Xiao Long Nu vs. Ling Wu Chong

[Whsie]

To conclude my opinion, I think the double-sword is less practical in the real combat (while single-sword/jian could be very powerful). Therefore, XLN performance is more fictional/fantasy than real. However, based on the description in the novel (which is not real), XLN technique has no weakness since she has full control on her 2 swords.

And that is why XLN has the technique of ambidexterity! You can fully operate the 2 swords at the same time with full control.

[PJ]

And DFBB is clearly meant to be a super level fighter while XLN is described more than once as below a great which is why I don't think that the two are even close in terms of power.

I don't agree with the logic that you are using. DFBB is meant to be a powerhouse IN SMILING PROUD WANDERER, whereas Dragon Girl is below the Greats IN ROCH. For all we know the martial arts standard in ROCH could be much higher than in SPW. So that doesn't confirm a thing.

XLN, no matter how awesome her martial arts is described in LOCH, is meant to be a somewhere between 1st and 2nd tier in terms of her martial arts talent, which is as far as a female supporting character ever gets. LHC is meant to be 1st tier in martial arts which is pretty much the same as almost every main male character.

I don't like the tier system you are using. Firstly, if Linghu Chong is at tier 1 then what tier is the Sweeper Monk at? And again, LHC is tier TWO (not 1) in SPW only. That may very well mean that he is tier 3, tier 4, tier 5, or tier 6 in ROCH.

DGQB is meant to be a figure whose martial arts is significantly better than the 4 greats since YG only learned a bit of what DGQB knows and is already equal to the greats

Yang Guo had exposure to great stuff before learning Dugu Qiubai's arts. Also, Yang Guo benefitted heavily from the snake bladder which I am doubtful that it is part of Dugu Qiubai's training program. Lastly he was not quite at the Great level yet pre-16 years.

Also, DG9J is described to be the pinnacle of swordplay and it is said to have the potential to beat anything. Nothing was said to be superior to DG9J and JY even said that the evil killing 72 swords which is pretty much the same as QHBD, is inferior to DG9J. LHC just hadn't reach a high enough level with DG9J to beat DFBB.

Here You are talking about Dugu 9 Swords in theory and I'm talking about the fighters in reality.

LHC said that the way to beat DFBB is simply to attack first and therefore make DFBB defend and not attack. LHC simply wasn't good enough yet at that moment, but it shows that if your swordmanship is good enough, you can attack in a manner that can beat a faster opponent.

Uhh, I'm pretty sure that you need to match your opponent closely in speed first. If your opponent has better internal energy and better speed than you, then unless his technique really stinks, you are screwed no matter what.

[PJ]

Yeah, I would consider RYY to be better than Xiaoxingzi. XXZ was just a minor, typical fairly high level fighter whose job is just to portray the hero in a positive light. RYY is more talented that that.

THAT IS THE STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD.

PJ

[Whsie]

Uhh, I'm pretty sure that you need to match your opponent closely in speed first. If your opponent has better internal energy and better speed than you, then unless his technique really stinks, you are screwed no matter what.

I agree and that was what I've been saying the whole time! XLN's superior speed may be too much.

It's like this:
In a random made up video RPG Game.

Your opponent is fighting you. You have this one super attack that can counter anything that this boss has. The catch is that if you choose that attack, you need to charge up. And the specialty about this boss is that it is smart. It attacks with the strongest magics when it knows that you can't counter. So? What does this mean? It means that you have the MATERIAL to win and counter, but you can't win because you can't attack it on time or some other factor.

It is similiar between LHC and XLN. LHC has the MATERIAL to counter XLN's Twin Jade Maiden, but he still can't win because he hasn't met the prerequisite of being equally as fast or faster.

[Whsie]

THAT IS THE STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD.

PJ

Hm.... I still more open on the difference between RYY and XXZ. RYY is naturally at a higher status in the book because the society is much weaker than ROCH. XXZ is proabably still in the top 99 percentile, but he is shown weaker because of the fact that his era is filled with Greats. So I can't say for sure....

[Wu Wudi]

THAT IS THE STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD.

PJ

That is the stupidest response I've ever read.

[Whsie]

um.... guys.... don't get this into another one of those heated arguements.

[Wu Wudi]

I don't agree with the logic that you are using. DFBB is meant to be a powerhouse IN SMILING PROUD WANDERER, whereas Dragon Girl is below the Greats IN ROCH. For all we know the martial arts standard in ROCH could be much higher than in SPW. So that doesn't confirm a thing.

You just said yourself in the other thread that your opinion of DFBB is based on your "gut feeling". I've no problem with you doing so since I"ve been saying that the impression that you get from a chracter through evaluating the context is very important in determination of power level. While I do believe that the overall environment in SPW is lower than LOCH/ROCH, we can't say for sure. Look at how long people have argued about the martial arts deterioration theory. All I know is that DFBB was portrayed as faster than anyone in JY"s world, except for the Sweeper monk. Also, there is a much greater emphasis on swordplay in SPW than in any JY story and DG9J is still considered the best sword fighting martial arts in the story. The above makes me think that the top fighters in SPW, and especially DFBB, might not be that much worse than the top fighters in ROCH. DFBB was portrayed as a fearsome martial artist that is way beyond anyone else in SPW while XLN is below YG and the other greats therefore I have to give the edge to DFBB, unless it's shown clearly that even the top fighters in SPW are way below top fighters in ROCH. Unlike DGSD, there are no super powerful or exotic martial arts that will make me believe that ROCH is meant to be a much greater era than SPW.

I don't like the tier system you are using. Firstly, if Linghu Chong is at tier 1 then what tier is the Sweeper Monk at? And again, LHC is tier TWO (not 1) in SPW only. That may very well mean that he is tier 3, tier 4, tier 5, or tier 6 in ROCH.

I would put people like Sweeper Monk in like a super heavyweight tier or somethign like that. Also, I disagree very strongly that LHC is tier 2 in SPW, and I think that more than a few would agree with me. My tier 1 is for most of JY's male portaganists and supporting characters like Z3F, 4 greats, etc. I know technically tier 1 is really tier 2 since people like DQBB/Sweeper are above them but people like GJ/YG are too good for me to call them tier 2 fighters.

I
Here You are talking about Dugu 9 Swords in theory and I'm talking about the fighters in reality.

I just don't think that XLN is a better or more talented swordsman than LHC.

Uhh, I'm pretty sure that you need to match your opponent closely in speed first. If your opponent has better internal energy and better speed than you, then unless his technique really stinks, you are screwed no matter what.

I don't agree with this speed theory because the most powerful fighters in JY's world are usually very old guys. In the real world, you can still keep your strength as you age such as lifting the same weights that you did when you were younger. However, speed and explosiveness drop as you age. 30 year old sprinters, who would be young men in the non-track world, find it almost impossible to keep up with 20 year olds. I know Wuxia is fiction but JY has said that the old guys do diminish in terms of physical attributes, which is why I assume that those old guys would lose speed as they do in real life. However, since those old guys are still the most powerful people in Wulin, I believe that they are at such high levels of martial arts that they can beat faster, younger people.

[Wu Wudi]

um.... guys.... don't get this into another one of those heated arguements.

I like PJ but one rude response deserves another.

[Pacifian]

I don't agree with this speed theory because the most powerful fighters in JY's world are usually very old guys. In the real world, you can still keep your strength as you age such as lifting the same weights that you did when you were younger. However, speed and explosiveness drop as you age. 30 year old sprinters, who would be young men in the non-track world, find it almost impossible to keep up with 20 year olds. I know Wuxia is fiction but JY has said that the old guys do diminish in terms of physical attributes, which is why I assume that those old guys would lose speed as they do in real life. However, since those old guys are still the most powerful people in Wulin, I believe that they are at such high levels of martial arts that they can beat faster, younger people.

Okay. Let's confirm the fighters at their age we are talking about before all of us are talking about them at different ages. I presume we are comparing XLN pre 16 years right?

[Ken Cheng]

I just don't think that XLN is a better or more talented swordsman than LHC.

Barring some rather radical reconstructive surgery and hormonal therapy, it's highly unlikely that Little Dragon Girl can ever be a better/more talented swordsMAN than Ling Wu Chung.

[Whsie]

Also, there is a much greater emphasis on swordplay in SPW than in any JY story and DG9J is still considered the best sword fighting martial arts in the story. The above makes me think that the top fighters in SPW, and especially DFBB, might not be that much worse than the top fighters in ROCH. DFBB was portrayed as a fearsome martial artist that is way beyond anyone else in SPW while XLN is below YG and the other greats therefore I have to give the edge to DFBB, unless it's shown clearly that even the top fighters in SPW are way below top fighters in ROCH. Unlike DGSD, there are no super powerful or exotic martial arts that will make me believe that ROCH is meant to be a much greater era than SPW.



I would put people like Sweeper Monk in like a super heavyweight tier or somethign like that. Also, I disagree very strongly that LHC is tier 2 in SPW, and I think that more than a few would agree with me. My tier 1 is for most of JY's male portaganists and supporting characters like Z3F, 4 greats, etc. I know technically tier 1 is really tier 2 since people like DQBB/Sweeper are above them but people like GJ/YG are too good for me to call them tier 2 fighters.

I don't agree with this speed theory because the most powerful fighters in JY's world are usually very old guys. In the real world, you can still keep your strength as you age such as lifting the same weights that you did when you were younger. However, speed and explosiveness drop as you age. 30 year old sprinters, who would be young men in the non-track world, find it almost impossible to keep up with 20 year olds. I know Wuxia is fiction but JY has said that the old guys do diminish in terms of physical attributes, which is why I assume that those old guys would lose speed as they do in real life. However, since those old guys are still the most powerful people in Wulin, I believe that they are at such high levels of martial arts that they can beat faster, younger people.

Um.... actually..... no.... Jin Yong showing that one is more focused on weapons actually means that the fighters of the weapon-relying group is weaker. NOTICE: Ode of Gallantary, ROCH, LOCH, HSDS, DGSD. Do any of those books focus on weapons? While there may be times that weapon is a bit said, but it is never a major factor. Even in ROCH, YG eventually switched out from sword to Melancholic Sad Palm. So I DON'T think SPW Elites are ~ ROCH Greats as you said. And JY did say in LOCH that at a point, weapon becomes a non-factor. And seeing that the SPW needs weapon more, I'm not as convinced that SPW are ~ those other books.

If you look at feats, ROCH period Great's feats are certainly more impressive. I immediately think of 3 feats that are only matched by DGSD's 4 Elite level and not seen SPW. One is Yideng's Thousand Li Transmitting Sound that is ~ JMZ's soft speak(~ distance+plus soft voice like speaking next to another). Another one is YG's throwing of a stick into the ground 4 inches WITHOUT trying his best while XF threw his stick as hard as he could got 5 inches. While XF does get deeper by 1 inch, YG hasn't tried his hardest yet. And naturally, there is Jue Yuan's 5 inch footmark that is 3 inches deeper than Xian Wen Tian's 2 inch feet mark PLUS the fact that Jue Yuan's stone is described "as hard as metal" while XWT was just a regular floor. So I think yes, the top fighters of SPW are considerably weaker than the ROCH Greats by a considerate margin. How the SPW Elites compare to the LOCH period Greats? I feel SPW Elites are ~ to the LOCH Greats. One of the feats is Fangzhang's throwing a paper across the air straight foward. HYS did a similiar feat when he threw his paper across the air 10 feet in a straight line.

Though there isn't any exotic arts in ROCH, but the arts at the very least are better than the ones in XAJH. Divine Flick, Vacant Fist, Toad Stance, Pre Heaven, Solitary Yang Finger, XL18Z, Melancholic Sad Palm are all better. The exception in XAJH is of course KHBD and maybe DG9J(I didn't include XXDF because of it's harm to the user) that may be comparable. However, overall speaking, the arts of XAJH are certainly weaker.

I don't think LHC is as strong as your "tier 1" for reasons I mentioned in paragraph 2. I accept SPW Elites around LOCH Greats, but I still think SPW Elites still have a far way to go before they reach the ROCH Greats level. And personally, after about 1.5 year at this forum, I think the general opinion is that the SPW Elites are ~ LOCH OR SPW Elites are slightly greater than the LOCH Greats, but still considerably weaker than ROCH Greats.

Actually, old guys can still be fast as they were when they were young, the thing is that they can't sprint as LONG in time. Look at the ZBT, QQR, XLN sprint.

[PJ]

with all due respect to Wu Wudi, when you stated that you felt Ren Yinyin to be better than XiaoxiangZi, Yin Kexi et al, you were referring to their IMPORTANCE AS A CHARACTER, not their level of martial arts. It is true that Ren Yinyin plays a more important role in the novel but that is not the same thing as having higher martial arts proficiency than a minor character.

[Wu Wudi]

Barring some rather radical reconstructive surgery and hormonal therapy, it's highly unlikely that Little Dragon Girl can ever be a better/more talented swordsMAN than Ling Wu Chung.

Yup, it's just a JY rule that main male character>main female character in martial arts ability/talent. I don't necessarily agree with that rule but it's evident that such a rule is in place. It's kinda ironic that only Gu Long has been criticized for being a sexist yet the heros in JY's world usually get hurt by women only when the women resort to tricks. The only exception is LCY but she's just a supporting character that you never see and even then JY has to say that WCY was superior at the end.

[Whsie]

with all due respect to Wu Wudi, when you stated that you felt Ren Yinyin to be better than XiaoxiangZi, Yin Kexi et al, you were referring to their IMPORTANCE AS A CHARACTER, not their level of martial arts. It is true that Ren Yinyin plays a more important role in the novel but that is not the same thing as having higher martial arts proficiency than a minor character.

I have to agree with PJ. It's like comparing Chen Jia Luo or Yuan Chen Zhi to Xiao Xian Zhi or Ni Muo Zhi. CJL and YCZ each are more important, but are they stronger than XXZ or NMZ? No.

[Wu Wudi]

with all due respect to Wu Wudi, when you stated that you felt Ren Yinyin to be better than XiaoxiangZi, Yin Kexi et al, you were referring to their IMPORTANCE AS A CHARACTER, not their level of martial arts. It is true that Ren Yinyin plays a more important role in the novel but that is not the same thing as having higher martial arts proficiency than a minor character.

Yes, that's what I've been pounding in the ground the last couple of days, context is very important. People like XiaoxiangZi, Yin Kexi are a dime a dozen in JY's world and are not considered great talents but RYY is obviously meant to be a top talent like HR/XLN. XiaoxiangZi, Yin Kexi are not much different from those martial arts "experts" that a young GJ faced in LOCH. Those characters exist merely to offer some problems for the protaganists before they make their typical jumps in power. Those characters are much different from people like OYF, DFBB, and yes, BWM (don't say that I never give him respect again ) who are meant to be troublesome for the heroes even after they get their mid-story power boosts.

[PJ]

but RYY is obviously meant to be a top talent like HR/XLN.

How do you know RYY is obviously meant to be a top talent? Explain with evidences from on the novel.

It's arguable whether RYY is even a top talent in Smiling Proud Wanderer, nevermind in the entire Jin Yong universe.

Also, I am sure that minor characters have been described to bear top talent. But as usual I am sure you will simply shrug those off since they don't fit nicely into what you personally feel is the author's intention.

By your logic, what about Zhao Min? Ah Zhu? Yuan Ziyi? Ah Xiou? Are all of the protagonists and their female interests meant to be a top talent like Huang Rong and Xiaolongnu.

[PJ]

XiaoxiangZi, Yin Kexi are not much different from those martial arts "experts" that a young GJ faced in LOCH.

Yeah, except the Mongolian's martial arts level was 10 times better than the other ones.

You are still talking about the ROLE OF THE CHARACTERS. Not their martial arts. Those are 2 different things. Minor characters can have powerful martial arts (Kurong, Yellow-eyebrowed Monk, etc) while main characters can have crap martial arts (Ah Zi, Ah Zhu, Wei Xiaobao)

[Pacifian]

RYY's martial arts are good, no doubt, but I call them above average. Granted, she can finish off weak fighters and can deal with moderately strong ones, but still, this does not put her in the same tier with contenders like XiaoXiangzi etc.

[PJ]

I have to respond to this comment:

You just said yourself in the other thread that your opinion of DFBB is based on your "gut feeling".

Not so. I said that it is my "gut feeling" that 3 of the Greats would not suffer the same consequence against DFBB that Ren Woxing and co suffered. In reality I feel that DFBB is around the Greats level or maybe a bit higher.