QQR versus XuanMing Elders

[augster123]

Who will win: QQR (iron palms and "floating over water" lightness skills) versus the XuanMing Elders (intense-yin powered poisoned palms)? Discuss.

[TommyH]

QQR was never really Greats' level. He reached close but never was. And are the XM elders Great level? Even if they weren't and were close they'd beat QQR because there's more than one of them.

[ChronoReverse]

ZWj going all out can handily beat the Elders. QQR at the end of ROCH was only below the rest of the Greats by the slightest sliver.

He also knows how to fight viciously if need be so I'd give the edge to QQR.

[CC]

Besides, QQR had much better inner energy then the XM Elders. So they can't use the full power Xuan Ming Palm on him. QQR easily.

[Whsie]

Yeah, QQR hands down. QQR is about a notch below the Greats. And ZWJ who is at the Great level, was kicking Xuanmin Elders butt (while holding back some) within 30 palms.

[Ken Cheng]

Kau Cheen Yan, no doubt. The only thing that separated him from the Greats was his mentality (had the skill and power of a Great, but not the mindset). As powerful as the Yeun Ming Elders were, they were no match for any Greats-level fighter.

[PJ]

If it was a general martial arts contest, Qiu Qianren would win. One Xuanming Elders would take more than 200 stances to defeat Fan Yao, so that means probably 2 Fan Yao's are enough to tie 1 Xuanming Elder. Which means, 4 Ming Cult Lords would be enough to tie 2 Xuanming Elders. Well, the 4 Ming Cult lords would NOT be able to tie 2 of the weakest of the Du generation monks, whereas Zhang Wuji could, so that means Zhang Wuji > 4 Ming Cult Lords. I doubt that Zhang Wuji would perform better in a fight than Qiu Qianren (depends on the situation), and Zhang Wuji was better than the combined force of 2 Xuan Ming Elders.

However when Xuanming Elders clashed palms with 2 Ming Cult Lord-level fighters, they easily showed their superiority. So that means if it was a straight-up palm clash, Xuanming Elders might win.

[K2Grey]

It sounds about right to say that two Fan Yaos could tie a Xuan Ming Elder, given that Yang Xiao and Yin Tianzheng could nearly tie a Du generation monk and the Du monks are supposed to be somewhat better than the Xuan Ming Elders.

[Whsie]

If it was a general martial arts contest, Qiu Qianren would win. One Xuanming Elders would take more than 200 stances to defeat Fan Yao, so that means probably 2 Fan Yao's are enough to tie 1 Xuanming Elder. Which means, 4 Ming Cult Lords would be enough to tie 2 Xuanming Elders. Well, the 4 Ming Cult lords would NOT be able to tie 2 of the weakest of the Du generation monks, whereas Zhang Wuji could, so that means Zhang Wuji > 4 Ming Cult Lords. I doubt that Zhang Wuji would perform better in a fight than Qiu Qianren (depends on the situation), and Zhang Wuji was better than the combined force of 2 Xuan Ming Elders.

However when Xuanming Elders clashed palms with 2 Ming Cult Lord-level fighters, they easily showed their superiority. So that means if it was a straight-up palm clash, Xuanming Elders might win.

Well, ZWJ actually could easily beat 2 monks IF he tried. If ZWJ was holding back, he was still winning against the 2 strongest monks, but it sure was taking ZWJ a while to finish 2 monks. Lav once came up with something like ZWJ>6 Yin Tianzheng! I don't know if it's correct though.
But the point is, QQR should have a better time to finish off Xuanmin elders than you say.

[augster123]

If it was a general martial arts contest, Qiu Qianren would win. One Xuanming Elders would take more than 200 stances to defeat Fan Yao, so that means probably 2 Fan Yao's are enough to tie 1 Xuanming Elder. Which means, 4 Ming Cult Lords would be enough to tie 2 Xuanming Elders. Well, the 4 Ming Cult lords would NOT be able to tie 2 of the weakest of the Du generation monks, whereas Zhang Wuji could, so that means Zhang Wuji > 4 Ming Cult Lords. I doubt that Zhang Wuji would perform better in a fight than Qiu Qianren (depends on the situation), and Zhang Wuji was better than the combined force of 2 Xuan Ming Elders.

However when Xuanming Elders clashed palms with 2 Ming Cult Lord-level fighters, they easily showed their superiority. So that means if it was a straight-up palm clash, Xuanming Elders might win.

Cult Lords you dont mean as in the Guardian Lords right? cuz i believe that a Brightness Peak Protector (such as Yang Xiao/Fan Yao) is better than a Ming Cult Guardian Lord (Purple Dragon/White Eagle/Golden Lion/Green Bat). so if u meant as in guardian lords, i believe that the Xuanming Elders > 4 Ming Cult Guardian Lords, assuming that 2 Brightness Peak Protectors = 1 Xuanming Elder.

Going back to the topic, this fight i wanna see. ZWJ > QQR right? With the combined force of the Xuanming Elders, I dont think QQR can take this fight easily.

[CC]

QQR's Iron Palms were pretty much Great level kung-fu in power and technique. If he is 95% of GWM and GWM is 95% of GJ and GJ is 95% of ZWJ (just an example), it is still enough to smack the 2 Xuan Ming Elders.

[Extremer88]

If it was a general martial arts contest, Qiu Qianren would win. One Xuanming Elders would take more than 200 stances to defeat Fan Yao, so that means probably 2 Fan Yao's are enough to tie 1 Xuanming Elder. Which means, 4 Ming Cult Lords would be enough to tie 2 Xuanming Elders. Well, the 4 Ming Cult lords would NOT be able to tie 2 of the weakest of the Du generation monks, whereas Zhang Wuji could, so that means Zhang Wuji > 4 Ming Cult Lords. I doubt that Zhang Wuji would perform better in a fight than Qiu Qianren (depends on the situation), and Zhang Wuji was better than the combined force of 2 Xuan Ming Elders.

Erm... actually you can't compare like this, some people fight differently when against certain people.

[PJ]

But the point is, QQR should have a better time to finish off Xuanmin elders than you say.

Umm, I did say Qiu Qianren would win.

But you must remember, Qiu Qianren lost to pre-16 years Yang Guo.

QQR's Iron Palms were pretty much Great level kung-fu in power and technique. If he is 95% of GWM and GWM is 95% of GJ and GJ is 95% of ZWJ (just an example), it is still enough to smack the 2 Xuan Ming Elders.

We must not forget that Xuan Ming Elders' palms, at just 20% of their toxicity level, were well enough to render 2 Ming Cult Lords useless for 1 day. If they had 100% of their toxicity, they could very well have killed Yang Xiao and Wei Yixiao, or render them useless forever. This (along with You Tanzhi's palm) is a very nasty palm style that very few people can hope to clash palms with and actually prevail.

Cult Lords you dont mean as in the Guardian Lords right? cuz i believe that a Brightness Peak Protector (such as Yang Xiao/Fan Yao) is better than a Ming Cult Guardian Lord

Not true.

HSDS chapter 36, Zhang Wuji thought:
张无忌知外公武功深湛，不在杨逍、范遥之下，比舅舅高出甚多

Zhang Wuji knows that his grandfather's martial arts (Yin Tianzheng) is not below that of Yang Xiao or Fan Yao; Yin Tianzheng's martial arts is also much better than his uncle Xie Xun.

Further proof can be found in chapter 24:
一言甫毕，忽听得东边屋角上一人长笑问道：“说不得大师，杨左使到了没有？”这人声音响亮，苍劲豪迈，正是 白眉鹰王殷天正到了。说不得尚未回答，杨逍的笑声已在西边屋角上响起。只听他笑道：“鹰王，毕竟是你老当益 壮，先到了一步。”殷天正笑道：“杨左使不必客气，咱二人同时到达，仍是分不了高下。只怕你还是瞧在张教主 份上，让了我三分。”杨逍道：“当仁不让！在下已竭尽全力，仍是不能快得鹰王一步。”他二人途中较劲，比赛 脚力，殷天正内功较深，杨逍步履轻快，竟是并肩出发，平头齐到。

Rough translation: A voice suddenly laughed: "has Messenger Yang arrived?" This voice was none other than Yin Tianzheng. Before anyone could respond, the sound of Yang Xiao's laughter was already heard: "Eagle Lord, you are still one step ahead of me." Yin Tianzheng laughed again: "Don't be so modest, Messenger Yang. We arrived at the same time, and neither performed better. But you probably did not use your full energy." Yang Xiao said: "I did perform to the best of my abilities, and I was not able to exceed you by one step." Yang Xiao and Yin Tianzheng were competing their feet's competency on the way to here. Yin Tianzheng was better in terms of internal cultivation, whereas Yang Xiao was more impressive in terms of the external footwork display. In the end, they both evenly matched each other.

Erm... actually you can't compare like this, some people fight differently when against certain people.

May I ask then how you propose we should compare fighters across different novels with different personalities??

[augster123]

how well do the other Ming Cult Guardian Lords fare against the Brightness Peak Protectors? is White Eagle the only exception of being able to at least tie a peak protector? and another thing i saw the TVB adaptation of Return of Condor Heroes, and i recalled watching QQR was fighting pre-16 years Yang Guo with both of his hands chained...did that happen in the novel as well? if so, would that prove to be a handicap for QQR in that fight?

in the likely event of palm clashes between QQR and the XM Elders, which one takes the cake? hard-hitting Iron palms or intensely-yin poisoned XuanMing Palms? i can kinda envision that QQR would most likely be using up a lot of his stamina & internal energy to keep using his lightness kungfu to dodge the additional 2 palms from his 2 opponents and to find an opening. And while QQR's relatively high internal energy (what type is it? Yin? Yang? Neutral? was it mentioned?) probably can resist the Xuan Ming Palms' strong toxicity up to a point, can QQR finish off the 2 elders in time before the palm poison accumulates past the level he can handle? cuz as soon as that happens, he'll be in big trouble.

[PJ]

how well do the other Ming Cult Guardian Lords fare against the Brightness Peak Protectors? is White Eagle the only exception of being able to at least tie a peak protector?

Zhang Wuji thought to himself: "Even if I replaced my grandfather and Yang Xiao with the combination of Fan Yao and Wei Yixiao, the result would basically be the same." Since Yang Xiao is about equal to Fan Yao, that means Wei Yixiao must be roughly equal to Yin Tianzheng.

The only thing I'm not sure about is when Zhang Wuji thought that Xie Xun would be inferior to the other lords. We see here how much trouble 2 of the lords had with the weakest of the Du generation monks. Later, we see that Xie Xun was not having much trouble ALONE against a fighter of the Du generation level. This suggests that Xie Xun should only be better than the other lords, but Zhang Wuji's thought contradicts that.

and another thing i saw the TVB adaptation of Return of Condor Heroes, and i recalled watching QQR was fighting pre-16 years Yang Guo with both of his hands chained...did that happen in the novel as well?

In the novel, Qiu Qianren broke free of the handcuffs before engaging in combat with Yang Guo.

[Swordwiz]

PJ:

Actually, ZWJ was not talking about Xie Xun, he was talking about Yin YeWang, his uncle.

HSDS chapter 36, Zhang Wuji thought:
张无忌知外公武功深湛，不在杨逍、范遥之下，比舅舅高出甚多

Hope that clears up the contradiction.

[PJ]

PJ:

Actually, ZWJ was not talking about Xie Xun, he was talking about Yin YeWang, his uncle.




Hope that clears up the contradiction.

Thanks! that makes more sense.

[Dennis Chen]

In terms of hard work and the practice and mastery of his art, Qiu Qianren equals the Greats. Qiu Qianren's mastery of Iron Palms is just as great as Hong Qigong's mastery of XLSBZ and Ouyang Feng's Hama Gong. But in a fight, when things can and do change, when weird martials arts can sometimes come up (like Zhou Botong's L/R technique), Qiu Qianren is not the equal of the Greats. Qiu Qianren could never have made reverse 9 Ying work for him. Nor could he come up with his own martial arts.

[Ken Cheng]

In terms of hard work and the practice and mastery of his art, Qiu Qianren equals the Greats. Qiu Qianren's mastery of Iron Palms is just as great as Hong Qigong's mastery of XLSBZ and Ouyang Feng's Hama Gong. But in a fight, when things can and do change, when weird martials arts can sometimes come up (like Zhou Botong's L/R technique), Qiu Qianren is not the equal of the Greats. Qiu Qianren could never have made reverse 9 Ying work for him. Nor could he come up with his own martial arts.

That's probably all true, and yet, for all that, it would still be relatively easy for Kau Cheen Yan to defeat the Yeun Ming Elders.

[augster123]

That's probably all true, and yet, for all that, it would still be relatively easy for Kau Cheen Yan to defeat the Yeun Ming Elders.

it only will be relatively easy if Kau Cheen Yan has a Yang-based inner power (any one got clarifications yet of the type of his inner power?) else i still can't see how he can handle those strongly-Yin powered toxic palms with ease. Let's not forget that the WuDang 7 Heroes' Yu Lianzhou could withstand one toxic palm only due to the fact that his inner power is based on a quarter understanding of the 9 Yang Manual.