Team War: Team Taoists vs. Team 'XF Pwners+GWM'

[z@rds]

Regardless of whatever philosophical arguments can be made in favor of 9 Yin, XF still has the "zui li hai" palm.

May i know why? It doesn't make sense at all!!

[augster123]

The novel specifically stated that it fused with the ultimate Yin poison of the ice-worm to form a synergy which gave him unmatched inner power.

ok...with that statement, i can drop and rest my previous biased assumption/belief of YTZ into the grave...
YTZ is definitely at the minimum Zhang/Wang level in terms of internal energy WITHOUT needing to master YJJ completely (him being at 70%) because the freak synergy accident was stated specifically in the novel to give him 'unmatched internal power'. in terms of internal energy, i still hold that Zhang/Wang > XF though!!! unless XF has an "unmatched internal power" statement too in the novel.

and for the internal energy thing, from ChronoReverse's substantial amount of evidence, i guess YG just somehow acquired a Yang internal energy basis instead of continuosly increasing the Yin internal energy basis that he had from 9 Yin manual & Jade Maiden Manual. those Jin Yong Heroes Gathering game creators obviously didn't read the novels enough to see that YG was clearly a Yang internal energy guy. shame on them for misleading me.

[Whsie]

Regardless of whatever philosophical arguments can be made in favor of 9 Yin, XF still has the "zui li hai" palm.

And it also depends on how zui li hai is explained. I see it as most power. I'm not talking about most meng. Z3F's art are soft, yet JY said his arts in terms of power (wai li)is world #1 (in HSDS). So we're not neccesary talking about most meng=most powerful. Even if JY said so, his novel even after the revision, I still seriously don't see how XF's palm is in any way more refined and more conservative than GJ's. JY may say it, but his novel still isn't proving it. So what I see it as, is that XF's palm in 3rd edition is improved, but still not as good in the other areas other than power. And honestly, as good as XF's palm is, I think GJ still can at least match and take it (in other words, GJ may need to step 1 or 2 steps back to take in the power).

When li hai is translated online, I came out with fierce. So I still see it as the most powered palm, not most refined and conservative. And fierce in the dictionary is Having a savage and violent nature; ferocious.

[Black Night Sea]

And YTZ's inner power should exceed the Greats. He could take XF's palm blast (which is stronger then GJ's - OH Deal with it you Anti-XF biatches! Its ZUI LI HAI! YOU GET IT?!?! ZUI LI HAI!!!!!, not 'zui meng' or 'zui xiong', its ZUI LI HAI!) without feeling any pain while someone like MRB felt stunned when he blocked it.

(sigh) It takes quite a lot of effort to convince an English oriented wuxia forum on the interpretation of Chinese language. Chinese-literate people just simply recognise it in an instant, without too much hassle from others.

This heading was taken off a website: -
地球上最厲害的球員 - Ronaldindo Gaucho
(Spelling error. It should be pronounced as Ronaldinho Gaucho)

Translation: The world’s (…..) football player - Ronaldinho Gaucho

< I think it’s easy to understand why that part of the statement is left blank because it’s just so obvious what it is. As long as you don’t live in a country where the sport is called: “soccer“. (No offence intended)

I repeat…the dictionary does not help one bit. Disparities in the structure of two completely different languages are inevitable.

I repeat again…it is not 100% certain XF dished out XLZ like there’s no tomorrow against YTZ + MRF when XF‘s words to Xuzhu in the final chapter is considered, that’s unless you call XF a liar.

I repeat 3rd: One’s got to ask themselves if there’s any point in asking unnecessarily specific questions in the form of: “Who’s got the most power in a palm technique?” to Jinyong.

[Dennis Chen]

Just because Xiao Feng's palm technique is "Zui Li Hai", it doesn't mean that Yi Deng, having reached the highest level of Yi Yang Zhi (a level no one else, including in DGSD, ever reached) couldn't meet it head on.

[Black Night Sea]

Just because Xiao Feng's palm technique is "Zui Li Hai", it doesn't mean that Yi Deng, having reached the highest level of Yi Yang Zhi (a level no one else, including in DGSD, ever reached) couldn't meet it head on.

He never tried to meet a 'close to 1000 jin' attack from Jinlun Guoshi either. But what he can't win in force he'll have to stick with his qi attacks.

Yideng wasn't really formidable in palm vs palm anyway.

[CC]

When li hai is translated online, I came out with fierce. So I still see it as the most powered palm, not most refined and conservative. And fierce in the dictionary is Having a savage and violent nature; ferocious.

No offence but I assume you don't read or speak much Mandarin? Otherwise, 'Li Hai' is an often used term to describe a whole gamut of things from brilliance to ability to skill level etc etc.

The closest English phrases to replace 'Zui Li Hai' is 'The Best' or the 'Most Brilliant'.

So when used in the context of 'Zui Li Hai' or most extreme 'li hai' it simply means that its the all round best.

EVEN IF you insist on arguing that GJ's palm is more energy conserving, the fact that JY stated XF's palm as 'Zui Li Hai' still implies that any shortcoming in the energy conservation department is more then made up for in other areas. Anything less and it won't be 最厲害!

[CC]

(sigh) It takes quite a lot of effort to convince an English oriented wuxia forum on the interpretation of Chinese language. Chinese-literate people just simply recognise it in an instant, without too much hassle from others.
.

Those chinese readers on the chinese forums are still not taking it lying down though. I still see people arguing for GJ>XF.

[Whsie]

Those chinese readers on the chinese forums are still not taking it lying down though. I still see people arguing for GJ>XF.

I'm a chinese reader. However, JY said most li hai, so I went to those chinese-english translating site to see what I would come out. Li hai could be interpreted in lots of ways, so I went and see what a translator would give me. It gave one word-fierce. And fierce was said in my dictionary to be:
in english: 1. Having a savage and violent nature; ferocious. 2. Extremely severe or violent 3. Extremely intense or ardent 4. Strenuously active or resolute 5. Informal Very difficult or unpleasant 6. Savage or threatening in appearance. I swear I copy it straight out of the dictionary. Or in chinese: synomyns: 凶猛的, 猛烈的, 热烈的, 暴躁的<美>极讨厌的, 难受的, <英方>精力旺盛的. Also coming straight out of the dictionary.

I know XF didn't blast out his palm like no tommorow. But it was still clear that he would lose power. And in addition, that quote was explaining the palm. That explanation only proves that he understands the concepts of XL18Z, nothing more! H7G also talks about "after power" or ho jin. It's nothing new. That was what H7G was so annoyed about GJ in the beggining when he taught GJ the palm. He was practically saying that if your opponent has a higher internal on the strike and you gave 100%, your opponent would absorb all of that and have more to hit you while you have 0% left and you're practically doomed. It's explained in the 3rd edition of LOCH in detail. GJ would hit the tree with 100% and the tree would just shake and shake and absorb everything having no ho jin. This is what H7G wanted and also XF tried to teach this to XZ: you gave 30% in the first wave, your opponent may beat it or lose to it. Beat it, great! Lose, retreat and use the 70% to get away for another round.
Anyway, I'll just accept that the power is enough to balance everything out (in case this thing will take more hours).

[Black Night Sea]

That explanation only proves that he understands the concepts of XL18Z, nothing more!

If he understood it, he should know what’s supposed to be required for the optimum level of performance. If he culminated to ‘perfection' in fist-fighting from an ordinary technique like Taizhu Long Fist, I don’t see why he could not maintain that balance in soft and hard to a different technique that shares similar theories and goals, with the exception that it’s a palm technique this time. Why not?

More importantly this is what he said to Xuzhu:

When I use the “Twenty-Eight Dragon Subduing Palms”, I always imagine this: 對方毒龍有八十條 ` 一百條, 降服了一條, 去了十條, 環有二十條, and yet the strength of my palms is still as inexhaustible as ever, then I’ll forever stand in an invincible position.”

That should be the main reason why he’s undefeated in his lifetime. Even somebody like Jinlun Guoshi knew that a moderation of soft and hard styles in battle is most beneficial.

My current opinion of that fight with YTZ + MRF:
What XF used against Ironhead should be qiaojin ‘巧勁‘ (clever use of energy) not houjin ‘後勁’ which roughly translates as ‘after-effects’ or ‘reserved energy’. (GJ has hidden 13 layers of these in every palm stance)

This non-wuxia related Chinese text from another website, supports my view that XF did not waste (a lot of) energy when he was one-on-one with YTZ:

永遠不要蠻幹；要多用巧勁，省下力氣到需要的時候再用，
There’s no need to act rashly; you must frequently use qiaojin, saving enough strength until when it’s necessary. (The question would be: how frequently did XF use qiaojin?)

Another example if you thought that I wasted time by selfishly typing that up and gave out false information just to prove a point:

我發覺這個功夫的重點是在於用巧勁，以柔克剛 。
I find that the focal point of this kung fu would be the qiaojin aspect, using soft to counter hard. (Does Taichi Quan, Vacant Fist ring a bell here?)

As aforementioned: Dog-beating Stick adheres to the principle of “4 ounce shifts 1000 Jin” [四兩撥千斤] which MUST depend on qiaojin, otherwise HR’s jade stick would never have lasted against a Beggar Clan Elder’s steel cane (in a fight that occurred somewhere in LOCH) if it was 1000 Jin against 1000 Jin. Just on the fancy words alone, it’s also another exquisite way of using soft to counter hard.

So I hereby conclude that when he was using qiaojin against You Tanzhi, he would not be wasting energy (at all). But when he turned his attention to Murong Fu, he would be; that Ironhead just had to be in the nick of time to save his a** and vice-versa when Murong Fu was given his own breathing space. Furthermore, I disregard MRF’s thoughts of confidently believing that XF will lose the upper hand in one hours time. All he’s witnessed in the first strokes is the hard-yang side of XLZ, he never anticipated there to be a soft-yin side to it. I’m pretty sure he won’t jump to such a firm conclusion if qiaojin was put before his eyes instead during the first few minutes of the fight and not hard-yang ‘mengjin‘. His and Duan Yu’s views more-or-less mirrored that of 3 Mongolian warriors’ on Guo Jing’s XL18Z albeit a precise time limit was not affixed for GJ.

The real question concerning his dexterity in energy saving is: how much balance of hardness and softness did he have in that fight? Jinyong to me made it out like XF concentrated more on YTZ than MRF, MRF if I’m not wrong was roaming around them.

Do take note that the effect of “ultimate hardness comes ultimate softness” in XL18Z is not the efficacy of 9 Yin. For GJ it could be, but H7G is already capable of that in LOCH.

Those chinese readers on the chinese forums are still not taking it lying down though. I still see people arguing for GJ>XF.

It’s the L/R Hand Technique factor. It has to be said though, that the question was about palm technique and did not address the issue of martial arts/fighting ability. Like someone pointed out before, GJ is more than just XL18Z, he’s got a whole range of techniques in abundance to augment his already great normal fighting ability.

[Whsie]

That's a better proof But that is still somewhat close to this. 劲力忽强忽弱，忽吞忽吐，从至刚之中竟生出至柔的妙用 of GJ's. 巧勁 is practically having good tricky control over the 劲力. Taichi those type of arts aren't 100% softness. There has to be times where it has to be some hardness to direct the energy and softness to let the energy flow along a way. And that is kind of like the description up there.

Anyway, the L/R tech that you talk about would be something like this which XF can't do: 郭靖心中一动：“有谁这么大胆，竟敢到重阳宫去动手？今晚之事，卖是大有蹊跷。”要待赶去瞧个明白，十四座 北斗阵却又逼近，越缠越紧。他心中焦急，左掌一招“见龙在田”，右手一招“亢龙有悔”，使出左右互搏之术， 同时分攻左右。但见左边北斗大阵的四十九人挡他左招，右边四十九人挡他右招。他招数未曾使足，中途忽变，“ 见龙在田”变成了“亢龙有悔”，而“亢龙有悔”却变成了“见龙在田”。

　　他以左右互搏之术，双手使不同招数已属难能，而中途招数互易，众道更是见所未见、闻所未闻。左边的北斗 大阵原是抵挡他的“见龙在田”，右边的挡他的“亢龙有悔”，这两招去势相反，两边道人奋力相抗，那料得到倏 忽之间他竟招数互易。只见郭靖人影一闪，已从两阵的夹缝中窜出，左边的四十九名道人与右边四十九名道人正自 发力向前冲击，这时哪里还收得住脚？只听砰的一声巨响，两阵相撞，或剑折臂伤，或鼻肿目青，更有三十余人自 相冲撞摔倒。

He first launched "Regret of Dragon" on his right hand and then "Seeing Dragon in the Field" on his left hand. 49 daoist block one and 49 block the other. However, GJ suddenly uses L/R to reverse the technique therefore the left was expecting this but got the other and in general, the whole formation got screwed over. Of course in a 1 on 1 fight, the opponent would be confused.
Now all you have to do to convince me that XF>GJ is that internally XF>GJ, THEN I'll finally accept XF>GJ because even if XF=GJ in conservative side and XF a bit greater in power side, the L/R tech still gives GJ's XLP more variations to work with. So the palm are still relatively equal. So in my book right now is XF=GJ

[Black Night Sea]

But that is still somewhat close to this. 劲力忽强忽弱，忽吞忽吐，从至刚之中竟生出至柔的妙用 of GJ's.

GJ’s style of “from ultimate hardness comes ultimate softness” from its description of [忽强忽弱，忽吞忽吐], functions concurrently (every second) instead of between certain intervals (different moments) which was the way XF fought YTZ + MRF.

Taichi those type of arts aren't 100% softness. There has to be times where it has to be some hardness to direct the energy and softness to let the energy flow along a way.

Zhang Sanfeng’s Taichi Quan style of “from ultimate softness comes ultimate hardness” is exemplified in a single move alone. As good as XF is, he probably won’t produce anything close to that level in his soft techniques. But even in saying that, that can still be argued though, as XF has already demonstrated “softness comes hardness” when he flicked a pebble with his finger in one scene in the Shaolin Monastery.

Now all you have to do to convince me that XF>GJ is that internally XF>GJ,

That’s a bit too much to ask for. Nobody has ever done that.