that would be why people get that impression at first, then alter their opinion upon closer analysis.

[Whsie]

Yep, I found some disagreement. I'll try it out. I don't think I've did it before.

1. Sweeper Monk
2. Xuzhu (approx 250 years of internal, XL28Z/Dog Beat, Xiao Yiao), Demonic
3. GJ, YG, Z3F, ZWJ, Huang S
4. Xiao Yiao 3 elders, WCY (HS was above and HS is suppose to have achieve a higher level), ZBT, XYS,XF,MRB
5. JLFW, JMZ, 4 Greats
6. DFBB, You Tan Zhi, QQR, XLN (fine, I'll put her, but only because of Jade Maiden).
7. Abbot Xuan, Ben, Reverend Kongjian, 3 Du generation. Duan faimly ( no DY), Ding Chencho.
8. HuZD, Xuamming elders, the other 3 Kong zhi, wen, LHC (with YJJ), 2 Demons, Feng Ching Yang, RWX, YLQ (in the HSDS time period).
9. Kong xin, Miejue, the Four Guardian Lords of the Ming Cult, 7 Heros of Wudang, Huang Rong.
And..., everything else is the same.

Feel free to tell me what you think.

[Whsie]

Not sure what you mean. Xiao Feng has proven several times to be able to injure a weaker opponent from a distance of 20+ feet away, while no one in the Trilogy has positively demonstrated this. Athena suggested that perhaps Yang Guo and Huang Yaoshi's exchange could be proof that they can injure Yin Kexi et al from 20+ feet away, but frankly I don't think that is the case. No other Great has shown the ability to do this, while in DGSD at least Xiao Feng, Murong Bo, and Li Qiushui have shown this. This tells me that DGSD elites cannot possibly be weaker than the Greats, only better.

What I meant by that quote is that there is actual evidence that the one H7G uses CAN be better if trained to the same level as XF. Like if H7G and XF has the exact same training and the exact same experience, etc, than H7G's should be stronger.
As we know, H7G isn't that far from XF.
The 3rd edition now states that XF and XZ worked together to get the redundant parts and take the good parts and added them in the first 18, making the kung fu overall as a whole stronger than before.

[PJ]

What I meant by that quote is that there is actual evidence that the one H7G uses CAN be better if trained to the same level as XF. Like if H7G and XF has the exact same training and the exact same experience, etc, than H7G's should be stronger.

I highly doubt Hong Qigong could ever reach Xiao Feng's greatness even if they trained exactly the same way.

There is simply *no one* in the Jin Yong universe worthy of matching Xiao Feng's raw talent. He didn't learn anything that fancy, and yet he is much better than people twice his age who trained in more advanced arts. Simply stated, it is Jin Yong's intention to make Xiao Feng the greatest born undefeated warrior under his pen, and no one can take that away from him.

The 3rd edition now states that XF and XZ worked together to get the redundant parts and take the good parts and added them in the first 18, making the kung fu overall as a whole stronger than before.

Yes, but we don't know if the art deterioated by the time it got to Hong Qigong.

[Whsie]

I highly doubt Hong Qigong could ever reach Xiao Feng's greatness even if they trained exactly the same way.

There is simply *no one* in the Jin Yong universe worthy of matching Xiao Feng's raw talent. He didn't learn anything that fancy, and yet he is much better than people twice his age who trained in more advanced arts. Simply stated, it is Jin Yong's intention to make Xiao Feng the greatest born undefeated warrior under his pen, and no one can take that away from him.



Yes, but we don't know if the art deterioated by the time it got to Hong Qigong.

No, no, I wasn't questioning his raw talent. I was just giving a example if those 2 are exactly at the same level.

That......, may be the exception.

[PJ]

No, no, I wasn't questioning his raw talent. I was just giving a example if those 2 are exactly at the same level.

That......, may be the exception.

Well, if Xiao Feng has more affinity for pure yang-based martial arts than Hong Qigong and they trained the same way, then in all likelihood don't you think that Xiao Feng would come out ahead of Hong Qigong??