View Poll Results: Who will take the cake?

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  • Ming Cult

    37 62.71%
  • Sun Moon Cult

    22 37.29%
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Thread: Poll: Ming Cult versus Sun Moon Cult

  1. #61
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    1. XF give RWX a palm blast from 3+ zhang. Can RWX absorb anything? No. And RWX might even get injured.
    2. XF goes palm to palm with a Kong Long You Hwai. Do you think RWX can actually keep it palm to palm? No. RWX would be blasted back several steps or if the palm is trully that much stronger than RWX's, RWX would get an injury.
    3. XLN blazing all around. Can RWX use his XXDF on her when he can't even clearly see her? Obviously no unless XLN is stupid enough to go in close.
    ZWJ can at least perform 1 or 2 up there. But maybe not 3. ZWJ may be faster, but not fast enough to cause problems.
    Look this is all academic. We're talking about ZWJ here.

    ZWJ is powerful, but not as fierce as XF. Plus just by going defensive, moving back and just parrying, RWX would both make contact AND be able to withstand attack. Draining is obviously much slower, hence why I've been saying slowly drain. As long as ZWJ doesn't specialize in a powerful strike attack like XF does, he simply is unlikely to bring enough force to bear in a single strike against someone who's even close to his ability.



    Long Distance Attacks are all good and nice but it still applies that you can move back and parry. This can't be absorbed, but launching such attacks continuously is certain drain energy faster than anything.



    As for XLN, it depends on whether she's fast enough to avoid all contact. Unless XLN is using her technique with a dozen+ swords, I'd say not. RWX would win out in internal energy AND be able to slowly drain her.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    Look this is all academic. We're talking about ZWJ here.

    ZWJ is powerful, but not as fierce as XF. Plus just by going defensive, moving back and just parrying, RWX would both make contact AND be able to withstand attack. Draining is obviously much slower, hence why I've been saying slowly drain. As long as ZWJ doesn't specialize in a powerful strike attack like XF does, he simply is unlikely to bring enough force to bear in a single strike against someone who's even close to his ability.



    Long Distance Attacks are all good and nice but it still applies that you can move back and parry. This can't be absorbed, but launching such attacks continuously is certain drain energy faster than anything.



    As for XLN, it depends on whether she's fast enough to avoid all contact. Unless XLN is using her technique with a dozen+ swords, I'd say not. RWX would win out in internal energy AND be able to slowly drain her.
    1. You have to realize the situation that ZWJ combats in. If it was a cult vs. cult case, ZWJ wouldn't be playing defense because he knows that there is a DFBB out there killing everyone. I know XF is more fierce than ZWJ. But ZWJ's palm power which showed better power seems enough to at least push RWX back before he got any internal. In addition, since ZWJ's palm power is stronger, ZWJ doesn't have to move back and parry. Remember the 2 Xuanmin elders fight? ZWJ wasn't playing around playing defense the second time. He was making the palm fly! Using just 30% of ZWJ's internal, one of the Xuanmin elders already were spitting blood out. And 60% or higher would have been sufficient to kill one of the Xuanmin elders in just one hit. That's how good ZWJ's palm power is despite the fact that he doesn't even have a palm technique. And even if RWX somehow got any within that .5 seconds-1 second, it's barely any. Furthermore, RWX has to keep his XXDF activated the whole time (not efficiently using your internal) or else he would get nothing. This style of fighting doesn't seem a wise choice.
    2. LDA. Yes it would take more energy. But ZWJ is way younger. He has more energy to spend . If it was to be a LDA, ZWJ would move back a certain distance and start blasting it. RWX has to recieve each blast (he can't absorb it because of contact needed) or dodge it which is pretty difficult.
    3. XLN's speed seems fast enough as qinggong is the specialty of the tomb sect. In this type of combat, XLN is using twin swords. So XLN is not in close, but far away controlling swords that move like lighting. I don't think RWX can even take the swords. Internal energy difference would not be as big as a factor. It's proved in XLN's famous battle. XLN's internal was weaker than all 3 Mongolian warriors. In this type of battle, you need 9 Yin to counter XLN's Jade Maiden.

  3. #63
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    That's how good ZWJ's palm power is despite the fact that he doesn't even have a palm technique. And even if RWX somehow got any within that .5 seconds-1 second, it's barely any. Furthermore, RWX has to keep his XXDF activated the whole time (not efficiently using your internal) or else he would get nothing. This style of fighting doesn't seem a wise choice.
    LHC drains unconsciously. XXDF has no indication that it needs energy to maintain "on".


    2. LDA. Yes it would take more energy. But ZWJ is way younger. He has more energy to spend . If it was to be a LDA, ZWJ would move back a certain distance and start blasting it. RWX has to recieve each blast (he can't absorb it because of contact needed) or dodge it which is pretty difficult.
    And so RWX keeps moving back. ZWJ has only so much range and has to come in closer. That doesn't sound too bad for RWX. Keep leaping back while ZWJ wastes internal energy. You have to remember that RWX has strong internal energy too and can effortlessly leap twenty feet back. Even ZWJ's LDA's can't go 20 feet without severely weakening.

    And if we have the cult versus cult battle and RWX really wants to win (he's intelligent anyway), he'd definitely be able to tie up ZWJ for a long while. And that's really all it'll take for DFBB and LHC to clean up.


    3. XLN's speed seems fast enough as qinggong is the specialty of the tomb sect. In this type of combat, XLN is using twin swords. So XLN is not in close, but far away controlling swords that move like lighting. I don't think RWX can even take the swords. Internal energy difference would not be as big as a factor. It's proved in XLN's famous battle. XLN's internal was weaker than all 3 Mongolian warriors. In this type of battle, you need 9 Yin to counter XLN's Jade Maiden.
    XLN was only winning because she was using more than a dozen swords. If she were just using two, she'd have a flawless defense but little attack power.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 06-28-06 at 10:32 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    LHC drains unconsciously. XXDF has no indication that it needs energy to maintain "on".


    And so RWX keeps moving back. ZWJ has only so much range and has to come in closer. That doesn't sound too bad for RWX. Keep leaping back while ZWJ wastes internal energy. You have to remember that RWX has strong internal energy too and can effortlessly leap twenty feet back. Even ZWJ's LDA's can't go 20 feet without severely weakening.

    And if we have the cult versus cult battle and RWX really wants to win (he's intelligent anyway), he'd definitely be able to tie up ZWJ for a long while. And that's really all it'll take for DFBB and LHC to clean up.


    XLN was only winning because she was using more than a dozen swords. If she were just using two, she'd have a flawless defense but little attack power.
    1. Ok, I'll give you this one, but even so, RWX would pratically absorb nothing and nothing that would change the outcome of the battle.
    2. If RWX is too close for comfort, ZWJ moves back and fires. If too far and they are playing cat and mouse, ZWJ has better qinggong then RWX. Surely, ZWJ would be wise enough to only blast out his palm when he is within range(Like how Li Qiushui did to XZ and Tianshan Tonglao, LQS only attacked when she got within range).
    3. I did say that this battle wouldn't end instantly. And if RWX really wants to stall time, he could stall some time. But not forever because if it's cat mouse chasing, ZWJ has the better qinggong. If it's RWX going in, ZWJ would be happy to give RWX a palm or if ZWJ doesn't want to take the risk, ZWJ can move back and blast LDA(as long as LDA is within range).
    4. I know, when the 3 Mongolian warriors surrounded XLN, all they had to do was play 100% defense and close in, then XLN would be squashed. But if it had been 1 on 1, this strategy wouldn't work. And XLN against RWX wouldn't be a one on one case.
    Last edited by Whsie; 06-28-06 at 10:44 PM.

  5. #65
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    Frankly, the three mongolian fighters were clearly not that powerful either. But I'm not really interested in this point.



    Even though RWX isn't as strong as ZWJ, he certainly was strong enough that his confinement reflected this. A steel door wasn't enough, they had multiple doors padded with cotton to absorb his blows just in case he escaped.

    His hands were powerful enough to rend apart armour than even a saber can't chop through. Simply put, RWX is pretty damn strong. And with martial art fights that can go on for several hours, I'd think RWX would last at least an hour against ZWJ.

    Besides, after DFBB and LHC takes out Yang Ding Tian (and Green Bat for the sake of argument against XXDF), the rest of the cult members are relatively closely matched. And DFBB is really really fast. XLN was too fast for the mongolian fighters, but she had multiple weapons to do it with. DFBB used a single 1 inch needle. And wasn't even breathing hard.
    Last edited by ChronoReverse; 06-28-06 at 10:54 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoReverse
    Frankly, the three mongolian fighters were clearly not that powerful either. But I'm not really interested in this point.



    Even though RWX isn't as strong as ZWJ, he certainly was strong enough that his confinement reflected this. A steel door wasn't enough, they had multiple doors padded with cotton to absorb his blows just in case he escaped.

    His hands were powerful enough to rend apart armour than even a saber can't chop through. Simply put, RWX is pretty damn strong. And with martial art fights that can go on for several hours, I'd think RWX would last at least an hour against ZWJ.

    Besides, after DFBB and LHC takes out Yang Ding Tian (and Green Bat for the sake of argument against XXDF), the rest of the cult members are relatively closely matched. And DFBB is really really fast. XLN was too fast for the mongolian fighters, but she had multiple weapons to do it with. DFBB used a single 1 inch needle. And wasn't even breathing hard.
    Any one of the mongolian fighters had more internal than XLN at that time. It's the speed with the amazing external Jade Maiden that puts her a notch below the Greats. If it were internal, XLN was far weaker.
    Yes, RWX is powerful. I never denied that. But certainly weaker than ZWJ. Even if RWX tried to stall it out, I don't think RWX can hold on more than 1 hour because if it's chase, ZWJ has the better qinggong, and if it's close, ZWJ can move back. Either way, ZWJ has the control on the distance because of better qinggong.

  7. #67
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    Yes, RWX is powerful. I never denied that. But certainly weaker than ZWJ. Even if RWX tried to stall it out, I don't think RWX can hold on more than 1 hour because if it's chase, ZWJ has the better qinggong, and if it's close, ZWJ can move back. Either way, ZWJ has the control on the distance because of better qinggong.
    Thats already enough. In 1 hour, DFBB and LHC would have long killed off the rest of the Ming Cult.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    Just a quick comment before i jumped out from this topic.

    IMHO, it is probably beyond the capability of RWX to drain ZWJ's 9 Yang to a significant extent that would alter any match between the two.

    If RWX had significant trouble in the fight with the Shaolin Fang Zhen due to his boundless internal energy while the Shaolin Abbot was using Thousand hand Buddha Palm, then it is likely that ZWJ's 9 Yang would cause more trouble for RWX.

    However, this is academic, as in any one to one fight between these two cults, ZWJ would fight with DFBB. It would be extremely hard for ZWJ to cope with the speed and power of KHBB.

    Han Solo
    P/s to Whsie: Where's this text about this 360 variation of DG9J? I had never even read about this before.

  9. #69
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    RWX couldn't drain FZ at all. That was the real problem. Then FZ beat him senseless until he had to cheat to win.

  10. #70
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whsie
    Well, technically, it's Ming cult has 1 cheesecake and one cake while Sun/Moon sect has 1 cheesecake and 2 cakes. I think you forgot Yangdintian.
    Yang Ding Tian? I put him as a big crumb. Not a full cake. He 'only' got to level 4! Even if RWX could not get to level 7, He should be able to master level 5 or 6. C'mon, deterioration theory or not, this guy is still a Genius. And even if taken with a pinch of salt, the statement that 'DGKB would be pleased to meet him' still indicates an outstanding martial talent.

    If its YDT vs RWX, I'd place my bets on RWX anyday.

    Anyway. I don't see where the argument is. Everybody agrees that RWX can't overpower ZWJ but can stall him at the very least. Thats enough for DFBB and LHC to finish the rest off.

  11. #71
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    Agree with CC and ChronoReverse.

    Frankly speaking, the rest of the Ming Cult just aren't even comparable to Zhang Wuji by a wide margin, whereas for the Sun Moon Cult, there are three or four top tier in the form of RWX, LHC, DFBB, and (to a much lesser degree) XWT.

    Now, if Z3F wanted to help out, or Zhu Yuanzhuang had the Ming army...

  12. #72
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    I'd even stick my neck out and say that DFBB alone could defeat ZWJ.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC
    I'd even stick my neck out and say that DFBB alone could defeat ZWJ.
    i highly doubt that, ZWJ should be able to edge him out a bit with his boundless 9 Yang Shen Gong as well as the 7 levels of QKDNY backing him up.
    had DFBB completely mastered KFBD, then it'd be a completely different story.

    how do u guys compare DFBB's fight with LHC, RWX and XWT with ZWJ's fight with the 3 'Du' Generation Divine monks/ZWJ's fight against Kun Lun Headmaster and his wife and the 2 Hua Shan Elders?

    i personally place Yang DingTian a bit above 2 Brightness Peak Protectors as he was mentioned to have defeated one of the 'Du' Divine monks who was relatively equal to a Brightness Peak Protector (YX) and a Guardian Lord (White Eagle King).

    RWX as mentioned before i'd place him at most with powers 2 times XWT. XXDF is certainly confusing...does the internal energy he sucks stick with him permanently? or just temporarily?

  14. #74
    Senior Member Han Solo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by augster123
    i highly doubt that, ZWJ should be able to edge him out a bit with his boundless 9 Yang Shen Gong as well as the 7 levels of QKDNY backing him up.
    had DFBB completely mastered KFBD, then it'd be a completely different story.

    how do u guys compare DFBB's fight with LHC, RWX and XWT with ZWJ's fight with the 3 'Du' Generation Divine monks/ZWJ's fight against Kun Lun Headmaster and his wife and the 2 Hua Shan Elders?

    i personally place Yang DingTian a bit above 2 Brightness Peak Protectors as he was mentioned to have defeated one of the 'Du' Divine monks who was relatively equal to a Brightness Peak Protector (YX) and a Guardian Lord (White Eagle King).

    RWX as mentioned before i'd place him at most with powers 2 times XWT. XXDF is certainly confusing...does the internal energy he sucks stick with him permanently? or just temporarily?
    1) ZWJ is certainly impressive but where do you get the idea that DFBB did not master KHBD?

    2) Comparing the two scenarios are not helpful, ZWJ at that time was quite inexperienced in external techniques, and his opponents are not in top class fighter of that time.

    3) There's no way to place a numerical value that says that RWX is x times better than XWT.

    4) XXDF's absorbed energies stays forever in the absorber's body.

    Han Solo

  15. #75
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    I don't think RWX's ability to stick his fingers through that gold armor gown is an indication of having immense internal power. Ah 2 was able to make deep marks on a gold nugget with Diamond Fingers, and so could the Kong monks, and Kong Sheng got completely pwned by a newbie ZWJ, whereas Ah 2 got his limbs all broken about 10 seconds after ZWJ got pissed.

    But as said before ZWJ would fight DFBB anyway.

  16. #76
    Moderator Ren Wo Xing's Avatar
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    That's the thing. They could do it with specialized techniques deliberately used that would focus internal energy and years of training in specifically their fingers.

    Ren Woxing could just do it by poking at the golden armor.

  17. #77
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    That gold armour is special though. Normal gold (as it was mentioned in HSDS) is soft, but the immense finger pressure was stunning in HSDS. A sword would still be able to cleave them in half though.

    The special gold armour mentioned in XAJH was unpenetrable by sabers. Yet, RWX, without any special technique, used brute power to go right it.

  18. #78
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    I propose a new battle strategy for the Sun Moon Sect. Ren Woxing and Linghu Chong hold off Zhang Wuji while Dongfang Bubai coats his needle with Chief Blue Phoenix's poison. The rest of the Sun Moon Sect rush the Ming Cult and cause a ruckus while Dongfang Bubai flies around poking every single member of the Ming Cult with his poisoned needle ...

    Then, Dongfang Bubai joins in with Ren Woxing and Linghu Chong to finish off Zhang Wuji. I think the difference in this battle is that Dongfang Bubai is able to take on a LOT of high-tiered fighters at once and effortlessly, because of ridiculous speed and immense internal energy. I don't see the same strategy working for the Ming Cult. Zhang Wuji was able to hold off and match the three Du generation monks (could be argued that it was because of their formation), but Dongfang Bubai simply wiped the floor with the XAJH trio that he faced.
    Last edited by bliss; 06-29-06 at 11:29 AM.
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  19. #79
    Senior Member CC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bliss
    I propose a new battle strategy for the Sun Moon Sect. Ren Woxing and Linghu Chong hold off Zhang Wuji while Dongfang Bubai coats his needle with Chief Blue Phoenix's poison. The rest of the Sun Moon Sect rush the Ming Cult and cause a ruckus while Dongfang Bubai flies around poking every single member of the Ming Cult with his poisoned needle ...
    I modify your strategy by coating 2 longswords instead and giving one to DFBB and the other to LHC.

  20. #80
    Senior Member ChronoReverse's Avatar
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    If DFBB had a sword, he wouldn't need to use poison. He'd just kill them outright.

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