View Poll Results: Who is your most hated villain of both LOCH/ROCH?

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  • Ouyang Feng

    1 1.67%
  • Qiu Qianren

    4 6.67%
  • Genghis Kahn

    1 1.67%
  • Jinlun Guoshi

    0 0%
  • Wanyan Honglie

    11 18.33%
  • Mei Chaofeng

    0 0%
  • Ouyang Ke

    8 13.33%
  • Yang Kang

    16 26.67%
  • Li Mochou

    2 3.33%
  • Zhen Zhibing

    17 28.33%
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Thread: Most hated villain of both LOCH/ROCH

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Candide
    The worst one has to be Gongsun Zi, who somehow didn't even make the poll. He's about as evil as it gets. His wife is a close second.
    So true. I hate that Gongsun Zi the mostttttttttttt. Killing his wife, killing his "love" for the pill, killing his daughter, and many other evil things. Too evil....

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by owbjhx
    I admire your perverse viewpoint, but I don't see anywhere in the novel (2nd edition, at least) where Jin Yong writes Guo Fu as a likeable or pitiful character.
    She's protective of her younger sister. She appears to be a good wife to Yelu. There was a scene in Passionless Valley where Haung Rong was in trouble and she didn't want to leave her mother. She's a filial daughter at the very least. I admire her for trying to get rid of Li Mochou in that last scene at the Ancient Tomb.

    She is a sadistic bully who treats other people like insects: in Lu Wushuang's words, she has "no idea of right or wrong".
    Personally, her inability to tell right from wrong makes her pitiful. She injures not out of a black heart but because she's spoiled and can't tell better. I know she should, but the fact that she can't. She was poorly brought up and badly spoiled, which doesn't excuse her actions, but does in my opinion make her more understandable. And there's only one scene where I felt remorse was necessary from her and that's when she cut off Yang Guo's arm, and even then I understood that she was severely provoked at the moment. I had no problem with her lack of apologies when she accidentally poisoned XLN at the end because even Jin Yong explained that she didn't realized how hurt truly XLN was. Guo Fu offered them her mother's medicine because she felt that was all they needed; true, she simply cannot grasp the severity of the situation, but that doesn't make her evil; it just makes her dumb.

    Her relentless bitterness is not at all understandable until the clumsy and unconvincing denouement of chapter 39.
    I actually found that realistic and refreshing, that she did forgive, but she wasn't going to turn over a new leaf and kiss YG's *** so readily. But the point is she did humble herself for her husband, a huge move on her part, and she did make amends of sorts.

    GF is an unpleasant character who's written even worse. I'm surprised you like GF and dislike YG, because they share a key annoying character trait - epic self-centeredness. At least YG sort of grows out of it.
    Guo Fu is spoiled and doesn't know better, but she does on occasion try to do the right thing. YG's supposed to be smart and know better, and he doesn't seem to think outside his gugu. You're right, they're both unpleasant, but one is entertaining and has some interesting layers and the other is one-note with no development.

    He is shown to suffer sadness, loneliness, remorse and desperation; his once-doting relationship with his daughter was effectively ruined by his first wife,
    WHA--? I could have sworn that he was tyrant to his daughter from the first and caused her huge suffering from when she was little. She was always sad, the book said, her father hadn't allowed anything to tell her she was pretty which gives me the impression he didn't allow her to have friends, she had mentioned he had always ignored her and she felt lonely and unloved. Where did you get this idea of they having a doting relationship?

    and he cuts a pathetic figure as he sees that his new bride - the one thing in his life which gives him joy - only agreed to marry him out of "spite"; even YG has a bit of sympathy for him.
    I agree with that. I felt sorry for him then, especially when it was mentioned that he did love XLN, but his actions that followed were so awful and repulsive that the sorry feeling went out of the window and I just wanted him to die a terrible painful death.

    None of this excuses his behaviour, but Jin Yong doesn't draw him completely without mercy; unlike GF, he's not the comic-book villain you describe.
    1. I read comic books and trust me, their villians are pretty complex.
    2. I'm not saying that Gongsun Zhi isn't complex, and doesn't have a pitiful side or that you can't sympathesize with him (though I didn't after his actions got increasingly ugly); I'm just saying what he did and the total lack of regards for his daughter, wife, and anyone else he hurt when he did them made him in my opinion a monster and inhuman villain, who I happen to really find a lot of disgust in.
    3. don't think JY drew Guo Fu totally without redeeming qualities either.

    Ultimately, to hate or not to hate a character is a reader's personal thing. I'm just trying to suggest what sort of spin Jin Yong puts on events.
    You got a point there. Nonetheless, I still stand by my opinion that JY didn't write GF to be as one-not evil as you think he did.

  3. #23
    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    I find myself agreeing with every point of bunny's assessment of Gwok Fu. Gwok Fu was a conceited, stupid girl, but she falls very short of the diabolical villain category.

  4. #24
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    Default "Have you met Miss Guo? / Someone said as we shook hands..."

    Quote Originally Posted by silent_bunny
    She's protective of her younger sister. She appears to be a good wife to Yelu. There was a scene in Passionless Valley where Haung Rong was in trouble and she didn't want to leave her mother. She's a filial daughter at the very least.
    Guo Fu constantly said hurtful things to Guo Xiang (at one time reducing her to tears), tried to get her in trouble with Guo Jing, and was even jealous of the attention she received from Yang Guo. That's bullying, not protection. Even Li Mochou showed more affection to GX. I agree however that she was filial to Huang Rong. As for being a good wife, she *was* willing to kowtow to save Yelu Qi, even though Jin Yong immediately spoils this picture by suggesting that YLQ was perhaps second to you-know-who in her deepest darkest affections.

    There's a scene in chapter 21 where GF, painfully aware of the love triangle she's in, shows a kind of motherly compassion for the Wu Brothers. I was almost moved, but then Jin Yong spoiled the picture yet again by juxtaposing that with the impossibly perfect relationship between YG & Xiaolongnu. Both times, I think Jin Yong may have done this deliberately.

    Quote Originally Posted by silent_bunny
    Personally, her inability to tell right from wrong makes her pitiful. She injures not out of a black heart but because she's spoiled and can't tell better. I know she should, but the fact that she can't. She was poorly brought up and badly spoiled, which doesn't excuse her actions, but does in my opinion make her more understandable. And there's only one scene where I felt remorse was necessary from her and that's when she cut off Yang Guo's arm, and even then I understood that she was severely provoked at the moment.
    I would agree with your argument if we apply it to the arm-chopping and needle-throwing, and even to the bullying of the lame-legged Lu Wushuang. Yes, GF is dumb and easily provoked. But I don't think it quite works if you consider her behaviour at 'The Manor of 10,000 Beasts' in chapter 35. Knowing full well that Shi Mengjie and Big Head have no intention of harming her, she still stabs the one and slashes the other, and then feels "secretly pleased with herself". Jin Yong makes a special effort to show that she is deliberately being cruel and actually derives pleasure from it. And this is not the first time; in chapter 3, the 9-year-old GF got as much pleasure from watching two children hit another child as she did from watching crickets kill each other. It's hard to understand how this sadistic edge is as a result of being only 'spoiled'. And even if I do see it, what is there to pity about it? I pity suffering, not faults alone. Faults or not, GF suffers next to nothing in the novel. But how much do others suffer as a result of her faults?

    Quote Originally Posted by silent_bunny
    I actually found that realistic and refreshing, that she did forgive, but she wasn't going to turn over a new leaf and kiss YG's *** so readily. But the point is she did humble herself for her husband, a huge move on her part, and she did make amends of sorts.
    Yes, you're right. It sort of makes sense for GF to finally take her place among YG's harem of adoring, heartbroken girls. I suppose I only dislike the way Jin Yong did it.

    Quote Originally Posted by silent_bunny
    WHA--? I could have sworn that he was tyrant to his daughter from the first and caused her huge suffering from when she was little. She was always sad, the book said, her father hadn't allowed anything to tell her she was pretty which gives me the impression he didn't allow her to have friends, she had mentioned he had always ignored her and she felt lonely and unloved. Where did you get this idea of they having a doting relationship?
    From Chapter 17 (my approximate translations):

    Gongsun Lu'e to YG: "Before, father used to cherish me a lot. But since mother died - when I was six years old - father has gotten more and more strict with me."

    Jin Yong on why nobody called Lu'e pretty: "It was true that, in her whole life, no-one had ever praised her beauty. This was because the martial arts practiced in her school were seriously meditative; when anyone interacted, they were always icy-cold and imperturbable".

    Quote Originally Posted by silent_bunny
    1. I read comic books and trust me, their villians are pretty complex.
    2. I'm not saying that Gongsun Zhi isn't complex, and doesn't have a pitiful side or that you can't sympathesize with him (though I didn't after his actions got increasingly ugly); I'm just saying what he did and the total lack of regards for his daughter, wife, and anyone else he hurt when he did them made him in my opinion a monster and inhuman villain, who I happen to really find a lot of disgust in.
    3. don't think JY drew Guo Fu totally without redeeming qualities either.
    1. Just using a figure of speech. "Bad-comic-book villain" doesn't sound catchy.
    2. Fair enough. He did actually show a tiny bit of regard for his daughter while he was putting his moves on Li Mochou, but yes, he's clearly a disgusting guy. He & his wife deserve each other.
    3. That is true. I'm probably a bit too harsh on her.

    Thanks for posting such a considered response, by the way.

  5. #25
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    However disastrous her actions were for Yeung Gor, Gwok Fu's motivations were typically very petty, penny-ante stuff. If villains pride themselves on being evil, I think most of the Jin Yong villains would feel insulted that they're considered less evil than a girl such as Gwok Fu.

  6. #26
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    Whoops, my bad. One thing forgotten and another totally wrong:

    From Chapter 17 (my approximate translations):

    Gongsun Lu'e to YG: "Before, father used to cherish me a lot. But since mother died - when I was six years old - father has gotten more and more strict with me."
    I've forgotten about that, but I can't pity him the loss of that doting relationship since he really brought that on himself. If Luu'E had been affected by her mother's disappearance that she became distant or hostile, I may have pitied him, but it was he who became strict and unloving, and it seems clear that Luu'E was always a filial daughter who wanted her father's love. But you are right in that he did cherish his daughter once and I'll have to give him his props for that.

    Jin Yong on why nobody called Lu'e pretty: "It was true that, in her whole life, no-one had ever praised her beauty. This was because the martial arts practiced in her school were seriously meditative; when anyone interacted, they were always icy-cold and imperturbable".
    Wow, I totally screwed up that. Thanks for pointing it out. Last time I ever write something without checking the book first. (no worries, folks, once corrected, I usually don't make the same mistakes.)

    It's hard to understand how this sadistic edge is as a result of being only 'spoiled'.
    You're right, it isn't. Guo Fu does have an affinity for sadism that's all her own, and stabbing and slashing Shi Mengjie and Big Head shows how terrible sadistic she can be, but compared to what villains in the list have done, those two acts are petty. I also have a feeling that had her parents been firm when she first started torturing animals and encouraging Yang Guo to be beaten up, she would have outgrown it. Personally, I never found her sadism an defining features of hers. It was more of her spoilness and dumbness I saw. I mostly feel bad for her because it seems no matter what she does, things turn out badly for all concerned, even when she tries to do the right thing. After a while you almost can't blame her for not doing more good deed because you know if she tries, it's going to turn out badly.

    3. That is true. I'm probably a bit too harsh on her.
    I was inaccurately harsh on Gongsun Zhi. He wasn't totally evil from the start.

    Thanks for posting such a considered response, by the way.
    Thank-you too, especially for not roasting me for my misinformation Much appreciate that, and I'll definitely checking the book from now on before I post anything.

  7. #27
    TommyH
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    Yang Kang certainly deserves my vote more than anyone else on that list.

  8. #28
    Senior Member xiaolong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyH View Post
    Yang Kang certainly deserves my vote more than anyone else on that list.
    Yang Kang redeemed himself by fathering Yang Guo. Why isn't XLN's rapist Yin Zhiping (Zhen Zhibing in 3rd ed) on the list? Rapists cannot be forgiven and I don't care if he was sorry about it. XLN forgiving her rapist is not realistic. No woman ever forgives rape. Rape is worse than death for a woman in the Song dynasty. Jin Yong is unrealistic and has zero understanding of how a woman feels.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by xiaolong View Post
    Yang Kang redeemed himself by fathering Yang Guo. Why isn't XLN's rapist Yin Zhiping (Zhen Zhibing in 3rd ed) on the list? Rapists cannot be forgiven and I don't care if he was sorry about it. XLN forgiving her rapist is not realistic. No woman ever forgives rape. Rape is worse than death for a woman in the Song dynasty. Jin Yong is unrealistic and has zero understanding of how a woman feels.
    One can redeem him/herself by having sex and just happen to produce an offspring that just happen to have a better personality? Interesting!

    Also can XLN felt that Zhen Zhibing paid enough for his crime, that she did not want to punish him further, but she's still angry and despodent about it (she felt that she could no longer marry Yang Guo and felt she did not deserve it for Yang Guo to marry her in front of Wang Chongyang's drawing), is that forgiveness? If one doesn't care to punish an ugly attacker any longer, but still feels disgust of the attacker, that she never wanted to see the attacker again, is that forgiveness? Any opinion? Ladies? I think there might be people who were raped, but saw that the attacker had suffered enough that did not want the offender to be punished further, but nevertheless felt disgusted about the incident, that they would want the attacker to just disappear. I'm not sure if that is forgiveness at all.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Cesare's Avatar
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    C'mon. Yin Zhiping/Zhen Zhibing commited a horrible crime, but he's not a villain...
    That one thing was a grave mistake which he justly paid for.

    Zhen Zhibing is generally a rather passive character. At his worst, he's simply lacking either control or guts (or both). He's good enough to repent and sensible enough to feel ashamed when confronted with the consequences of his crime - and over the course of the story, he is fairly consistently protrayed as meaning good rather than harm. And at his best, he rather rocks, actually.
    Loser. Not villain. In terms of story and characterization, it takes more than raping one chick (and then angsting about it) to qualify as a villain.

    Zhao Zhijing, that's another story. That guy was a bitter, twisted scumbag.

    Still, I'd so much rather read a novel about them two - with YG and XLN as supporting characters (considerable reduction of number of pages they get to occupy might even make YG and XLN somewhat likeable).

    Anyway - disliking or hating Zhen/Yin is perfectly alright I guess - but listing him as a villain is a rather gross exaggeration. Esp. if brother Zhao didn't even make it to the list.
    Last edited by Cesare; 06-25-10 at 06:06 PM.
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  11. #31
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    Nowadays, I tend to find Qiu Qianchi and Ouyang Feng most hatable.

    Gongsun Zhi may actually be the most horrible person, but Jin Yong wanted to write him as a "shi wai gao ren" (secluded saint of martial arts), so he was given a flair of coolness.

    Zhao Zhijing is another totally evil worthless idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    So what if 1000 arrows are targetted at our wuxia hero? LHC's missile breaking stance can deflect thousands of projectiles in 1 stance and send them back to the enemy. The more arrows the better!

  12. #32
    Senior Member xiaolong's Avatar
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    Heheh, impregnating MNC was the luckiest thing that happened to YK.
    I came across an interesting interview with Zhou Jie who played YK in LOCH2003 (see http://www.zhoujie.com/report/report121_en.html). He said a web fan commented that YK is [the most eligible husband] among all of the heroes penned by Jin Yong. WTF?!! Quality of sperm matters more to women than character meh?

    If I were XLN, I would like to see Zhen Zhibing die horribly with his balls chopped off. He died too easy and honourable a death.

    And yeh, why isn't Zhao Zhijing on the list? He had a good upbringing with all the moral teachings of Quanzhen (unliked YK who was brought up by a murderous villain) and yet became a despicable bastard.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoatran View Post
    One can redeem him/herself by having sex and just happen to produce an offspring that just happen to have a better personality? Interesting!

    Also can XLN felt that Zhen Zhibing paid enough for his crime, that she did not want to punish him further, but she's still angry and despodent about it.
    Last edited by xiaolong; 06-28-10 at 02:17 AM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by xiaolong View Post
    If I were XLN, I would like to see Zhen Zhibing die horribly with his balls chopped off. He died too easy and honourable a death.
    He deserved an honourable death.
    As to how easy it actually was for him, that remains open to interpretation. He'd been through SOME hell before things kind of sorted themselves out. He brought that hell upon himself - and it was well deserved (having his way with XLN was bad enough, but telling Zhao Zhijing adds stupidity to the list of Zhen's crimes...).
    But no amount of physical torture could be worse than the psychological turmoil and torment Zhen had been through before he died. In a way, he died a VERY slow and painful death.

    Now - if you wanted to be really, really cruel, you'd lock him up in one cell with Zhao Zhijing, keep them both tied up, well fed and in reasonably good physical condition (that is - good enough to keep them alive) and let them "enjoy" each other's company.
    But then - if you were XLN, you just wouldn't have enough imagination to be able think of that, since Guo'er would occupy some 99,9% of space on your hard-drive...
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  14. #34
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    That rapist doesn't deserve any honour whatsoever. He wasn't sorry for it until he got found out by XLN.
    He told Zhao Zhijing out of typical male pride in boasting about his "conquest" of the most beautiful woman in wulin. That's how low that bastard went. He wasn't sorry at all before XLN discovered the truth.
    Psychological turmoil is not enough for a lowly bastard like him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cesare View Post
    He deserved an honourable death.
    As to how easy it actually was for him, that remains open to interpretation. He'd been through SOME hell before things kind of sorted themselves out. He brought that hell upon himself - and it was well deserved (having his way with XLN was bad enough, but telling Zhao Zhijing adds stupidity to the list of Zhen's crimes...).
    But no amount of physical torture could be worse than the psychological turmoil and torment Zhen had been through before he died. In a way, he died a VERY slow and painful death.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyH View Post
    Yang Kang certainly deserves my vote more than anyone else on that list.
    I'd vote for the murderous lecher (Wanyan Honglie) whom he emulated.

    Please put Zhao Zhijing on the list. That scumbag grew up with the best moral teachings from an upright man like Wang Chuyi and yet became an evil traitor who broke every rule of Quanzhen taoism.
    Last edited by yangjia; 06-28-10 at 01:11 PM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by laisee View Post
    Psychological turmoil is not enough for a lowly bastard like him.
    If you think that it's not bad enough, you underestimate it *a lot*. If you're willing to put yourself in XLN's shoes, try out Zhen Zhibing's as well. Yeah, he deserved it - both for the rape and for the boasting - but if you seriously think having Zhao Zhijing hang around like a bad smell was not bad enough, your imagination is IMHO seriously lacking...
    Yep, he didn't repent until he was found out by XLN (which I find worse than the rape itself). He however came to realize the extent of damage he'd done and he was genuinely sorry - not just dang-I-was-found-out sort of sorry.
    In most other departments - loyalty to the sect and to Song, respect and love for his teacher, standing up to the Mongols, or being overall a rather nice guy - he was perfectly OK. That's enough saving graces to earn him a right to die well and save the life of XLN in the process.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by laisee View Post
    That rapist doesn't deserve any honour whatsoever. He wasn't sorry for it until he got found out by XLN.
    He told Zhao Zhijing out of typical male pride in boasting about his "conquest" of the most beautiful woman in wulin. That's how low that bastard went. He wasn't sorry at all before XLN discovered the truth.
    Psychological turmoil is not enough for a lowly bastard like him.
    He couldn't stuff a big happening like that inside, so he had to tell someone. When he said he did not regret, he meant the joy he experienced (which was selfish but understandable), but I believe he did feel remorseful, all the time, for violating Xiao Longnu, as evidenced by his willingness/wish to be killed by her.

    Except for the rape thing, Yin Zhiping/Zhen Zhibing was portrayed by Jin Yong in a positive light, showing that Yin/Zhen was a victim of one moment of mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    So what if 1000 arrows are targetted at our wuxia hero? LHC's missile breaking stance can deflect thousands of projectiles in 1 stance and send them back to the enemy. The more arrows the better!

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    He couldn't stuff a big happening like that inside, so he had to tell someone. When he said he did not regret, he meant the joy he experienced (which was selfish but understandable), but I believe he did feel remorseful, all the time, for violating Xiao Longnu, as evidenced by his willingness/wish to be killed by her.
    I just dug out the passage and I am tempted to agree with you there.
    Though I still think that it didn't quite completely dawn on him until XLN found out. (Maybe it's because her finding out added to the damage already done, maybe it was that direct confrontation that did it - but it still seems to me like he needed that wake-up call.)
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  19. #39
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    See the YouTube comments on the rape scene in ROCH 2006 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOHe_...eature=related
    Caused a huge uproar and a slew of hate comments from viewers. That's how hated rapists are.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ View Post
    He couldn't stuff a big happening like that inside, so he had to tell someone. When he said he did not regret, he meant the joy he experienced (which was selfish but understandable).
    Hmmm....I think he would have continued smugly not regretting if he never got found out.
    Last edited by munianci; 06-28-10 at 12:45 PM.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by munianci View Post
    See the YouTube comments on the rape scene in ROCH 2006 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOHe_...eature=related
    Caused a huge uproar and a slew of hate comments from viewers. That's how hated rapists are.
    What about Yeung Siu and Wai Siu Bo, then? They don't get half the grief that Wan Tze Ping/Yan Tze Bing does.

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