Xiao Feng/Ah Zhu...greatest hero..greatest love

[hardcases]

I have to say the greatest hero is XF and greatest love is that of Xiao Feng and Ah Zhu. I’ve read a few comments on XF and wanted to address them here.

-XF is gay or he looks down on women because he doesn’t talk to them- not true. In the book, XF only hangs out with men who drink, eat, and talk loud like him. That’s why he’s not so compatible with Miss Ma’s husband. So we can plausibly conclude that XF doesn’t talk to women because they’re not crude enough for him.

-XF is too aggressive and too revengeful-not really. XF is just bright, quick and decisive. He only killed people out of necessity, like when he was at the Manor. He always felt bad long after for having caused so many deaths, even though it wasn’t his fault. He is brave and forgiving—stabbed himself to save the lives of the 4 elders, even though they plotted against him. He is noble—resigned as leader of Beggar Clan so there wouldn’t be internal conflicts, even though he still had many loyal followers. He tried to save the Beggar Clan people when they were poisoned, and yes, that’s right after they destroyed everything he had. He’s not too revengeful—only wanted Big Brother and planed to forgive everyone else. He showed compassion—hesitated to ask the monk for BB (one that lost kungfu while practicing medicine) because he was afraid that the monk would die too. Even the sweeper monk commented on XF’s nobleness when he refused to conspire with Murongbok against the Song. Murongbok promised that XF would get his revenge if XF agrees with the plot against the Song. If personal revenge were all that XF was after, he would have agreed since it was unclear whether he and his dad could’ve taken out the other 3. This illustrates XF’s efforts and desires to bring peace long before his final deed. He put the people of two countries before himself, even when both sides didn’t appreciate and hated him. At least GJ had the Song people to back him up and praised him a hero. This point further illustrates XF’s noble character—he secretly helped others without wanting any kind of rewards. People keep focusing on the number of people XF killed and hence, accusing him of being aggressive. This overlooks the circumstances under which he was in and noble deeds that he did (yes, even before the final sacrifice).

XF’s death is meaningless- totally not true (this has been discussed elsewhere). XF died for two reasons, peace and love. Even when the emperor agreed to retreat, he still accused XF of betraying Liao for the riches from Song dynasty. XF had asked Yelu Hongji not to go to war many times before, but he always thought XF had an ulterior motive. XF’s death showed the emperor his aspiration for peace and people’s well-being. XF also died because of love. Actually, XF died with AZ that rainy night. Yet, he had to live in hopelessness and desolation. Why? Because he had to keep his promise to her. Because he had to live to find the truth, so that her death would not be in vain. And because he had to die a meaningfully death. Living in desolation—to fulfill a greater good—was heroic on its own. He died a perfect death, one that brought peace and one that brought him to his beloved Ah Chu.

One more thing that’s needed to be said about XF. Unlike any other protagonists in JY novels that I’ve read, only XF surpassed social, cultural, and racial discriminations. (YG passed social and cultural discriminations when he decided to marry his teacher.) After knowing his origins, XF could have sided with the Kitan against the Song. This inclination was natural because race was such a big factor in one’s identity, but also because XF held high position in Liao and was denounced in Song. Yet, XF loved both Song and Liao people. Of course, we wouldn’t know what YG and GJ would have done in this circumstance. But we definitely know that XF’s decision to protect both race shows his ability to embrace and accept people of all background. All that said, XF is indeed the greatest hero in JY universe.

Now let’s talk about XF and AZ's undying love.
Let’s begin with XF. Before he got kicked out of Beggar Clan, he got power, fame, and women-Miss Ma (who is supposed to be extremely beautiful) and possibly others as well. Yet, he never paid attention to any of them, not even WYY. He didn’t even notice Ah Zhu and only saved her because he was heroic, arrogant, and guilty (she was injured partly because of him). And when he was at his worst moments, she was there waiting for him 5 days and nights. Interestingly, although he didn’t love her, just hearing her voice lifted his spirit when he was hurt and angry. This shows how much XF really needed AZ as a friend and lover. When he found out that he was a Kitan, it was her that kept him alive. The more time spent with AZ and seeing how kind she was, the deeper XF fell for her. But he never had the courage to tell her because he was new to this love stuff and because he still felt ashamed about his origins. His world changed after she told him that if he raised horses, she could raise sheep (or something like that). He was willing to give up wulin for her. Granted, he had already lost all the fame and power at that time. But this doesn’t change his devotion for her. AZ suggested that after they find the truth, they should exonerate him in public. But he said there was no need, all he wanted was to raise sheep with her. He stayed with the despicable Ah Zhi only to fulfill his promise to her. Yelu Hongji gave him thousands of girls, but the only girl in his heart was Ah Zhu. So no, his love for her was not out of guilt. He loved her because she was kind and smart, the only one that could make him laugh, the only one that could make him feel like a somebody. He kept longing for her because there’s no one else perfect for him, the way that she was.

Now discussing Ah Zhu. Even XF didn’t understand why a girl like AZ loved a guy like him. She’s the beloved maid in the Murong family, only 17, smart, pretty, talented (her ability to disguise), and most of all, kind. He’s 31, a crude beggar, a Kitan, and didn’t have an ounce of romance in him. Yet, he was the man of her dream. He became her hero the moment he sacrificed to save the 4 elders. She admired his courage and compassion when he stood besides her at the Manor. And because of this, she traveled hundreds of miles and left the life she knew, just to be with him—only to let him go.
Loving XF the way she did, she had no other choice but to leave him. Letting her father die was not an option. But she loved XF too much see him unhappy—if he decided to forgo his revenge for her—or dead—if he chose otherwise. She never wanted to leave him, because he would be alone. But she decided to save him, from the Dali people, from his internal conflicts.

XF and AZ. They never knew love until they found each other. He saved her life, she saved his. All they ever wanted was to live a simple life with horses and sheep. But fate was too cruel and took her away. Their story evolved from respect and admiration to understanding and love. It’s only natural for Ah Zhu to sacrifice for XF and him to eternally long for her. AZ traveled thousands of miles just to be with XF, and XF found his way to her.

[danshu_]

One more thing that’s needed to be said about XF. Unlike any other protagonists in JY novels that I’ve read, only XF surpassed social, cultural, and racial discriminations. (YG passed social and cultural discriminations when he decided to marry his teacher.)

well, we can say that wei xiaobao also surpassed social, cultural, and racial discriminations. You can argue that guys like Guo Jing and Chen Jialuo also surpassed racial discriminations..

another thing; if Guo Jing could have secured peace between the Mongols and the Song Empire by committing suicide, I guarantee you he would have done it. I don't think Yang Guo cares about race either. Early in ROCH he made a comment that although the Mongols might make bad rulers, but the Song emperor wasn't a nice guy either. When he did eventually intervene, it was more because he saw the brutal treatment of innocent civilians by the invading army.

[Han Solo]

The love is too short, too forced, too forlon.

[Candide]

When I saw the abbreviated title in the main forum list: "Xiao Feng/Ah Zhu...greatest..." I immediately fill in the blank with "...fckup in Wuxia".

I think hardcases is too much into romances and Taiwanese dramas.

There would be millions of girls like Ah Zhu or better for XF and vice versa, just that they don't get the chance to meet.

-XF is gay or he looks down on women because he doesn’t talk to them- not true. In the book, XF only hangs out with men who drink, eat, and talk loud like him. That’s why he’s not so compatible with Miss Ma’s husband. So we can plausibly conclude that XF doesn’t talk to women because they’re not crude enough for him.

I can plausibly conclude that you are either a woman, or a man who has never had a decent pissup at the pub. It goes like this at the pub when the sole purpose of going there is to get shitfaced (unless they decide to pick up which is a different strategy):

- Men arrive at pub, eye the women. "Damn those are hot! Holy cow, those are whales!"
- After a few rounds, they start looking at the not so hot ones "Damn they'll do!"
- When they are absolutely shitfaced, "F'me, they're all smokin' hot!"
- Before they drop dead, "Let's go home, mate" - this is at the stage where they think everyone's fugly.

Nah mate, XF doesn't talk to women because he doesn't know how to or is too shy, and he doesn't talk or think about women because he's probably gay and doesn't know it. There's nothing wrong with that!

You talk to any man who's a regular at the pub (just like XF) and he will tell you that half of the conversations are about women - in which, 20% is about hot ones and 80% about fugly ones.

[PJ]

Damn it Candide, after I read your post about bar-frequenting men, I had a dream about this!! I even came up with a quote which made sense in my dream but not in real life.

[hardcases]

I think hardcases is too much into romances and Taiwanese dramas.

There would be millions of girls like Ah Zhu or better for XF and vice versa, just that they don't get the chance to meet.

I can plausibly conclude that you are either a woman, or a man who has never had a decent pissup at the pub. It goes like this at the pub when the sole purpose of going there is to get shitfaced (unless they decide to pick up which is a different strategy):

- Men arrive at pub, eye the women. "Damn those are hot! Holy cow, those are whales!"
- After a few rounds, they start looking at the not so hot ones "Damn they'll do!"
- When they are absolutely shitfaced, "F'me, they're all smokin' hot!"
- Before they drop dead, "Let's go home, mate" - this is at the stage where they think everyone's fugly.

Nah mate, XF doesn't talk to women because he doesn't know how to or is too shy, and he doesn't talk or think about women because he's probably gay and doesn't know it. There's nothing wrong with that!

You talk to any man who's a regular at the pub (just like XF) and he will tell you that half of the conversations are about women - in which, 20% is about hot ones and 80% about fugly ones.

Sorry, I don't quite know what you're talking about here. What's pub? shitfaced? fugly?
Anyways, have read the novel? Men today are way different than heroic men in JY universe (whether or not they represent real men is another question). They don't get together and talk about women (maybe DY), but absolute not XF. They're too busy talking about how good the wine is, how to save the world. In the novel, XF said he's just not interested in women, maybe because they don't have things in common to talk about. How many women in JY universe talk about wine and saving the world? I don't have a problem with homosexuality, but XF is just not gay.
You seem to be confusing present real men with the heroic men that JY tried to create. I might be wrong with this. But JY wrote his first novel in 1955 and finished his last novel in 1970. 1955-1970s may be considered China's dark age with the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, creating chaos and fear in China. This is also the time in which wuxia novels rampantly emerged (Gu Long probably wrote his novels before?) with great men and romantic relationships, so as to help people forget reality. Again, this is my opinion and I'm not really familiar with Chinese history, so please correct me if it is otherwise.

And wrong, I've never finished any Taiwanese/Korean love drama. They talk too much...cry too much.. and represent unrealistic human relationship....the movie purport to represent the present and real world, yet claim unreal facts, or at best, possible futuristic events. Wuxia is also not real, but it never purports to be.

[hardcases]

The love is too short, too forced, too forlon.

How is it forced? Yes, it is short, because JY had to kill of Ah Zhu inorder to progress the story. But just because it is short...doesn't mean that it's not beautiful.

[PJ]

Sorry, I don't quite know what you're talking about here. What's pub? shitfaced? fugly?

hardcases: just ignore Candide. He is the Bao Butong of this forum, if you know what I mean. If you stick around long enough, you will get used to his style.

(Candide rox )

[hardcases]

well, we can say that wei xiaobao also surpassed social, cultural, and racial discriminations. You can argue that guys like Guo Jing and Chen Jialuo also surpassed racial discriminations..

another thing; if Guo Jing could have secured peace between the Mongols and the Song Empire by committing suicide, I guarantee you he would have done it. I don't think Yang Guo cares about race either. Early in ROCH he made a comment that although the Mongols might make bad rulers, but the Song emperor wasn't a nice guy either. When he did eventually intervene, it was more because he saw the brutal treatment of innocent civilians by the invading army.

-wei xiaobao, how so? could you elaborate, especially the racial discrimination?

-YG didn't care about race because he never really cared about anything else besides himself and XLN. Sure, he did fight against the Mogols...but I'm not sure whether that's a genuine patriotic act to defend the Song, because after he found XLN, they went away together. Where's his patriot then? I heard that JY made YG a bit more unselfish in that regard in his 3rd revision.

Again, I did say that we wouldn't know for sure what YG and GJ would have done in XF's circumstance. We also wouldn't know what would happen if AZ hadn't died. Maybe XF and AZ would disappear like YG and XLN, then he wouldn't be so heroic then. Or maybe not. But the point is that she did die and that gave him an opportunity for him to sacrifice and showed that he's a hero. We can only analyze what really happened in the story.

[danshu_]

-wei xiaobao, how so? could you elaborate, especially the racial discrimination?

Are you serious? have you read Lu Dingji?? WXB is the guy who doesn't give a sh*t whether you're manchu, han, or even russian. He'll still make friends with you and be generous and loyal. No Racial discrimination? WXB's obviously the man, he was loyal and friends with the Manchu emperor and the han triads who wanted to overthrow the manchus at the same time!!!

Why do you want me to prove YG was a Han patriot?? We're discussing whether he cares about racial distinctions or not...

[hardcases]

Are you serious? have you read Lu Dingji?? WXB is the guy who doesn't give a sh*t whether you're manchu, han, or even russian. He'll still make friends with you and be generous and loyal. No Racial discrimination? WXB's obviously the man, he was loyal and friends with the Manchu emperor and the han triads who wanted to overthrow the manchus at the same time!!!

Why do you want me to prove YG was a Han patriot?? We're discussing whether he cares about racial distinctions or not...

About WXB, I've not read the novel, that's why i asked you to elaborate. cheez calm down.

I pointed out the fact that YG wasn't really a Han patriot...even though it seems like he was to show that he didn't really care about alot of stuff..besides himself and XLN. So, you're right, he doesn't care about race, but not because he surpassed that problem, he just too obssesed with himself to think of other things.

[duguxiaojing]

even though it seems like he was to show that he didn't really care about alot of stuff..besides himself and XLN.

.......errr i'm not sure that im reading this right but if your saying that YG only cared about himself and XLN you are wrong. Yg made ALOT of mistakes in his life but he was not heartless, if you read through the novel their numerous examples of YG sacraficing himself for others, even people he hated. Heck even as a child he risked his life to save GF, CY and LWS from LMC.

People critcize YG for being whiny, emotional, unpatriotic, feminine ect ect and...some of the criticism is legit but i think yours is a bit off track.

[danshu_]

.......errr i'm not sure that im reading this right but if your saying that YG only cared about himself and XLN you are wrong. Yg made ALOT of mistakes in his life but he was not heartless, if you read through the novel their numerous examples of YG sacraficing himself for others, even people he hated. Heck even as a child he risked his life to save GF, CY and LWS from LMC.

People critcize YG for being whiny, emotional, unpatriotic, feminine ect ect and...some of the criticism is legit but i think yours is a bit off track.

Yes, especially if you take a look at his actions near the end of ROCH, his accomplishments are very great, and he was already re-united with XLN... it was YG who killed the Mongol Khan, and who saved Guo Xiang. He was definitely a patriot, and his contributions at the end to Xiangyang practically overshadow those of Guo Jing.

[hardcases]

.......errr i'm not sure that im reading this right but if your saying that YG only cared about himself and XLN you are wrong. Yg made ALOT of mistakes in his life but he was not heartless, if you read through the novel their numerous examples of YG sacraficing himself for others, even people he hated. Heck even as a child he risked his life to save GF, CY and LWS from LMC.

People critcize YG for being whiny, emotional, unpatriotic, feminine ect ect and...some of the criticism is legit but i think yours is a bit off track.

YJ wouldn't make any of his protagonists heartless, and YG is no acception. The reason i said that he's ultimately about himself and XLN is because he was useless while waiting for XLN. That's 16 years of being depressed and unproductive (sure he learned some new kungfu, but didn't do much to help others). Unlike YG, XF was also heartbroken (probably more so than YG because he knew AZ really died), but still always placed others' well-being before his personal issues.

[hardcases]

Yes, especially if you take a look at his actions near the end of ROCH, his accomplishments are very great, and he was already re-united with XLN... it was YG who killed the Mongol Khan, and who saved Guo Xiang. He was definitely a patriot, and his contributions at the end to Xiangyang practically overshadow those of Guo Jing.

You have to analyse his character throughout the whole story, not just some spur of the moment act. GJ devoted his whole life to defending the Song. Can't say that about YG, especially those 16 years, and also when he decided to disappear with XLN. It's just happen to be that he's smarter and better at kungfu than GJ, and hence, had greater accomplishments. But this does not say anything about his character, whether he's a genuinely a hero or not.

[duguxiaojing]

The reason i said that he's ultimately about himself and XLN is because he was useless while waiting for XLN. That's 16 years of being depressed and unproductive (sure he learned some new kungfu, but didn't do much to help others). Unlike YG, XF was also heartbroken (probably more so than YG because he knew AZ really died), but still always placed others' well-being before his personal issues.

Yg spent 1 year a dugu's grave 6 years at south sea and then spent 9 years helping others, we hear only a handful of the stories told to GX.

Unlike YG, XF was also heartbroken (probably more so than YG because he knew AZ really died), but still always placed others' well-being before his personal issues

After Yg jumped off the cliff in passionless valley, GX followed him and both landed in a deep pool at this point, he was convinced that XLN was dead and realized that he was fooled into living by XLN..but he agreed to GX that he would no longer take his own life and at this point he was going to take one of the condors up to the top of the cliff and help GX smack down GWM. After that who knows what Yg would have done..but their is no gurantee that he would have stayed at passionless valley and cried for the rest of his life. Chances are he would have continued his life as the great condor hero helping others which is what he had been doing for 9 years.

Even though he loves XLN he never betrayed his friends to live a life of seclusion with her. When HR was almost captured by GWM he could have left with XLN but instead risked both his life and XLN's life to help HR escape. At this point all he wanted to do was return to the Ancient Tomb after being chastied and ridiculed by the public and almost killed by GJ for loving his master.

Also in the end of the novel Yg brought XLN to XY but, when he saw the mongols attacking he could have turned back around and no one would have known, but he risked his life and XLN's life to save GX.

After he saved GX and defeated GWM he risked his life again this time to save YLC, he then directly attacked the Khan IIRC he thought to himself that the heavens were kind enough to let him remeet with XLN, and he would not regret dying for his country.

You can criticize Yg for not staying at XY, but he is not the type to just leave others to die so that he can spend his life with XLN..or as you say place his personal issues over other's well-being.

[danshu_]

You have to analyse his character throughout the whole story, not just some spur of the moment act. GJ devoted his whole life to defending the Song. Can't say that about YG, especially those 16 years, and also when he decided to disappear with XLN. It's just happen to be that he's smarter and better at kungfu than GJ, and hence, had greater accomplishments. But this does not say anything about his character, whether he's a genuinely a hero or not.

During those 16 years Yang Guo was the condor HERO. This is one of the few instances in modern wuxia literature where a character actually embodies the traditional definition of a "xia", ie. wandering around and exacting justice for the common people. Yang Guo slayed many corrupt government officials and righted many wrongs during that period.

And no, I don't think you should look at the whole novel, unless you're talking about a character who doesn't EVOLVE or CHANGE, or correct one's mistakes, which is what the Guo in YG's name refers to. He finally realizes at the end of the novel what it means to be a true man and acts accordingly.

Honesly man, if you don't like Yang Guo that's fine, many people don't like him, but I wouldn't say he's not a hero or a patriot. Right now you are responding sort of like GUO FU would

[Han Solo]

How is it forced? Yes, it is short, because JY had to kill of Ah Zhu inorder to progress the story. But just because it is short...doesn't mean that it's not beautiful.

TOO FORCED as in the initiation and the pace of the love story.

With all my love to QF and Ah Zhu, the reasons that they fell in love is kinda doubtful, felt forced.

Ah Zhu's reasons is easy to understand - QF is heroic, manly etc.

QF's reasons- "Ah Zhu, you are the only one to understand me, that you don't mind me being a Khitan etc etc". Plus i injured Ah Zhu, i must be responsible.
--> To me, that is more like reasons to be friends with someone. QF maybe was starting to fall in love with ah zhu when they are talking about raising goats in the country etc, but it doesn't resonate as deep love.


Han Solo

[PJ]

A lot of readers feel that what Ah Zhu and Xiao Feng shared is profound RESPECT, not love, and I agree with this.

[hardcases]

During those 16 years Yang Guo was the condor HERO. This is one of the few instances in modern wuxia literature where a character actually embodies the traditional definition of a "xia", ie. wandering around and exacting justice for the common people. Yang Guo slayed many corrupt government officials and righted many wrongs during that period.

And no, I don't think you should look at the whole novel, unless you're talking about a character who doesn't EVOLVE or CHANGE, or correct one's mistakes, which is what the Guo in YG's name refers to. He finally realizes at the end of the novel what it means to be a true man and acts accordingly.

Honesly man, if you don't like Yang Guo that's fine, many people don't like him, but I wouldn't say he's not a hero or a patriot. Right now you are responding sort of like GUO FU would

Exactly, after all he's been through, he still chose XLN. Those 16 years, maybe he's just bored because XLN isn't around, so started wandering around and helping people. Didn't want to die because XLN may be alive. He sort of really had nothing else to do while waiting for her, might as well do something that would gain him the name Condor Hero. Honestly, who would take the name Hero? how conceited. People like him cuz he's thoughtful and romantic, like when he prepared all those gifts for GX on her birthday. Spent too much time worrying about small things like that.