Poll: Ming Cult versus Sun Moon Cult

[ChronoReverse]

There was 2 reasons. 1 was DFBB was too damn quick and contact can't be made. You have to realize XXDF has to have contact in order to start the suck of internal(or contact by weapon to weapon works fine too, but some sort of contact is needed). Of course the 2nd reason was what you said about the needle. But this quote clearly shows that speed can be a factor that can make XXDF ineffective since you can't freakin touch the person!

And that matters when ZWJ isn't that fast?

Though the rest of my suggestions earlier wasn't mentioned here, but I think those are all ways to counter. As good as RWX's palm power is, I don't think it has reached to this: 张无忌吸一口气,体内真气流转,右掌挥出,一拒一迎,将对方掌力尽行碰了回去。这两股巨力加在 一起,那阿二 大叫一声,身子犹似发石机射出的一块大石,喀喇喇一声响,撞破墙壁,冲了出去。

RWX smashed the people in the Plum manor through walls. Perhaps not a thick stone wall, but not an ordinary wall either. And he wasn't even trying at all.

You have remember than XWT, a guy who's like 1% of RWX can push through stone tiles (perhaps not granite but still stone) like butter.

Btw, this is the nasty side of ZWJ that we rarely see. Just from 9 Yang chi and no true palm stance, he already causes that much damage, yet RWX has a palm stance (though not known what it is called) and can't do what ZWJ did. Doesn't this suggest that ZWJ's internal is far superior?

I already mentioned that RWX's palms is considered formless. Plus if you haven't seen the massive smashings RWX can do, how can you say that ZWJ is definitely stronger?

[augster123]

You have remember than XWT, a guy who's like 1% of RWX can push through stone tiles (perhaps not granite but still stone) like butter.

Embellishment i hope in order to get your point across...hahaha i would put RWX at most double XWT power. 100 times stronger is too imbalance.

[ChronoReverse]

Missed a 0. I mean 10%

[augster123]

Missed a 0. I mean 10%

10 times stronger? that's still pretty nuts man...u gettin this from that statement i recall someone typing "RWX = 10 Demon Cult Elders" or something? XWT is a Counselor though not an elder. That's like saying a Brightness Peak Protector = a San Ren.

[Whsie]

And that matters when ZWJ isn't that fast?


RWX smashed the people in the Plum manor through walls. Perhaps not a thick stone wall, but not an ordinary wall either. And he wasn't even trying at all.

You have remember than XWT, a guy who's like 1% of RWX can push through stone tiles (perhaps not granite but still stone) like butter.


I already mentioned that RWX's palms is considered formless. Plus if you haven't seen the massive smashings RWX can do, how can you say that ZWJ is definitely stronger?

1. The first point is to show that there are possibly ways to avoid and "counter" XXDF. And of course it wouldn't matter since ZWJ isn't that fast. But if ZWJ's palm is stronger, than that is a way to "counter" XXDF or just use LDA.
2. And those people that got smashed were as strong and as talented as Ah 2? Highly doubtful. This was what RWX was doing 任我行袍袖轻轻一拂，黑白子立足不定，仰天一交摔了出去，砰的一声，脑袋重重撞在墙上。任我行冷笑道：“你 功力已失，废人一个，First, your right, RWX didn't try. But the person first DIDN'T smash through a wall and second, he completely lost all his power. I think even MRF's lackey's can do it. It's not hard especially when throwing a person that lost all his martial arts. 那人迈步向前，遇到墙壁，双手一推，轰隆一声响，墙上登时穿了一个大洞，那人便从墙洞中走了进去。向问天伸 手挽住令狐冲的右手，并肩走进屋去。This was using palm which is easier than using palm energy on a person and making him smash through a wall. But as shown there is still no indication that RWX was using any power either. But so far from this part compared to ZWJ's battle, ZWJ still seems much more impressive especially against a person as talented as Ah 2 who is described-这阿二是“金刚门”中的异人，天生神力，由外而内，居然另辟蹊径，练成了一身深厚内功，造诣早已远远超过了 当年的师祖火工头陀，可说乃是天授。在他双掌之下，极少有人接得住三招.
Breaking a wall is not hard for ZWJ. All he had to do is just put his hand on the wall and then send the chi.
I have read XAJH, and I just reread the section where RWX fought ZLChang and Fang Zhang. It's not formless. I think you are referring to this: 本门的大嵩阳神掌与之相比，显得招数太繁，变化大多，不如他这掌法的攻其一点，不及其余。” I don't think this is considered formless. If this is not what you're referring to, then show me some quotes that show RWX's palm is formless.

[ChronoReverse]

From the way RWX bats everyone around like flies, 10X stronger really wouldn't shock me. And with a martial art like XXDF, building up massive internal energy isn't surprising either.

And the people RWX slapped through the wall died. Who knows what happened to them.


As for a more powerful palm, I've already mentioned how if you're defending AND giving way, you can easily last a long time. RWX may be weaker than ZWJ (I think so myself), but not so much that he'll be instantly crushed. If he just moves back while defending, he'll eventually drain ZWJ. And if ZWJ starts to use LDA, then he's giving up his advantage of energy conservation and lasting power. And there's still nothing preventing RWX from continually giving way to dissipate force.

I based my idea that RWX is pretty much a formless type fighter by FCY's comments about strong fighters. Perhaps he's not as formless as I thought. Seems he does have many variations though.

[Whsie]

From the way RWX bats everyone around like flies, 10X stronger really wouldn't shock me. And with a martial art like XXDF, building up massive internal energy isn't surprising either.

And the people RWX slapped through the wall died. Who knows what happened to them.


As for a more powerful palm, I've already mentioned how if you're defending AND givcing way, you can easily last a long time. RWX may be weaker than ZWJ (I think so myself), but not so much that he'll be instantly crushed. If he just moves back while defending, he'll eventually drain ZWJ.

1. I don't know about that, but 10X seem slighty overexxagerated.
2. Well, first RWX didn't slapp, he threw. And second, if you're referring to the person in my quote that person had his internal completely sucked by LHC was he was empty. And even XWT could do what RWX did. Also, the wall didn't break. And ZWJ blasted a much more talented person. According to my memory, I don't remember any other scenes that RWX threw someone threw a wall. If there is, plz tell me and I'll go see.
3. If you are completely on defenses, you can naturally last a long time like what YG did to ZBT. Well, ok, I never said that ZWJ would instantly crush RWX either. I said that ZWJ can likely crush LHC quickly since LHC didn't master the palm stance of DG9J. But as in drain, contact is needed which wouldn't work against ZWJ if ZWJ uses LDA since some sort of contact is needed.

[Black Night Sea]

Zuo Lengchan, Abbot Fang Zheng and Chongxu Daozhang were described to be "half a notch above" somebody of Xiang Wentian's calibre.

And I did show in an earlier post that ZWJ's taichi sword exceeds LHC's sword at the end of XAJH where LHC still hasn't mastered DG9J (he still has 300+variations).

[Whsie]

Zuo Lengchan, Abbot Fang Zheng and Chongxu Daozhang were described to be "half a notch above" somebody of Xiang Wentian's calibre.

Btw, you reminded me. XWT shouldn't be 10X from RWX. As shown here- 向问天却想：“少林派武功享名千载，果然非同小可。方证大师这‘千手如来掌’掌法虽繁，功力不散，那真是千 难万难。倘若教我遇上了，只好跟他硬拚内力，掌法是比他不过的了。” It's implied that XWT can possibly match Fang Zhang in internal or at least is somewhere around in that category.
And I found it, it's 360 variations. And the concepts in words has over 3000 words. And the 3000 words is just the basis on DG9J which is the first stance alone.

[ChronoReverse]

Hmm. Strange how XWT actually thought that while FZ's palms were way beyond him that he could match internal energy. FZ mastered YJJ, shouldn't his internal energy be massive as well? Then again XWT does demonstrate that his own internal energy is extremely profound.

Still, it doesn't make sense that RWX would be anything less than a few multiples of XWT considering that XWT isn't a top-tiered fighter and RWX has drained many many people.

[Whsie]

Hmm. Strange how XWT actually thought that while FZ's palms were way beyond him that he could match internal energy. FZ mastered YJJ, shouldn't his internal energy be massive as well? Then again XWT does demonstrate that his own internal energy is extremely profound.

Still, it doesn't make sense that RWX would be anything less than a few multiples of XWT considering that XWT isn't a top-tiered fighter and RWX has drained many many people.

Well everyone in this forum says that XAJH's YJJ is a lot weaker. And I'm not sure if Fang Zheng achieved mastery of YJJ because mastery is the key. You could learn lots of arts like MRF and have nothing because you mastered 30% of each art. Those 30% arts are literally useless.

[ChronoReverse]

Well everyone in this forum says that XAJH's YJJ is a lot weaker. And I'm not sure if Fang Zheng achieved mastery of YJJ because mastery is the key. You could learn lots of arts like MRF and have nothing because you mastered 30% of each art. Those 30% arts are literally useless.

Well, we do know he's better than HYS in LOCH. HYS was able to throw a sheet of paper (and that impressed everyone) straight out, but FZ was able to send a sheet of paper straight out AND carrying enough force to send a shock.

This isn't an indication of power of internal energy but a demonstration of utter control (something XAJH characters seem to be good at).

[Black Night Sea]

And the concepts in words has over 3000 words. And the 3000 words is just the basis on DG9J which is the first stance alone.

Which isn't the sword-breaking stance. If you have read LHC's fight with RWX and his sifu, then you should understand well enough that there was no chance his sword variations was limited to a mere 360.

Still, it doesn't make sense that RWX would be anything less than a few multiples of XWT considering that XWT isn't a top-tiered fighter and RWX has drained many many people.

Not a lot of things make sense in wuxia fiction.

Ouyang Feng's inner strength was supposed to be unrecoverable for a certain period after being pwned by WCY's Yiyang Zhi. Despite this, he's still on par with the other Greats tens of years later.

Wuyazi's inner strength was said to be more-or-less equal to Tianshan Tonglao and LQS despite inheriting the famed skill of BMSG.

[Whsie]

Which isn't the sword-breaking stance. If you have read LHC's fight with RWX and his sifu, then you should understand well enough that there was no chance his sword variations was limited to a mere 360.


Not a lot of things make sense in wuxia fiction.

Ouyang Feng's inner strength was supposed to be unrecoverable for a certain period after being pwned by WCY's Yiyang Zhi. Despite this, he's still on par with the other Greats tens of years later.

Wuyazi's inner strength was said to be more-or-less equal to Tianshan Tonglao and LQS despite inheriting the famed skill of BMSG.

等到通晓了这九剑的剑意，则无所施而不可，便是将全部变化尽数忘记. 便在睡梦之中，想到的也只是独孤九剑的种种变化， Well, this is to just show that variations still exist within LHC's every stance. What I think LHC's DG9J is that it's close to formlessness, but haven't completely reached it since LHC still has 360 variation. Once he totally forgets variation, then he trully reaches formless stage like how ZWJ did except ZWJ forgot the stances and variations within minutes.
一晚之间学会三招，未免强人所难，这第二招暂且用不着，咱们只学第一招和第三招。不过……不过……第三招中 的许多变化，是从第二招而来，好，and 第一招中的三百六十种变化如果忘记了一变，第三招便会使得不对，这倒有些为难了。What I think the quote is implying is that the first stance is the basis of all. It does say that if you just forget one the 360 variations, you can't execute Break Blade stance

[Black Night Sea]

LHC vs YBQ

敵招倘若只有一 招，他也只有一招，敵招有千招萬招，他也有千招萬招。 然在岳不群眼中看來，對方劍法之繁，更遠勝于己，只怕再斗三日三 夜，也仍有新招出來，
If the enemy has one move, he’ll have one move. If the enemy can attack with thousands and thousands of stances, he could also reply back with myriads of stances. In the eyes of YBQ, the intricateness and variety of his opponent’s sword technique far exceeded his own. It’s very likely that even if they were to continue battling for 3 days and 3 nights, he’ll still have more new moves hidden beneath his sleeve.

(This does not include repeated moves btw)

Let's not forget that Pixie Jianfa contains 72 different stances. All of which has dozens of variations. Suppose 30 was the index no. of variations for each move, then Pixie Jianfa would have more than 2000 different sword attacks.

The main reason behind YBQ’s defeat owed to his inexperience with this particular sword technique, LHC trained longer in DG9J. Hence why he repeated the same stance 3 times in his fight with LHC leading to his eventual defeat.

[Whsie]

LHC vs YBQ
(This does not include repeated moves btw)

Let's not forget that Pixie Jianfa contains 72 different stances. All of which has dozens of variations. Suppose 30 was the index no. of variations for each move, then Pixie Jianfa would have more than 2000 different sword attacks.

The main reason behind YBQ’s defeat owed to his inexperience with this particular sword technique, LHC trained longer in DG9J. Hence why he repeated the same stance 3 times in his fight with LHC leading to his eventual defeat.

Ok, I'll make this simple. LHC even if he has 10000 variations on the sword break stance, he still has variations. And the basis is from the 360 variation. Variations of the sword technique exists. In contrast to ZWJ's taichi where there is 0 variations on the sword technique, anything ZWJ uses can be 100% new that Z3F might not have thought of, that is true formlessness.
If we use IcyFox martial art system of formlessness, in the style of martial art category, LHC's mastery of DG9J would place him in Initial Formless Style. Very close to formless, but not there yet. Z3F's Taichi would be at Supreme Formlessness where he can make his own parts, and variations don't exist anymore. This is why I put Z3F's sword abilities above WCY's or LCY's. Like what LCY did to WCY, all she had to do was just study and know the stances, then WCY's sword stances are all broken. Z3F's taichi creates stances out of nowhere. There's no way you can study that stance beforehand because it has never been used before.
And anyway, DG9J is suppose to be better than PXJF. Not just from experience, but also the sword technique itself, DG9J is higher level.

[ChronoReverse]

In any case. For RWX versus ZWJ, I still don't see how ZWJ could possibly knock RWX out immediately if both are aware of each other's prowess. And unless we make the unlikely assertion that XXDF doesn't work on 9 Yang, an extended battle isn't in ZWJ's favour. Furthermore, LHC plus DFBB clearly outclasses every other fighter in the Ming Cult.

"Lord Xue Xiang's whole body was covered by a gold metal gown. He used this gold metal gown to practise kung fu and even a sabre cannot chop through it. But someone managed to grab and dig out his heart through the gown using just his five fingers. Besides this bastard, in this world, there's no second person who can do this... " reasoned Bao DaChu.

To reach and push your fingers right through metal uncuttable by sabers. Sounds pretty impressive.


BTW, I remembered completely wrong about the wall part. I was just thinking of when RWX pushed a wall over.

[CC]

The gist of it is that Sun Moon Sect has 3 cheesecakes while Ming has only 1 cheesecake even if it though it might be sliced bigger.

Any combo of DFBB + LHC or RWX should hold off ZWJ. Or let LHC and RWX hold off ZWJ whole DFBB mops the floor with all the slow-motion Ming fighters. Then its 3 on ZWJ.

I don't see how Ming cult can pull off a win. They'll lose every guy in the end. Unless ZWJ makes Zhang SanFeng an honorary Ming Cult Grand Ancestor. That will even things up.

[Whsie]

In any case. For RWX versus ZWJ, I still don't see how ZWJ could possibly knock RWX out immediately if both are aware of each other's prowess. And unless we make the unlikely assertion that XXDF doesn't work on 9 Yang, an extended battle isn't in ZWJ's favour. Furthermore, LHC plus DFBB clearly outclasses every other fighter in the Ming Cult.

ZWJ WOULD kill RWX if that was his intention eventually. That's what I said earlier. But I certainly never said that ZWJ would kill RWX quickly. Especially if RWX goes completly on the defenses, this battle wouldn't finish quickly. Actually extended battle if it were just between RWX and ZWJ, the extended battle would favor ZWJ because RWX is starting to age and get old in comparision to ZWJ's conservative arts and extremly young age. However if it was an extended battle while the 2 cults were fighting, THEN it would be unfavorable for ZWJ because there would be an annoying DFBB killing off everyone who needs ZWJ to handle.
I'm not saying that XXDF wouldn't neccesary work against 9 Yang. I actually think it would work, but I said there are ways to counter XXDF. The biggest thing about XXDF is that contact of some sort even through weapon is needed. Speed like DFBB can cause problems because you can't touch him. Having a more powered attack can push back or cause injuries before you can absorb anything. Using LDA can completely avoid contact and just blast from long range while avoiding XXDF.
Ok, possible scenarios:
1. XF give RWX a palm blast from 3+ zhang. Can RWX absorb anything? No. And RWX might even get injured.
2. XF goes palm to palm with a Kong Long You Hwai. Do you think RWX can actually keep it palm to palm? No. RWX would be blasted back several steps or if the palm is trully that much stronger than RWX's, RWX would get an injury.
3. XLN blazing all around. Can RWX use his XXDF on her when he can't even clearly see her? Obviously no unless XLN is stupid enough to go in close.
ZWJ can at least perform 1 or 2 up there. But maybe not 3. ZWJ may be faster, but not fast enough to cause problems.

[Whsie]

The gist of it is that Sun Moon Sect has 3 cheesecakes while Ming has only 1 cheesecake even if it though it might be sliced bigger.

Any combo of DFBB + LHC or RWX should hold off ZWJ. Or let LHC and RWX hold off ZWJ whole DFBB mops the floor with all the slow-motion Ming fighters. Then its 3 on ZWJ.

I don't see how Ming cult can pull off a win. They'll lose every guy in the end. Unless ZWJ makes Zhang SanFeng an honorary Ming Cult Grand Ancestor. That will even things up.

Well, technically, it's Ming cult has 1 cheesecake and one cake while Sun/Moon sect has 1 cheesecake and 2 cakes. I think you forgot Yangdintian.