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Thread: A parallel worlds theory to explain divergent Jin Yong continuity

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default A parallel worlds theory to explain divergent Jin Yong continuity

    Jin Yong was not a science fiction writer, but perhaps the science fiction concept of parallel worlds...or a multiverse....might help to explain a few continuity discrepancies among his novels, especially between DEMIGODS & SEMIDEVILS and the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY versus DEMIGODS & SEMIDEVILS and STATE OF DIVINITY.

    A straight reading of Jin Yong's continuity begins with DGSD during the Northern Sung Dynasty, proceeds through the Southern Sung Dynasty with LEGEND OF THE CONDOR HEROES and RETURN OF THE CONDOR HEROES, moves forward to the Yuan Dynasty with HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE, progresses into the Ming Dynasty with STATE OF DIVINITY and CRIMSON SABRE, and ends up in the Qing Dynasty with DUKE OF MT. DEER, FLYING FOX OF SNOWY MOUNTAIN, and BOOK & SWORD: GRATITUDE & REVENGE. Close readers of Jin Yong have noted, however, that there exist several significant discrepancies between DGSD's connection to the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY and DGSD's connection to STATE OF DIVINITY. For example, many of the significant martial arts that appear in SOD are watered down or modified versions of martial arts that appeared in DGSD, but none of the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY martial arts (or characters or events) were referenced in SOD. SOD often feels like it occurs in a shared universe with DGSD, but not with the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY, which is illogical because the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY is explicitly connected to DGSD as well.

    It is illogical unless one accepts the theory of a multiverse.

    DGSD being the earliest story in Jin Yong continuity (although one of the last to be written), it is the root of that continuity. I propose, however, that sometime after the end of DGSD, the Jin Yong timeline split into two divergent branches: one branch led into the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY, and the other branch proceeded through the Southern Sung Dynasty (possibly WITHOUT the events of the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY), Yuan Dynasty, and Ming Dynasty into SOD.

    The point of divergence is most likely the life and career of Dook Goo Kau Bai, which post-dated DGSD and pre-dated the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY. Dook Goo Kau Bai is the turning point because he is the only point of reference (other than the existence of the Mo Dong Sect and the Ngor Mei Sect in SOD, which might not necessarily be descended from the Mo Dong Sect and Ngor Mei Sect of HSDS because there was no explicit reference to HSDS Mo Dong and Ngor Mei characters or events in SOD) shared by SOD and the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY. The Dook Goo Kau Bai referenced in SOD practiced Dook Goo 9 Swords, but might or might not have practiced the Heavy Iron Sword Technique. The Dook Goo Kau Bai referenced in ROCH practiced the Heavy Iron Sword Technique, but might or might not have practiced Dook Goo 9 Swords. Thus, using the multiverse model, during Dook Goo Kau Bai's life and career, the Jin Yong world split into two timelines:

    Jin Yong Earth-1 became the world of THE CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY. Hong Lung 18 Palms, Dog Beating Stick Technique, and 1 Yeung Finger Technique survived from DGSD into this world, but the Siu Yiu Sect martial arts and Shaolin's Yik Gun Ging did not. JY Earth-1 developed such martial arts systems as the Heavy Iron Sword Technique, the 9 Yum Jen Ging, the 9 Yeung Jen Ging, the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee, Cheun Jen Sect martial arts, Ancient Tomb Sect martial arts, Peach Blossom Island martial arts, and White Camel Mountain martial arts. Qwai Fa Bo Deen, however, did *not* develop on JY Earth-1. Instead, it developed on JY Earth-2...the world where STATE OF DIVINITY occurred.

    On JY Earth-2, the Siu Yiu Sect martial arts and Shaolin's Yik Gun Ging survived into the Ming Dynasty, albeit highly modified, and instead of the Heavy Iron Sword Technique being discovered by Yeung Gor during the Southern Sung Dynasty, Dook Goo 9 Swords was discovered by Fung Ching Yeung during the Ming Dynasty. On Jin Yong Earth-2, the fates of Hong Lung 18 Palms, Dog Beating Stick Technique, and 1 Yeung Finger Technique after DGSD were unknown, and other CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY martial arts such as the 9 Yum Jen Ging, the 9 Yeung Jen Ging, and the martial arts of the Greats and the Ming Cult never existed. In their place were the Qwai Fa Bo Deen and the Pik Che Sword Technique.

    Interestingly, the divergent timelines come back together during the Qing Dynasty, because in DOMD, there are references to both the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY (West Poison Au Yeung Fung's corpse-dissolving acid) and SOD (Ling Wu Chung was mentioned as one of Wai Siu Bo's childhood heroes).

    Jin Yong likely didn't think about any of these things at all, and it's certainly not canon, but the multiverse model is an interesting way to look at a few continuity discrepancies in the Jin Yong world.

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    Senior Member kidd's Avatar
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    Where to insert Crimson Sabre (aka Sword Stained With Royal Blood/Bi Xue Jian) and Ode To Gallantry (aka Xia Ke Xing)?
    Last edited by kidd; 05-29-06 at 01:58 AM.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    So is GJ > YG in all the alternate realities?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd
    Whether to insert Crimson Sabre (aka Sword Stained With Royal Blood/Bi Xue Jian) and Ode To Gallantry (aka Xia Ke Xing)?
    Crimson Sabre could be Earth-2 (I think there were SOD reference in there). If not, it could be Earth-1 or Earth-2. If its events contradict those of THE CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY *and* SOD, however, it could be on a JY Earth-3.

    ODE TO GALLANTRY almost certainly happens on a JY Earth-3.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    So is GJ > YG in all the alternate realities?
    Well, I'd think Gwok Jing and Yeung Gor existed on the JY Earth-1 timeline only; neither existed on JY Earth-2.

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    Senior Member kidd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    ODE TO GALLANTRY almost certainly happens on a JY Earth-3.
    I think OTG can squeeze into Earth-1. It did mention Z3F (I'm certain) and Emei (I think) and Xie Yan Ke know a finger flicking skill that has the same name as HYS's.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd
    I think OTG can squeeze into Earth-1. It did mention Z3F (I'm certain) and Emei (I think) and Xie Yan Ke know a finger flicking skill that has the same name as HYS's.
    That should be enough to qualify it for Earth-1 status.

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    Senior Member Yang Guo's Avatar
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    This is beginning to sound more like giving them citizenship for different countries :P

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    Senior Member HuangYushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    For example, many of the significant martial arts that appear in SOD are watered down or modified versions of martial arts that appeared in DGSD, but none of the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY martial arts (or characters or events) were referenced in SOD.
    Would you consider the possibility that the significant martial arts of the Trilogy had somehow become extinct [i.e. 'sat chyun' / 失传]?

    For example: the 18 Dragon Palms and the Dog-Beating Stick. The last adult Beggar Clan leader who knew the Dragon Palms (albeit only 12 of them) and presumably the Dog-Beating Stick died an untimely death. His daughter would probably not know the Dog-Beating Stick unless she was earmarked for succession earlier on; she certainly would not have the physique and internal strength to learn the Dragon Palms.

    The only known outsider (non Beggar-Clan member) who knew the Dog-Beating Stick was Yang Guo in ROCH. He could have passed it to his descendants in the Ancient Tomb, but it is quite unlikely since the technique was the sole domain of the Beggar Clan leader. It would have been very un-"xia" in terms of principles to pass it on.

    So after Shi Huolong's death, both the Dragon Palms and the Dog-Beating Stick were gone.

    As for the clan itself, it was already quite weak by HSDS; that was why it was infiltrated by Cheng Kun's minions, such as Chen Youliang. Once a clan becomes weak and its key martial arts are extinct, its members would invariably scatter. Over time, the numbers would have dwindled, taking with it the clan's reputation and prestige.

    So by SOD, the Beggar Clan might not have been a force to be reckoned with any more.

    With the decline of the Beggar Clan and the rise of other orgnisations (e.g. the Sun-Moon Sect and the Sword Schools of the Five Mountains), it might not be such a surprise that key martial arts and characters from the Trilogy are not referenced in SOD.

    ---

    Now, let's turn things around a bit.

    If key martial arts and characters from the Trilogy were referenced in SOD, what form would these references take? The Trilogy was built on the background of selfless patriotism, but in SOD, personal ambition was the theme. Is it possible for a character with sky-high personal ambitions in SOD to hold a selfless and patriotic Trilogy character up as a reference?

    Just rambling...
    Jin Yong's Ode to Gallantry [侠客行].
    Quote Originally Posted by atlantean0208
    what about SPT, I need my SPT fix ASAP, pretty pleaseeeee...
    Soon ... SOON!

  10. #10
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuangYushi
    Would you consider the possibility that the significant martial arts of the Trilogy had somehow become extinct [i.e. 'sat chyun' / 失传]?
    Or, JY Earth-1 and JY Earth-2 diverged even earlier than the time of Dook Goo Kau Bai, perhaps during the time of DGSD itself.

    It's possible that two versions of DGSD occurred, one on Earth-1 and the other on Earth-2. That might explain why the SOD versions of Yik Gun Ging and Kup Sing Dai Fat were so different from their DGSD counterparts.

  11. #11
    Senior Member kidd's Avatar
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    Kap Sing Dai Fat was in DGSD?
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Senior Member HuangYushi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd
    Kap Sing Dai Fat was in DGSD?
    Yes, as "Beiming Shengong". See below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Athena's post on 3rd ed changes
    [Xixing Dafa] was derived from the Xiaoyao School's [Beiming Shengong]. Ren Woxing told Linghu Chong that the practitioner of Beiming was a member of the Duan family during the Northern Song dynasty. This emperor Duan originally did not like the idea of stealing other people's internal strength. But after reading the will of that Xiaoyao elder, emperor Duan understood that there are no really evil martial arts. A good person using Beiming to kill evil men is doing good.
    Xixing Dafa has no connections with Huagong Dafa.
    Jin Yong's Ode to Gallantry [侠客行].
    Quote Originally Posted by atlantean0208
    what about SPT, I need my SPT fix ASAP, pretty pleaseeeee...
    Soon ... SOON!

  13. #13
    Senior Member kidd's Avatar
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    Oic. So, Duan Yu did left behind one of his powerful martial art.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Senior Member Extremer88's Avatar
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    There are so many discrepancies, loopholes and links related to all the JY novels... Now, I have so many questions left wanting to be answered...

    Regarding OTG

    Shaolin, Damo and ZSF is also mentioned.

    Xueshan Pai was mentioned to have at least 100-120 years of existence, but there's no mention of Xueshan Pai in SOD/XAJH. So was it established right after the events of SOD??? So how long is the gap between SOD/XAJH and OTG- if yes it can't be that long??? Do they link together? Do they link to Crimson Sabre?

    And Xueshan Pai (Snowy-Mountain Sect) was also mentioned in a JY novel set in the Qing Dynasty (can't remember which - should be Flying Fox series...) So there's link between the OTG and the Qing Dynasty novels.... But in the first place was there any link between Linked Cities and Book & Sword/Flying Fox series apart from that Wu Liuqi guy from DOMD???

    So if the rumours of the Peach Blossom Island being the Ode to Gallantry Island is true, does it means it qualifies for Earth-1 with CONDOR TRILOGY?

    Regarding SOD

    Apart from Xixing Dafa and Yijin Jing linked to DGSD. Qingcheng Sect also appeared in DGSD and SOD/XAJH. But was Qingcheng Sect mentioned or appeared in the CONDOR TRILOGY? Was it the same Qingcheng Sect???

    Kuihua Baodian was said to be created 300 years before SOD/XAJH by a powerful Eunuch .. 300 years before means it was in the Northern Song/Southern Song or Song Dynasty.... So was KHBD possibly created by Huang Shang (he was not a eunuch, but there might be this possiblity) or by one of his friends or surbodinates in the palace???

    But wait, some speculated that DGQB fought with Huang Shang before, so if Huang Shang was related to KHBD, so maybe he himself can clarify whether there is ONE DGQB or TWO DGQB in the world???

    If this KHBD incident is true (created by HS or his friends/surbodinates) - does this means CONDOR TRILOGY is related to SOD/XAJH???

    What about Huashan Sect? Huashan Sect was founded by Hao Datong (who also appeared in the CONDOR TRILOGY, and Huashan Sect was shown in SOD/XAJH, so was there link between SOD/XAJH and the CONDOR TRILOGY?

    Plus, Ouyang Feng and Linghu Chong being mentioned together in DOMD, so is DOMD the only novel to be link with BOTH EARTHS???

    There are just too many questions - and luckily, JY managed to linked some of it together in the Third Edition novels...
    ..ext88

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    Senior Member kidd's Avatar
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    Is cow's nose a common term to call a taoist? I've heard/read this term mention in SOD and OTG? Does this helps continuity?

    Also, there's a taoist named Chong Xu in OTG. I remember the taoist who fought with LHC in SOD was also Chong Xu, right? But the Chong Xu in OTG is not from Wudang.
    Last edited by kidd; 05-29-06 at 11:04 PM.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Senior Member kidd's Avatar
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    Qing Cheng Sect was also mentioned in OTG. As we know, Qing Cheng Sect was the sect that massacred the Lin family in SOD.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    What changed after the Crises?

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    IMO, i think that SOD have some important connections with HSDS... so much so that i feel that it may belong to Earth 1...

    1) the presence of Taiji sword alone would connect SOD with HSDS since it was in HSDS that Taiji first appeared.

    2) Hushan Sec was one of the six major sec in HSDS and also a main Sec in SOD.

    3) ZLC and WYX's palm's name; Han Bing Zhang are very similar and maybe the same...

    4) In SOD, a wooden sword was returned to Wudang towards the end of the novel yes? Some have speculated that this wooden sword actually belongs to ZSF when he first created the swordplay... Can anyone comfirm this or correct it?
    " Forgo your past and embrance the future OR abandon your future to save your past?"

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Chen
    What changed after the Crises?
    Dennis, are you a DC Comics fan as well?

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    Senior Member JigSta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng
    Dennis, are you a DC Comics fan as well?
    I was just thinking that this sounded like the DC (and Marvel) universe.

    Didn't Superboy prime punch reality or something? :P
    All that's needed to say have been said, why say anything more? The man is drunk, why stay any longer?....
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