ZWJ's true art: 9 Yang Internal+QKDLY+Tai Chi gong

[Whsie]

how is my thread off topic again?
Anyway, the answer.
ZZR had the whole manual, but she learned the "shortcut" way, which wasn't pure and considerably weaker than Lady Yang's 9 Yin Claw.
Second, ZZR never married Song ChinSu. She was merely manipulating him to anger ZWJ. And no, Song ChinSu didn't learn XL18Z in the book. Yes, that crap in the 02 Adaptation was pure crap.

[Ahoxan]

Back to topic then...

I think Zhang Wuji had the best set.

Main: 9 Yang, QKDLY, Tai Chi
Skill: Kong Tong 7 Fist, Shaolin 36 Dragon Claw, Wudan Tai-Chi Fist/Sword....... and a bunch of others he learned from fighting their exponents.

Wuji wasn't agressive, but he had plenty of offensive techniques at his disposal.
QKDLY allowed him to learn his opponents' skill in-depth... The Shaolin priest he fought and learn the 36 Dragon Claw from even said Wuji's Dragon Claw was better than his own.

I'm unclear whether his Yin internal strength is up to par with his Yang internal strength.

IMHO, Wuji is certainly able to defeat all the other Jin-Yong characters except Dugu Quibai, Sweeper Monk, and maybe Shi Potian (Mongrel).

I need to finish reading "Ode To Gallantry" to be sure. I only have the "Google Translate" version of the last three chapters. I only skimmed them, because it's a lot of work to read the computer generated translations.

[flamer]

What's the difference between Tai Chi and Tai-Chi Fist/Sword?

Personally I wouldn't count 7 Injury Fist, Dragon Claw as ZWJ skills. I will count Persian arts though.

So you think ZWJ can defeat Xuzhu, Duan Yu, Xiao Feng, Xiaoyao Elders etc...

2-year old thread, yay.

[AnhHung]

About 7 Hurt fist and Dragon claw, I agree that they are awesom offense MA that ZWJ, not only knew, but master. He never used them after Ming peak though. I believe that he find them not his to use. XX stole the 7 Hurt fist, using it would be wrong. Dragon claw, he learnt it in a fight, not been proberly taught.

So we shouldn count them on ZWJ's MA set. Otherwise he would have collected all (well, all that matters) of wulin's MA in a few years.

Crazy idea: ZWJ going around in wulin collecting every MA he could come over, and TVB sends him into a syclon during a storm, and he travel back in time and becomes the founder of Carefree sect. Thats how they got the library of all of wulin's MA.

To TVB producers: if this idea is ever to make it to the screen, I want 50% of commersial income and a cameo in the series (with an awsome death scene).

Edit: Dang!!! Flamer got ahead of me while im messing around my adaptation idea.

[Ahoxan]

Flamer,

As I see it... Tai-Chi is the Martial Arts Philosophy Wuji learned from Master Zhang SanFeng along with all the other Martial Arts pointers during the month long stay at Wu Dan. Whereas, Tai-Chi Fist/Sword are specific sets of skills Wuji learned that night upon first returning to Wu Dan after the victory at Ming Mountain. He fought Zhao Min's lackies, using Tai-Chi fist to destroy and cripple the Western Shaolin monk (who crippled 3rd & 6th uncle) and Tai-Chi sword to defeat the master swordsman.


AnhHung,

I think Wuji is basically non-agressive... so he tends to not use his more lethal skills. I don't think he regards any of his skills as "stolen".

After all, most of his Martial Arts were learned on his own... without any official teaching. He had no official teachers. The only skill specifically taught to him was Tai-Chi Sword.

Of his major Martial Arts... 9 Yang & QKDLY were learned from manuscripts... Only Tai-Chi Martial Arts philosophy was taught to him personally by Zhang SanFeng.

And you're right about how ludicrous it would be to think of Wuji going around picking fights just to pick up more sets of MA Skills... It just wouldn't fit with his non-agressive personallity. He wouldn't even think of it, even after having seen Zhao Min collecting skills from imprisoning the members of the 5/6 sects at that temple.

[flamer]

So... 9 Yang and QKDNY are not specfic sets of skills?

[Ahoxan]

Just my interpretation.

9 Yang,
as written in the book, is a method of internal energy cultivation. From various snippets, we read that the "energy" can re-act against force applied to Wuji and protect him. It doesn't appear to have a specific set of moves to strike or defend.

QKDLY,
appears to have 7 levels of attainments. Wuji mastered them all except for 19 lines when he first studied it. He later mastered the 19 lines after getting the correct translations from the "Fire Tablets" with Shiao-Shiao's help. It appears to be techniques for reversing opponents' moves against them. It also seems to help Wuji comprehend and learn Martial Arts skills quickly.

Tai-Chi gong,
HSDS book translation mentions techniques, but not specific moves. I'm not certain if any internal energy cultivation is involved. It seems to use "circular" techniques to redirect opponents' force. More emphasis is placed on "re-direction" rather than the QKDLY's "reversal" emphasis.


Of course, these are Jing-Yong's fictional Martial Arts... without even rudimentary manuals that more modern writers sometimes develop for their books.
We have nothing concrete to base our opinions on... just a bunch of snippets from the books that are sometimes contradictory. Jin-Yong wrote his books in the pre-wordprocessor era, as serial installments for newspapers... so contradictions and mistakes creeps in when his memory fails him.

Another reason why it's fun to debate Wuxia "facts"...

[person135]

the way I see it, ZWJ just forgot about dragon claws and the other skills he learend.

and for XF, I think xl28z, which he was using throughout DGSD, is better than XL18z.

[person135]

he could have used dragon claws or 7 injury fist. I think he just forgot about them.

[Ahoxan]

ZWJ doesn't seem to forget anything of the Martial Arts & Skills he's learned.

During his last fight with the two Xuang Ming elders (Chapter 39 – The Hidden Military Strategy Manual), He used his intrinsic set of of three Arts. He utilized 7 Injury Fist, Tai-Chi Fist, as well as Shaolin Dragon Claws on them.

True to his non-aggressive nature, He used QKDLY to trick them into fighting each other instead of just finishing them off with his own hands and Martial Arts.

[person135]

by forget I don't mean forget as in forgetting how to use the skills. I mean forget to use them. that's why I said forgot about them.

[kyss of the sword]

Just my interpretation.

9 Yang,
as written in the book, is a method of internal energy cultivation. From various snippets, we read that the "energy" can re-act against force applied to Wuji and protect him. It doesn't appear to have a specific set of moves to strike or defend.

QKDLY,
appears to have 7 levels of attainments. Wuji mastered them all except for 19 lines when he first studied it. He later mastered the 19 lines after getting the correct translations from the "Fire Tablets" with Shiao-Shiao's help. It appears to be techniques for reversing opponents' moves against them. It also seems to help Wuji comprehend and learn Martial Arts skills quickly.

Tai-Chi gong,
HSDS book translation mentions techniques, but not specific moves. I'm not certain if any internal energy cultivation is involved. It seems to use "circular" techniques to redirect opponents' force. More emphasis is placed on "re-direction" rather than the QKDLY's "reversal" emphasis.


Of course, these are Jing-Yong's fictional Martial Arts... without even rudimentary manuals that more modern writers sometimes develop for their books.
We have nothing concrete to base our opinions on... just a bunch of snippets from the books that are sometimes contradictory. Jin-Yong wrote his books in the pre-wordprocessor era, as serial installments for newspapers... so contradictions and mistakes creeps in when his memory fails him.

Another reason why it's fun to debate Wuxia "facts"...

the 19 lines that ZWJ skipped were not wrong translation from Persian. they were mistakes from the creator who never completed QKDNY's seventh level. the creator had reached sixth level but was unable to proceed further due to lack of inner power. so he theorized how to practice the seventh level. QKDNY was sort of incomplete at the final level and ZWJ was the first to complete it due to having 9yang. those 19 lines should not be followed at all for you will fire deviate and die. the fire tablets were a different set of skills created by the old man of the mountain who founded the hassassin/assassin sect. it contains strange moves that are very effective with QKDNY.

ZWJ did not use seven injury fist against the xuan ming elders because it was a heavy inner power dependent skill and he was dividing his inner power to help his lovers while fighting against the xuan ming elders. they were too skilled to fight with a half-force strike. plus seven injury fist needs circulation of all kinds of energy from the body, can't use it while dividing your energy. dragon claws was suitable for fending of the opponents till his lovers were cured. then he could use his top skill.

[Ahoxan]

Thanks for the corrections "kyss of the sword".

I got mixed up with the differences between the book and the TV adaptations. One of the problems with reading the book after having watched multiple adaptations.

Sheng Huo Ling’s martial art from the fire tablet was described by Jin-Yong as the earlier and less powerful version of QKDLY as written by the "Old Man Of The Mountain", but it had a large repetoire of ingenious and tricky moves. Wuji managed to combine the two during his months long stay on the deserted island with Xie Xun and Zhirou. I didn't see any mention of Wuji correcting and mastering those 19 lines incorrectly postulated by the QKDLY creator.

You're also right about Wuji not using 7 Fists during his last fight with the Xuang Ming elders... Which begs the question: "Would Wuji have used the 18 Dragon Palms if he knew it?". It seems like he would have preferred it with the "precise control of internal power" that he can use to precisely limit the the amount of damage to his opponents.


Other points...
Wuji had the 9 Jin manual by the end of the book. I doubt that he would be interested enough to train it... but.
If he trained the 9 Jin internal strength cultivation, would he be able to merge the profound Yin & Yang energy like Shi Potian did in "Ode To Gallantry"?
Would the Martial Arts in the 9 JIn... like "White Bone Claw" be incompatible if he used Yang internal strength instead of Yin internal strength?
These points are of course speculative... with no way to verify any conclusions. Just fun points to ponder.

[tape]

Just a point, Wudang had already been known for using soft to overcome hard, redirecting and manipulating force, and using an enemy's strength against them way before Zhang Real Man officially invented Taichi Fist/Sword. The philosophy doesn't seem to be unique to Taichi, but I suppose it does it best or something.

[person135]

well ZWJ could have learned XL18Z if he wanted to at the end of HSDS.

[kyss of the sword]

with 9yang and QKDNY techniques to use inner power, there's no reason why he could not master HL18Z, he never had the opportunity. in lastest revision.

[bliss]

Why was Linghu Chong left out of the discussion? By the end of XAJH, he had quite an impressive array of martial arts as well:

The ultimate offensive MA - Dugu 9 Jian
Abundant internal MA - Yijinjing
Wildcard/Game-changing MA - Xixing Dafa

BTW ... since the 3rd editions I think, Xixing Dafa was said to be the remnants of Beiming Shengong. Coupled with the purity of Yijinjing, do you think Linghu Chong's Xixing Dafa would've reached a level similar to where Beiming Zhenqi was?

[Xiao Feng]

Actually, the 2 people who should really be in this discussion is Xu Zhu and Duan Yu.

Xu Zhu essentially has access to the breadth and depth of Xiao Yao Pai's incredible martial arts.

Duan Yu has a fraction of BMSG (which is already superior to Xi Xing Da Fa), out of this world lightness kung fu in LBWB and arguably the best offensive skill ever in 6MSJ.