View Poll Results: Who will take the cake?

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  • Ming Cult

    37 62.71%
  • Sun Moon Cult

    22 37.29%
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Thread: Poll: Ming Cult versus Sun Moon Cult

  1. #21
    Member nie_feng2002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by junzi
    When Ren Yingying became leader of the Sun Moon Sect, the 'Right Counsellor' was Lu Zhu Weng (Green Bamboo Elder). Cos he was standing on the right of her sedan chair when they went up Hengshan near the end of the novel.

    Not sure if he was also the 'Right Counsellor' during DFBB and RWX's leadership.
    DFBB was the other councelor of the Sun Moon Cult besides XWT during RWX's leadership... XWT mentioned that when LHC, RWX and himself were chatting in the Mei manor...

  2. #22
    Senior Member junzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nie_feng2002
    DFBB was the other councelor of the Sun Moon Cult besides XWT during RWX's leadership... XWT mentioned that when LHC, RWX and himself were chatting in the Mei manor...
    I've just finished XAJH and I've forgotten many things already. :/

    Well then, I'm not sure if Lu Zhu Weng was the Right Counsellor during DFBB's time or when RWX regained power after killing DFBB.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    RWX works with the rest of Sun Moon fighters to allows RWX to use his XXDF on the other Ming fighters.

    After RWX has leeched all the Guardian Lords and Heralds etc etc, he goes to exchange palms with ZWJ.
    RWX will face the same consequences as he did when he squared off with Zuo Lengchan, if he tries his XXDF on Wei Yixiao.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanky Panky
    RWX will face the same consequences as he did when he squared off with Zuo Lengchan, if he tries his XXDF on Wei Yixiao.
    That's if he can get him first since that bat guy is pretty fast unless he had that crazy vacuum-like XXDF in Swordman 2.

  5. #25
    Junior Member minggaow_tvb's Avatar
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    Support Ming Cult all the way!!!
    Fav TVB Artist/Singer: Tavia and Raymond
    Always Obsessed with: Demi Gods and the Semi Devils 97 & Heaven Sword and the Dragon Sabre 2000

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by augster123
    That's if he can get him first since that bat guy is pretty fast unless he had that crazy vacuum-like XXDF in Swordman 2.
    Alright, what if speedy Wei found out what he was up to and let him do it? RWX is a dead man after that.

    If young Zhang does use Taichi Sword on LHC he will lose in a heartbeat. Because you see there’s a potential flaw in the Taichi Jian Swordplay, and LHC has already exploited it from his encounter with the Taoist Priest Chongxu.

    Young Zhang will be better off with his bare-armed techniques consisting of QKDNY and palm qi, as it was never clarified whether LHC properly learnt the qi-breaking stance. His palm-breaking stance will leave a lot to be desired as he was totally baffled by the palm stances RWX + Fang Zheng used against each other. Feng Qingyang told him it would take at least 20 years for him to contend for supremacy amongst the very best at the time in XAJH. No idea if DFBB belonged to the group of elites he brought up.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanky Panky
    Alright, what if speedy Wei found out what he was up to and let him do it? RWX is a dead man after that.

    If young Zhang does use Taichi Sword on LHC he will lose in a heartbeat. Because you see there’s a potential flaw in the Taichi Jian Swordplay, and LHC has already exploited it from his encounter with the Taoist Priest Chongxu.

    Young Zhang will be better off with his bare-armed techniques consisting of QKDNY and palm qi, as it was never clarified whether LHC properly learnt the qi-breaking stance. His palm-breaking stance will leave a lot to be desired as he was totally baffled by the palm stances RWX + Fang Zheng used against each other. Feng Qingyang told him it would take at least 20 years for him to contend for supremacy amongst the very best at the time in XAJH. No idea if DFBB belonged to the group of elites he brought up.
    I think what mainly happened that Chongxu lost was that Taichi sword was already decreasing in power and mastery. I have shown before that the Taichi sword used by Z3F and ZWJ had a higher level of mastery than the 7 Wudang Heros. I don't think that flaw existed when Z3F or ZWJ used Taichi sword. 要知张三丰传给他的乃是“剑意”,而非“剑招”,要他将所见到的剑招忘得半点不剩,才能得其神髓,临敌时以意驭剑,千变万化,无穷无尽。倘若尚有一两招剑法忘不乾净,心有拘圃,剑法便不能纯。 At this time. ZWJ has is already at the sword meaning, formless, your opponent can't "recongnize" a stance. LHC on the contrary is different. LHC still has some 300 variations for the sword break stance. FQY said that there would be a point when you totally forget all the stances. 学他的剑法,要旨是在一个‘悟’字,决不在死记硬记。等到通晓了这九剑的剑意,则无所施而不可 ,便是将全部变化尽数忘记,也不相干,临敌之际,更是忘记得越干净彻底,越不受原来剑法的拘束。Right now, LHC still has the 300 something variations. In comparision ZWJ has already reached the point that he no more variations. So who has the higher level of mastery in sword? At least at this point, ZWJ's Taichi sword does. So ZWJ wouldn't lose in a heart beat and IMO would win .

    旁人除了张三丰外,没一个瞧得出他每一招到底是攻是守。 This is one of the parts that I used last time to show how Wudang Hero 7's Taichi sword differs. As you see here, no one except Z3F can tell between Defense / Offense. 张三丰晚年继太极拳所创,实是近世登峰造极的剑术,殷梨亭功劲一加运开,绵绵不绝,虽然伤不了对手,但只求只保,却也是绝无破绽 In Wudang Hero 6 ( don't remember which one), the book showed that Wudang 6 was completely on the defense against ZZR. This shows that ZWJ/Z3F's taichi mastery is different from Wudang Hero's taichi or else it wouldn't be all defense.
    Last edited by Whsie; 06-27-06 at 07:04 PM.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanky Panky
    Alright, what if speedy Wei found out what he was up to and let him do it? RWX is a dead man after that.
    hmmmmm...if speedy Wei's "Han Bing Meen Cheung" had the same effect as Zuo Lengchan's "Han Bing Jun Chi", then yah, he'd be pestering RWX all battle. say RWX was about to use XXDF on a fellow Ming Cult member, speedy Wei would try his best to replace that member with himself. if both had prior knowledge of the others skills, RWX on the other hand would try his best to avoid fighting speedy Wei in order to maximize his offensive potential.

  9. #29
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    LHC on the contrary is different. LHC still has some 300 variations for the sword break stance.
    Right now, LHC still has the 300 something variations.
    You win, I lose.

  10. #30
    Senior Member kwekmh's Avatar
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    ZWJ will trash LHC, but if LHC + DFBB vs ZWJ, its a different story.

    RWX, Chief Blue Phoenix and XWT will most probably own all the rest. Considering all of them will get poisoned if they touch Chief Blue Phoenix and the poisonous stuff she has.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwekmh
    ZWJ will trash LHC, but if LHC + DFBB vs ZWJ, its a different story.

    RWX, Chief Blue Phoenix and XWT will most probably own all the rest. Considering all of them will get poisoned if they touch Chief Blue Phoenix and the poisonous stuff she has.
    yah that Chief Blue definitely has a strong advantage in close quarter combats as shown against those 4 fairies. RWX and XWT can own the 5 San Ren individually and Yin YeWang (whom i place a bit higher than a flag bearer but not as good as a Guardian Lord) as well. XWT would be a bit better than a Guardian Lord, around a Brightness Peak Protector level, while RWX would be a bit better than a Brightness Peak Protector but not sure if he can beat Yang DingTian who stands at QKDNY level 4.
    Last edited by augster123; 06-28-06 at 12:42 PM.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by augster123
    yah that Chief Blue definitely has a strong advantage in close quarter combats as shown against those 4 fairies. RWX and XWT can own the 5 San Ren individually and Yin YeWang (whom i place a bit higher than a flag bearer but not as good as a Guardian Lord) as well. XWT would be a bit better than a Guardian Lord, around a Brightness Peak Protector level, while RWX would be a bit better than a Brightness Peak Protector but not sure if he can beat Yang DingTian who stands at QKDNY level 4.
    If it includes the army, I don't need to say anymore

    I would put Yangdintian and RWX in the same level. It definitely would be hard for those 2. Level 4 QKDLY and RWX's XXDF would make one hell of a fight.
    I think the deterioation theory would probably apply here. In general, HSDS fighters>XAJH fighters. Of course, there are exceptions to the deteriotion theory such as DFBB of XAJH who is ~ Great and SPT of Ode of Gallantary who is >>Great, but I think that sects leaders and their mens would decrease since the deteriotion theory applies to the society and as in exception means a very few. So, I actually think that the 5 San Ren and Yin YeWang can take on the the 10 Demon elders and chief blue phoenix. If they have some trouble, add in Yang xiao and everything would be fine QKDLY 2. The 4 Peach dudes + the 1 guardian (I don't think there was a right hand guardian since RWX originally wanted to make LHC into the right guardian) would probably have some trouble with FY+the 4 Lords.
    The most important part now. If it was ZWJ one on one with LHC, LHC would get creamed badly. If it was one on one with DFBB, maybe ZWJ can win after 3 hours when DFBB drains all of his/her(is it his? He did castrate) internal for running around so much. 2 on 1....., I don't like the looks of this. Unless there is DFBB's lover boy for ZWJ to bully with, I don't think ZWJ can win this duel. If ZWJ really wants a chance at winning, ZWJ must quickly use 7 Injury Fist against LHC to knock LHC out. Then focus on DFBB and just stall it out with defenses.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    If ZWJ really wants a chance at winning, ZWJ must quickly use 7 Injury Fist against LHC to knock LHC out. Then focus on DFBB and just stall it out with defenses.
    Out of all the hand to hand combat techniques he has (Tai Chi Fist, Shaolin Dragon Claws, 7 injury fist, etc.) why do u choose 7 injury fist (the weakest of the three probably) as the one to take out LHC? Shaolin Dragon Claws are pretty useful in its swift and fierce attacks.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by augster123
    Out of all the hand to hand combat techniques he has (Tai Chi Fist, Shaolin Dragon Claws, 7 injury fist, etc.) why do u choose 7 injury fist (the weakest of the three probably) as the one to take out LHC? Shaolin Dragon Claws are pretty useful in its swift and fierce attacks.
    In this 2 on 1 case, which would you use when you want to take LHC out as QUICK as possible? Taichi can beat LHC, but the point is that it wouldn't be like within 10 seconds. You have to realize that there is an annoying DFBB flying around. So the point at this time is to be quick. Dragon Claw can also take LHC out, but not within 10 seconds since it requires mutiple moves. In this case, I see one of 2 best choices. 1 is that ZWJ would use LDA palm blasts and just quickly use as strong as ZWJ and knock LHC out. Or 7 Injury Fist is also another brutal fierce type of technique which can be used to take your opponent out quick. Taichi obviously is the best of all the external aresenals of ZWJ's artillery being the most profound, the most conservative, the strongest, but it's definitely not the quickiest to take an enemy out.

  15. #35
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    I don't think Ming Cult as we know it is likely to win. The Sun Moon Cult simply has more top-tiered fighters as well as an ultimate tiered fighter. Even if we assume (rather generously for the Ming Cult) that DFBB can't beat ZWJ by himself, any combination would. In any case, I wouldn't send LHC against ZWJ. LHC would be better used to defeat Anyone But ZWJ =P

    In fact, I'd send RWX against ZWJ. Even if RWX can't win, he'd tie up ZWJ for a long period of time (that might even be enough to win as he slowly drains ZWJ). DFBB would crush the Green Bat first and then he and LHC can defeat Yang Dingtian and then crush the rest of the Ming Cult before helping RWX.


    As for RWX trying to drain the Green Bat; it won't happen and it wouldn't matter. The freezing effect only applies if he concentrates all his cold ki right where RWX is using a direct drain. There are two problems with this. The Green Bat has a cold attack, so he'd have to land his fist right where RWX is draining. RWX's internal energy is so monstrous that he'd be able to take a fist from the Green Bat.

    The second problem is the real one and that's the fact that RWX doesn't bother using his XXDF against what he considers to be grunts. There are only two people in the Ming Cult he'd even bother using XXDF on: ZWJ and Yang Ding Tian. And unlike BMSG, there's absolutely no indication that XXDF can't be used on people with better internal energy. The limitations are that it doesn't work on YJJ and that it cannot merge the energy streams on their own.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 06-28-06 at 04:17 PM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    I don't think Ming Cult as we know it is likely to win. The Sun Moon Cult simply has more top-tiered fighters as well as an ultimate tiered fighter. Even if we assume (rather generously for the Ming Cult) that DFBB can't beat ZWJ by himself, any combination would. In any case, I wouldn't send LHC against ZWJ. LHC would be better used to defeat Anyone But ZWJ =P

    In fact, I'd send RWX against ZWJ. Even if RWX can't win, he'd tie up ZWJ for a long period of time (that might even be enough to win as he slowly drains ZWJ). DFBB would crush the Green Bat first and then he and LHC can defeat Yang Dingtian and then crush the rest of the Ming Cult before helping RWX.


    As for RWX trying to drain the Green Bat; it won't happen and it wouldn't matter. The freezing effect only applies if he concentrates all his cold ki right where RWX is using a direct drain. There are two problems with this. The Green Bat has a cold attack, so he'd have to land his fist right where RWX is draining. RWX's internal energy is so monstrous that he'd be able to take a fist from the Green Bat.

    The second problem is the real one and that's the fact that RWX doesn't bother using his XXDF against what he considers to be grunts. There are only two people in the Ming Cult he'd even bother using XXDF on: ZWJ and Yang Ding Tian. And unlike BMSG, there's absolutely no indication that XXDF can't be used on people with better internal energy. The limitations are that it doesn't work on YJJ and that it cannot merge the energy streams on their own.
    I wouldn't send RWX against ZWJ. Anyone in this set with the exception of DFBB can't handle ZWJ. RWX would get killed if he goes fight ZWJ. I believe there are ways to "counter" XXDF and ZWJ can perfectly perform some of them. If ZWJ does palm to palm and just keep it there, ZWJ obviously would get his internal drained(and I don't think ZWJ would be that dumb to do that). However, shown in DFBB's case, due to speed, XXDF was ineffective. I'm thinking any power technique would also likely make XXDF ineffective because the moment contact is touched, you wouldn't be sucking your opponent's internal, instead you would be pushed back by the your opponent's stronger energy(or if it's a lot stronger, you would get an internal injury). So in ZWJ's case, ZWJ can push RWX back because ZWJ's palm is more powerful (or possibly injure RWX). Or the safest way to avoid XXDF is to use LDA palm energies or fist energies but this is more wasteful of energy. But any combination of DFBB+some higher level XAJH fighter would be suffiecient to defeat ZWJ. Though DFBB is incredibly quick, but you have to realize qinggong still depletes the internal especially at DFBB's incredible speed. So ZWJ can win, but has to stall it out if it's one on one.

    btw, I'm curious how QKDLY level 5 or higher would do against RWX which should work against RWX. Is it possible that XXDF actually works against RWX since ZWJ redirects XXDF against RWX.
    Last edited by Whsie; 06-28-06 at 05:33 PM.

  17. #37
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    The only reason why XXDF didn't work against DFBB is because of the needle. It was too thin. Even through a sword XXDF works perfectly fine.

    And what makes you think RWX is that much inferior to ZWJ in power? Don't give me Deteoriation Theory. ZWJ should be stronger because of 9 Yang, but not so much that RWX could even remotely possibly be insta-crushed. RWX was a genius in martial arts having many many variations of swords arts as well as formless palm technique. Even weaker fighters can hold off a stronger one by giving way and fighting defensively. Against ZWJ's martial arts, this is the perfect counter. All RWX needs to do is fight defensively, giving way while slowly draining ZWJ's internal energy.


    As for depleting internal energy when using speed, the whole point is that DFBB was so powerful that even using that much speed wasn't tiring him out. Throughout the entire fight, XWT, RWX and LHC were panting and exerting maximum energy while DFBB didn't even make a sound nor breathe hard.

  18. #38
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    sorry for being a newbie...but what's LDA again? is it long-distance attacks?

  19. #39
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Yes, LDA stands for that. DGSD is known for the big powerful types of LDA while XAJH is known for the more subtle but still killer variations.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    The only reason why XXDF didn't work against DFBB is because of the needle. It was too thin. Even through a sword XXDF works perfectly fine.

    And what makes you think RWX is that much inferior to ZWJ in power? Don't give me Deteoriation Theory. ZWJ should be stronger because of 9 Yang, but not so much that RWX could even remotely possibly be insta-crushed. RWX was a genius in martial arts having many many variations of swords arts as well as formless palm technique. Even weaker fighters can hold off a stronger one by giving way and fighting defensively. Against ZWJ's martial arts, this is the perfect counter. All RWX needs to do is fight defensively, giving way while slowly draining ZWJ's internal energy.


    As for depleting internal energy when using speed, the whole point is that DFBB was so powerful that even using that much speed wasn't tiring him out. Throughout the entire fight, XWT, RWX and LHC were panting and exerting maximum energy while DFBB didn't even make a sound nor breathe hard.
    First part. Time to bust out some quotes. 任我行所练的“吸星大法”功力虽深,可是东方不败身法快极,难与相触,二来所使兵刃是一根绣花针,无法从针上吸他内力。There was 2 reasons. 1 was DFBB was too damn quick and contact can't be made. You have to realize XXDF has to have contact in order to start the suck of internal(or contact by weapon to weapon works fine too, but some sort of contact is needed). Of course the 2nd reason was what you said about the needle. But this quote clearly shows that speed can be a factor that can make XXDF ineffective since you can't freakin touch the person!
    Though the rest of my suggestions earlier wasn't mentioned here, but I think those are all ways to counter. As good as RWX's palm power is, I don't think it has reached to this: 张无忌吸一口气,体内真气流转,右掌挥出,一拒一迎,将对方掌力尽行碰了回去。这两股巨力加在一起,那阿二 大叫一声,身子犹似发石机射出的一块大石,喀喇喇一声响,撞破墙壁,冲了出去。
    And there is no indication that this is even full power. And Ah 2 is also no push over who is said to be naturally gifted in fighting. And you have to realize, ZWJ doesn't have a "true" palm technique, yet he is able to cause such damage. He broke the bones of Ah 3 like nothing and Ah 3 who have died if it weren't for ZWJ trying to force that medicine for Wudang Hero 2.阿三一条手臂的臂骨立时断成了六七截,骨骼碎裂,不成模样. 第二个圆圈已生,又是喀喇一响,阿三的左臂亦断,跟着喀喀喀几声,他左腿右腿也被一一绞断。张无忌生平和人 动手,从未下过如此辣手,但此人是害死父母、害苦三师伯、六师叔的大凶手,若非要着落在他身上取到“黑玉断 续膏”,早已取了他性命。Btw, this is the nasty side of ZWJ that we rarely see. Just from 9 Yang chi and no true palm stance, he already causes that much damage, yet RWX has a palm stance (though not known what it is called) and can't do what ZWJ did. Doesn't this suggest that ZWJ's internal is far superior?
    As good as RWX's sword stance is, he still isn't as good as LHC in sword stance. And I did show in an earlier post that ZWJ's taichi sword exceeds LHC's sword at the end of XAJH where LHC still hasn't mastered DG9J (he still has 300+variations).
    Ok, I'll give you the DFBB part. But the point is still the same. ZWJ~DFBB. And I still say that DFBB+any top tier XAJH fighters would be enough to beat ZWJ unless ZWJ takes that helper out quickly.

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