Who is the greatest "normal" Shaolin expert?

[PJ]

Excluding the Sweeper Monk and Reverend Jueyuan (who are not "normal"), who do you think is the #1 most POWERFUL shaolin expert in Jin Yong wuxia history?

[yittz]

Oh essentially comparing DGSD with SPW? Cause Huo Gong can be defeated as already mentioned in HSDS. Kong Jian shouldn't be better than Du monks (who's at least twice as good as other Kong monks), so assuming XF>ZWJ, then Xuan Ci is better than Du and Kong Jian. Fang Zhang is the tricky one. 2nd best in the novel where it's difficult to place the first. Assuming DFBB is equal or less than a great, then Fang Zhang is less than Xuan Ci.

[Tazzy1972]

should be Xuan Ci

[Tazzy1972]

also is Kong Jian the best of the Kong generation monks?

[PJ]

oops, forgot to include the 3 Du generation monks in the poll.

[PJ]

also is Kong Jian the best of the Kong generation monks?

Yes. He is also the most enlightened by far.

[PJ]

Kong Jian shouldn't be better than Du monks (who's at least twice as good as other Kong monks),

Just a few comments:

1. How do we know the Du monks are at least twice as good as the other Kong monks?

2. Kongjian is so much more enlightened than the other Kong monks, it's not even funny. Usually enlightenment and martial arts mastery go hand in hand.

[yittz]

Does the book say how good he is compared to Du monks?

He appears to be a favourite of his martial uncle Du.s

[yittz]

Just a few comments:

1. How do we know the Du monks are at least twice as good as the other Kong monks?

2. Kongjian is so much more enlightened than the other Kong monks, it's not even funny. Usually enlightenment and martial arts mastery go hand in hand.

Cause the weakest Du is above YX + YTZ, and Kong Xing is about similar to that. Maybe not at least, roughly twice, cause Kong Wen may be better than Kong Xing. But to me Kong Xing appears more enlightened than Kong Zhi and maybe Kong Wen.

[MisterM]

Does the book say how good he is compared to Du monks?

He appears to be a favourite of his martial uncle Du.s

AFAIK not directly however at least in the 1st edition it was mentioned that Kongjian was the only person in Shaolin during his time that actually used Shaolins 1/3 of the 9yang as his internal energy cultivation (his student Cheng Kun then also learned this skill) which would probably give him a edge against the Du generation monks (this seems to fit with at least the 2nd edition) plus the fact that he was apparently the only one at Shaolin good enough to learn their Diamond Armor Invincible Body skill which seemed to be very famous always gave me the impression that he should have been at the very least somewhat better than one of the Du generation monks eventhough he was younger.
And yes I think I remember some kind of comment in HSDS about Kong Jian beeing the 3 Du generation monks favourite which is why they were so intent on capturing Xie Xun.

[K2Grey]

By the Du monks, are you counting the most powerful Du monk, or are you taking all 3 of them simultaneously?

[MisterM]

By the Du monks, are you counting the most powerful Du monk, or are you taking all 3 of them simultaneously?

The most powefull. I think all 3 of them together should definitely be more powerful, however we know that one of the 3 Du monks lost to the old leader of the Ming sect (the one before ZWJ, his name was Yang Potian), we also know that Xie Xun as one of the 4 Great Protection Lords of the Ming sect obviously must have known the old leader (considering that he wanted Xie Xun to succeed him as leader of the Ming sect in the event of his death they should have actually been quite close?), yet when Xie Xun met Reverend Kong Jian at first he believed that Kong Jian was a ghost because he couldn't imagine anyone having that high martial arts, thus it can be seen that Kong Jian should have been better than Yang Potian who was better than 1 of the 3 Du monks.

[K2Grey]

That's Yang Dingtian, you might be mixing him up with Shi Potian.

[MisterM]

That's Yang Dingtian, you might be mixing him up with Shi Potian.

Doh, I think your right! I know that name seemed kind of strange to me when I typed it.

[lthlth]

That's Yang Dingtian, you might be mixing him up with Shi Potian.

Actually it was Yang Potian in the first edition. Xie xun said that Kong Jian Fa Shi was the best of all the three Kong monks.

I really admire Kong Jian monk. Really compassionate and he was willing to sacrifice his life to cross over Xie xun. Later on, in a palm exchange, I think Xie xun said that he didn't kill Zhang Cui Shan because he recalled master Kong Jian.

[Whsie]

I think Xuanci is about the level of one of the Du generation.

Also, that match was only 1 of the Du Generation (the strongest one who lost one of his eye) against YangDintian. If it was 3 on 1 or even 2 on 1, then Yang DT would have gotten destroyed.

Even though I don't agree with yitz's XF>ZWJ, but even so, anyone would at least recongnize that the difference is tiny. Therefore the comparision doesn't make much of a difference.

[Extremer88]

Anyone knows who voted for "someone else"?

[druid]

Orginally posted by Yittz

But to me Kong Xing appears more enlightened than Kong Zhi and maybe Kong Wen.

Dont really know much about Kong Zhi and Kong Wen... but for Kong Xing...(he was the one using dragon claws on Brightness Peak?) and Kong Sheng, i dont really think they were "more enlightened". Firstly as a monk, both had thoughts of killing. Please correct me if i'm wrong... but Kong Sheng actually ordered some of the Six major secs to finish off the Ming Cult when YTZ was unable to fight? Also, Kong Xing actually said that he could not let someone so (evil)? live? It was directed at ZWJ I think... and something about breaking the vow to kill... Other Shaolin monks such as those in DGSD and XAJH did not habour such thoughts and display such actions AFAIK...

Kong Jian was much, much more enlightened as compared to the other Kong generation monks...

[yittz]

Apart from Kong Jian, they were all hypocrites. I am going by what Jin Yong said at the peak battle, where Kong Xing was described as 'suang', not sure how to translate it , but seems to me as straight forward. Bad image of Kong Zhi, because he deemed Kong Wen more important than the rest of Wulin. To me none of these monks were proper (like Fang Zhang and Kong Jian), they lacked the 'kong' as in their generation. Cared too much for worldly things like image etc...

[Loke-Gao-Zhu]

i voted for someone else

the strongest monks in shaolin are the anonymous old ones who lives in the deep part of the temple