If Yu Doi Nam had returned to Mo Dong safely with the Dragon Sabre

[Ken Cheng]

The saga of the Dragon Sabre really began when Yu Doi Nam was unable to bring the Dragon Sabre safely back to Mt. Mo Dong and hand it over to his teacher, Cheung 3 Fung, to decide what should be done with it. From that point on, pursuit of this fabled weapon would bring turmoil to wulin for the next twenty years.

If Yu Doi Nam had been able to safely bring the Dragon Sabre to Cheung 3 Fung at Mo Dong, things would have played out very differently. There would have been headaches for both Mo Dong and those interested in the Dragon Sabre (more or less all of wulin). Cheung 3 Fung would know that the presence of the Dragon Sabre at Mo Dong would attract problems and controversy. Although Cheung 3 Fung and Mo Dong were well respected in wulin, wulin at large would not approve of the Mo Dong Sect hoarding the Dragon Sabre (and even Cheung 3 Fung would agree that he has no justification for claiming exclusive Mo Dong possession of the Dragon Sabre). Cheung 3 Fung might have been at a loss for what would be the appropriate decision regarding the future of the weapon.

On the other side of the coin, the Heavenly Eagle Sect would not have been able to obtain the Dragon Sabre. It's one thing to steal it from an isolated Yu Doi Nam. It's quite another to try to steal it from Mt. Mo Dong where all seven Mo Dong Heroes and Cheung 3 Fung are present. Golden Haired Lion King Tse Tsun and the Yuan Dynasty's mercenaries also would not have been able to take the Dragon Sabre for the same reasons. Other sects such as Shaolin, Kunlun, and Hung Dung would have had to engage in open warfare against Mo Dong to take the Dragon Sabre, but even if they succeed, it would be costly. Moreover, where would their face be for doing such a thing? Unlike the Ming Cult, whom the orthodox sects could pass off as a "demonic sect" that they were attacking for the "good" of society, Mo Dong was highly respected and an attack on Mo Dong on false pretenses would not have been accepted as legitimate by the wulin public.

Ngor Mei Sect could make a legitimate claim to the Dragon Sabre (it was the rightful possession of the Gwok family, after all, and Gwok Seung was the Ngor Mei Sect's founder), but to make this claim, Mit Jeut See Tai would have to reveal zealously guarded Ngor Mei Sect secrets to Cheung 3 Fung. Would she do so?

Many interesting alternative scenarios spring up if Yu Doi Nam returns safely to Mo Dong with the Dragon Sabre.

[TommyH]

Yu Doi Nam is who? Is he the 3rd disciple of Cheung 3 Fung?

[Ken Cheng]

Yu Doi Nam is who? Is he the 3rd disciple of Cheung 3 Fung?

Yep. The one who was crippled at the beginning of the story (poor guy).

[Richrf]

Ngor Mei Sect could make a legitimate claim to the Dragon Sabre (it was the rightful possession of the Gwok family, after all, and Gwok Seung was the Ngor Mei Sect's founder), but to make this claim, Mit Jeut See Tai would have to reveal zealously guarded Ngor Mei Sect secrets to Cheung 3 Fung. Would she do so?

I don't understand the logic of this one. It is well known that E mei was founded by Guo xiang and equally well known about the origins of the weapon, as you said E mei should have it by family right,

Why should she have to reveal to Z3F the secret? It's her's by right. End of story.

[TommyH]

Yep. The one who was crippled at the beginning of the story (poor guy).

If he returned the Dragon Sabre to Cheung 3 Fung at the beginning of the story then things would probably be very different. Cheung 3 Fung would probably have known what to do to it...

[Ken Cheng]

I don't understand the logic of this one. It is well known that E mei was founded by Guo xiang and equally well known about the origins of the weapon, as you said E mei should have it by family right,

Why should she have to reveal to Z3F the secret? It's her's by right. End of story.

Actually, nobody outside of the Ngor Mei Sect knew where the two weapons came from. The wulin public didn't even know that the Heaven Sword was attached to the Ngor Mei Sect, much less that Gwok Jing and Wong Yung created it. Of the Dragon Sabre even less was known. Cheung 3 Fung would have gladly given the Dragon Sabre to Mit Jeut See Tai after he could verify her claim, but the weapons' origins were not common knowledge. Even within the Ngor Mei Sect, only the leaders knew the truth.

[Richrf]

Actually, nobody outside of the Ngor Mei Sect knew where the two weapons came from. The wulin public didn't even know that the Heaven Sword was attached to the Ngor Mei Sect, much less that Gwok Jing and Wong Yung created it. Of the Dragon Sabre even less was known. Cheung 3 Fung would have gladly given the Dragon Sabre to Mit Jeut See Tai after he could verify her claim, but the weapons' origins were not common knowledge. Even within the Ngor Mei Sect, only the leaders knew the truth.

Which still doesn't answer the question. If Z3F knew enough to give it to Emei (your assertion), there was no need to say more . Of course, others would suspect she knew the secret, and they would come after Emei, who is considered lesser than Wudang....

[Ken Cheng]

If he returned the Dragon Sabre to Cheung 3 Fung at the beginning of the story then things would probably be very different. Cheung 3 Fung would probably have known what to do to it...

Keeping it at Mo Dong was not a good option. There would have been controversy at the very least, and inevitably, somebody would try to steal it anyway. Even if Cheung 3 Fung and his students could turn away the thieves, it would be an ongoing and probably increasingly serious problem.

The only appropriate people to give it to is the Ngor Mei Sect (but only after Cheung 3 Fung could verify Ngor Mei's claim to the weapon), at which point it would become Ngor Mei's hot potato to handle. Ngor Mei, however, would have had an even more difficult time holding on to the weapon since they lacked a martial artist on the level of Cheung 3 Fung and couldn't put together seven disciples as capable as the Mo Dong 7 Heroes.

[TommyH]

Keeping it at Mo Dong was not a good option. There would have been controversy at the very least, and inevitably, somebody would try to steal it anyway. Even if Cheung 3 Fung and his students could turn away the thieves, it would be an ongoing and probably increasingly serious problem.

The only appropriate people to give it to is the Ngor Mei Sect (but only after Cheung 3 Fung could verify Ngor Mei's claim to the weapon), at which point it would become Ngor Mei's hot potato to handle. Ngor Mei, however, would have had an even more difficult time holding on to the weapon since they lacked a martial artist on the level of Cheung 3 Fung and couldn't put together seven disciples as capable as the Mo Dong 7 Heroes.

Hmph...what made the weapons so popular? Is it because it is said that whoever possess the two weapons can rule the world or something?

[Ken Cheng]

Which still doesn't answer the question. If Z3F knew enough to give it to Emei (your assertion).

He didn't. Although Cheung 3 Fung was acquainted with Gwok Seung, he knew nothing about the Heaven Sword or the Dragon Sabre's origins. If Mit Jeut See Tai came to Mo Dong claiming ownership of the Dragon Sabre, she would need to give him a legitimate reason (i.e. revealing Ngor Mei's founding secret). This is a secret that Ngor Mei Sect leaders cannot openly share with others, but to prove Ngor Mei's claim to the weapon, Mit Jeut would need to reveal the secret to Cheung 3 Fung (otherwise, he would not know that the Ngor Mei Sect's claim to the weapon is legitimate). I believe that Cheung 3 Fung would take Mit Jeut See Tai's word on faith, but even so, she must tell him the secret. But could she? Would she?

[Richrf]

The only appropriate people to give it to is the Ngor Mei Sect (but only after Cheung 3 Fung could verify Ngor Mei's claim to the weapon), at which point it would become Ngor Mei's hot potato to handle.

I think you are assuming that E mei has to reveal the secret of the hidden manuals in the weapon to Z3F before Z3f would give it up. I don't think it would be necessarily true.

Ngor Mei, however, would have had an even more difficult time holding on to the weapon since they lacked a martial artist on the level of Cheung 3 Fung and couldn't put together seven disciples as capable as the Mo Dong 7 Heroes.

I agree. Even Z3F + wudang would have problems, just look at what happened when they came on his 100th birthday just to look for XX. The main thing holding them back was fear of Z3F really. Even the wudang 7 xia, were not that much of a factor. And this is over just the location of XX.

Imagine if wudang really had the weapons...

Emei doesn't have a prayer unless they mastered 9 jin in a flash

[Ken Cheng]

Hmph...what made the weapons so popular? Is it because it is said that whoever possess the two weapons can rule the world or something?

Yes. During the 64 or so years between the weapons' creation and the incident with Yu Doi Nam, a legend had sprung up around the Dragon Sabre (mainly, although the Heaven Sword was said to be its rival). Many among the wulin public believed that if they could gain possession of the Dragon Sabre and discover its secret, they could rule the world. What that secret was, however, was known only to the Ngor Mei Sect's leaders (Gwok Seung, her direct successor, Mit Jeut See Tai, and Chow Chi Yerk).

[Ken Cheng]

I think you are assuming that E mei has to reveal the secret of the hidden manuals in the weapon to Z3F before Z3f would give it up. I don't think it would be necessarily true.

The manuals Mit Jeut See Tai could keep a secret if she wants, but she'd need to reveal that the weapons were created by Gwok Jing and Wong Yung to make a legitimate claim for the Ngor Mei Sect. Otherwise, it's going to come down to an implausible scenario wherein Mit Jeut See Tai goes to Mo Dong and says to Cheung 3 Fung, "We want the Dragon Sabre. It's ours," and Cheung 3 Fung dociley replies, "Certainly. Here it is."

Not likely. Cheung 3 Fung was a trusting individual and he considered the members of Ngor Mei Sect to be friends, but even so, it would be foolish of him to just give the Dragon Sabre to Ngor Mei Sect without getting at least some verification that they have a legitimate claim to it. Otherwise, Shaolin, Kunlun, etc., could make similar (though illegitimate) claims on the weapon.

[Richrf]

The manuals Mit Jeut See Tai could keep a secret if she wants, but she'd need to reveal that the weapons were created by Gwok Jing and Wong Yung to make a legitimate claim for the Ngor Mei Sect.

Not likely. Cheung 3 Fung was a trusting individual and he considered the members of Ngor Mei Sect to be friends, but even so, it would be foolish of him to just give the Dragon Sabre to Ngor Mei Sect without getting at least some verification that they have a legitimate claim to it. Otherwise, Shaolin, Kunlun, etc., could make similar (though illegitimate) claims on the weapon.

So in other words you assume that Z3F has to be told the secret, yes?

[Suet Seung]

Hmph...what made the weapons so popular? Is it because it is said that whoever possess the two weapons can rule the world or something?

Yeah, in addition to what Ken Cheng said...

These poems or prose were circulating throughout wulin:

Greatest of all Wulin(or Supreme Ruler of Wulin),
Is the precious dragon sabre,
Commands those beneath the sky (heaven),
Who dares defy?
Heaven Sword remains hidden
Its powers none can match.

[Ken Cheng]

So in other words you assume that Z3F has to be told the secret, yes?

Yes, otherwise, he has no more reason to give the Dragon Sabre to Ngor Mei than he does to Shaolin, etc.

[TommyH]

By the way how long does Cheung Mo Gei's father (Cheung Chui San) live in the book? From which chapter to which?

[Richrf]

Yes, otherwise, he has no more reason to give the Dragon Sabre to Ngor Mei than he does to Shaolin, etc.

Except the word of someone from a mingmenzhengpai. And it does sound pausible.

Certainly, Shaolin won't claim something like that.

[Ken Cheng]

Except the word of someone from a mingmenzhengpai. And it does sound pausible.

Well, it does because it's true. Still, if I were in Cheung 3 Fung's position, I would insist on some proof.

Certainly, Shaolin won't claim something like that.

I wouldn't be too sure. If there's one thing that HSDS proved, it was that the orthdox sects were willing to do just about anything to promote their interests. Shaolin would not have claimed that the Dragon Sabre was made by Gwok Jing (because they had no connection to him), but they might have tried other methods of acquiring the weapon.

[Suet Seung]

Except the word of someone from a mingmenzhengpai. And it does sound pausible.

Certainly, Shaolin won't claim something like that.

Why not? Xie Xun's villianous teacher was at Shaolin. He convinced the Shaolin elders to go after WuDang because Xie Xun killed his shifu, who was a respected elder of Shaolin. Who can say, XX's teacher wouldn't convince Shaolin to take claim of the Dragon Sabre? All the more plan to rule people in Wulin and turn them even more against the Ming Cult.