Who can clearly defeat your favorite hero at the height of his powers?

[Ken Cheng]

We all have favorite characters in wuxia stories. Undoubtedly, our liking for particular characters causes us to favor them in martial arts comparison discussions. Sometimes, it gets a little extreme, and we make claims about our favorite characters being invincible when it's not actually the case.

So in this thread, we're going to be listing characters who can clearly defeat our favorite character when the latter is at the height of his power.

My favorite character in the Jin Yong canon is Gwok Jing. At the end of ROCH, he is one of the five Greats and it's *possible* (but not proven) that he might have been the greatest of the five. Even if he were, however, these characters could still definitely defeat him:

1. The Janitor Monk (DGSD)
2. Siu Yiu Sect Elders (DGSD)
3. Hui Juk (DGSD)
4. Deun Yu (DGSD)

Your turn.

[zhouyu]

My favorite is Xiao Feng, and he also will probably be beaten by the same four person you mention. However, the only doubt I have is Duan Yu, since hes not the same fighter Xiao Feng is. Xu Zhu improved a lot since his fight with Great Wheel Monk that you can see at the end, he is a great fighter, along with his unstoppable inner power. Duan Yu also improved, but not nearly in the same level as his two older brother.

[K2Grey]

My favorite char may be Duan Yu. I am not sure if there are 5 people who can defeat him, but it's hard to say since it's not clear how much inner power he has and it's not clear whether he gets good at fighting or not. I would say that the Sweeper Monk, Xu Zhu, and the 3 Xiao Yao Sect Elders may be able to defeat him even at the height of his powers or give him a hard time.

[PJ]

My favorite hero at the moment is the Sweeper Monk and he is undefeatable. Mwaaaahaha.

[Ken Tran]

My favorite character in the CHT is Gwok Jing. The only person who can beat up Gwok Jing in his prime is Yang Guo.

Book it!

[Dennis Chen]

Wang Chongyang. In his lifetime, nobody could defeat him.

[kidd]

My favourite JY canon character is Shi Po Tian.

Hmm, I think the following can defeat him

- Sweeper Monk
- Xu Zhu

Not sure about others.

[PJ]

Wang Chongyang. In his lifetime, nobody could defeat him.

I think that just before Lin Chaoying passed away, she might have been able to defeat him. In terms of overall martial arts, he was still probably superior; however she invented this new style strictly to overcome his style. Yang Guo, when his martial arts was not even remotely close to the level of Zhao Zhijing or Yin Zhiping, managed to defeat them using Jade Maiden. So I think that Lin Chaoying could have overcome Wang Chongyang before he grasped 9 Yin.

And here is a quote from the text to back that up:

王重阳但见玉女心经中所述武功精微奥妙，每一招都是全真武功的克星，不由得脸如死灰，当即退了 出来。 他独入深山，结了一间茅芦，一连三年足不出山，精研这玉女心经的破法，虽然小处也有成就，但始终组不成一套 包蕴内外、融会贯串的武学。

[Ken Tran]

Wang Chongyang. In his lifetime, nobody could defeat him.

Nah, Lin Chaoying can tear his arse up!

[Ken Cheng]

Nah, Lin Chaoying can tear his arse up!

Actually, she couldn't. She figured out a way to counter his Cheun Jen Sect techniques, but couldn't defeat the man himself. Odd, isn't it?

That's why no matter what things say on paper, in theory, nothing is really proven without a fight.

[PJ]

Actually, she couldn't. She figured out a way to counter his Cheun Jen Sect techniques, but couldn't defeat the man himself. Odd, isn't it?

That's why no matter what things say on paper, in theory, nothing is really proven without a fight.

She died shortly after perfecting her style. I don't think she had a chance to fight Wang Chongyang with her newly acquired greatness.

[Ken Cheng]

She died shortly after perfecting her style. I don't think she had a chance to fight Wang Chongyang with her newly acquired greatness.

I think Jin Yong did remark explicitly that although Lam Chiu Ying had achieved theoretical superiority to Wong Chung Yeung with her techniques, she nevertheless would not be able to defeat him if they were to actually fight again (new techniques or no new techniques). It's a strange paradox that I don't completely understand, but it's been presented at this forum on several previous occassions.

[ChronoReverse]

Jade Maiden was something that WCY had absolutely no counter for. He would've lost to Jade Maiden... except that it was impossible for LCY to perform it on her own.

The rest of Ancient Tomb martial arts was a direct counter to QZ martial arts, but supposedly LCY couldn't overcome WCY himself.

[IcyFox]

My favorite hero at the moment is the Sweeper Monk and he is undefeatable. Mwaaaahaha.

I think you must have forgotten about old Mr. Dugu.

I think Jin Yong did remark explicitly that although Lam Chiu Ying had achieved theoretical superiority to Wong Chung Yeung with her techniques, she nevertheless would not be able to defeat him if they were to actually fight again (new techniques or no new techniques).

Why not?

[Ken Cheng]

I think you must have forgotten about old Mr. Dugu.

Actually, I'm almost sure that the Janitor Monk would defeat Dook Goo Kau Bai. As impressive as Dook Goo Kau Bai's legacy is (assuming that one believes him), it still falls within the realm of martial arts. The Janitor Monk, however, seemingly transcended martial arts and was doing something else altogether. Call it divine power, call it what you will, but it seemed beyond what we understand to be martial arts as human beings practice it.

Why not?

Only Jin Yong knows. It doesn't make much sense to me either, but that's what he apparently wrote.

[PJ]

In my own unofficial ranking of the martial artists, I rank the Sweeper Monk at 1000 points, Dugu Qiubai at about 190 points. These numbers are in scale.

Dugu Qiubai shouldn't be much better than Yang Guo or Ren Woxing (there are several implications in the novel).

[IcyFox]

Only Jin Yong knows. It doesn't make much sense to me either, but that's what he apparently wrote.

I must look into that. Because that doesn't appear in the English translation. Either we left it out when translating (as we did with many other things) or probably you heard wrongly, which I think it's unlikely.

[PJ]

Welcome back to the forum, IcyFox.

[kyss of the sword]

originally posted by ken cheng
I think Jin Yong did remark explicitly that although Lam Chiu Ying had achieved theoretical superiority to Wong Chung Yeung with her techniques, she nevertheless would not be able to defeat him if they were to actually fight again (new techniques or no new techniques). It's a strange paradox that I don't completely understand, but it's been presented at this forum on several previous occassions

it's the same case as when YG fought LMC at the inn. he used the 9yin left by WCY to beat ancient tomb but as LMC was still a level or two higher, he couldn't beat her. he was able to block every attack in advance but eventually she would have won. if YG practised till he was the same level, his attacks would have beaten her. YG was able to beat zhuo zhijing and yin yiping at the waterfall because they weren't much better then him through they were actually superior at that time. when LCY and WCY fought for the tomb, he was better by at least half a level. after that they would have improved at the same rate just like the greats did. so she wasn't able to catch up even with her new skill. both of them should have reached the level of sword and heart as one, essence over form; and sword moving freely and formlessly. sword form has little restriction for them so it came down to individual ability and she was still a little behind.

[Ken Cheng]

In my own unofficial ranking of the martial artists, I rank the Sweeper Monk at 1000 points, Dugu Qiubai at about 190 points. These numbers are in scale.

So in other words, five Dook Goo Kau Bais would not be sufficient to match the Janitor Monk, but six would defeat him?