Poll: Ming Cult versus Sun Moon Cult

[KJ]

RWX couldn't drain FZ at all. That was the real problem. Then FZ beat him senseless until he had to cheat to win.

Was that because of YYJ or was that because FZ's internal power was too abundant?

[Whsie]

i highly doubt that, ZWJ should be able to edge him out a bit with his boundless 9 Yang Shen Gong as well as the 7 levels of QKDNY backing him up.
had DFBB completely mastered KFBD, then it'd be a completely different story.

how do u guys compare DFBB's fight with LHC, RWX and XWT with ZWJ's fight with the 3 'Du' Generation Divine monks/ZWJ's fight against Kun Lun Headmaster and his wife and the 2 Hua Shan Elders?

i personally place Yang DingTian a bit above 2 Brightness Peak Protectors as he was mentioned to have defeated one of the 'Du' Divine monks who was relatively equal to a Brightness Peak Protector (YX) and a Guardian Lord (White Eagle King).

RWX as mentioned before i'd place him at most with powers 2 times XWT. XXDF is certainly confusing...does the internal energy he sucks stick with him permanently? or just temporarily?

ONe of the lord/protector does no equal one Du generation. When the 2nd Du fight started, it was 1 on 1 for all 6 fighters. Yangxiao and YinTZ couldn't handle it, so they merged together on the weakest monk who is Dunan. Even so, Dunan still has having the upperhand. Yangxiao was on the outside throwing weapons around. Not using trully competing internal. YinTZ on the contrary was down there taking in the dangerous Semuru Mountain Palm (Supreme Shaolin art). YinTZ clearly was losing competing palms. But since YinTZ was still taking it in by and getting pushed one step back, I would say YinTZ would be 1.5 levels lower.
1 Du Generation is relative to one Xuan monk of DGSD. Yangdintian beated one 1 Du Generation. So Yangdintian is somewhere in Xuanci calibre, if not, slightly lower.

[Whsie]

1) ZWJ is certainly impressive but where do you get the idea that DFBB did not master KHBD?

2) Comparing the two scenarios are not helpful, ZWJ at that time was quite inexperienced in external techniques, and his opponents are not in top class fighter of that time.

3) There's no way to place a numerical value that says that RWX is x times better than XWT.

4) XXDF's absorbed energies stays forever in the absorber's body.

Han Solo

1. I think what the person meant was that DFBB didn't practice the FULL KHBD. Remember? KHBD and Pi Xie Jian Fa were just a small portion of the original KHBD that got destroyed.
2. Not really. 1 Du Generation is really powerful. Especially with Jin Gang Fu Muo Chuan with makes them like one. A Du Generation monk would probably be the strongest fighers in HSDS after Z3F and ZWJ.
3) Don't know about this one
4) Yep

[Dennis Chen]

If young Zhang does use Taichi Sword on LHC he will lose in a heartbeat. Because you see there’s a potential flaw in the Taichi Jian Swordplay, and LHC has already exploited it from his encounter with the Taoist Priest Chongxu.

Even if there is a flaw, the real question is whether or not LHC can take advantage of it. LHC's DGJJ may have defeated Chong Xu's Taijijian, but LHC could not have defeated Chong Xu.

[bliss]

Even if there is a flaw, the real question is whether or not LHC can take advantage of it. LHC's DGJJ may have defeated Chong Xu's Taijijian, but LHC could not have defeated Chong Xu.

Is that why Chong Xu refused to fight him in a rematch and instead let Ren Woxing and Xiang Wentian walk off the mountain to wreak havoc on wulin? I think it was very clearly stated that it was Chong Xu who couldn't defeat Linghu Chong, even Chong Xu admitted it himself ...

[ChronoReverse]

I think the key here is that even if that flaw wasn't a flaw, CX still couldn't beat LHC. CX had no way to defeat LHC while LHC has a slight flaw to exploit. Furthermore, as the fight goes on, LHC would only drain more and more of CX's energy.

[augster123]

yeah...i meant if the complete and original KFBD was mastered by DFBB, then it'd be a different story. XXDF sounds pretty imbalanced though if it allows the user to keep the internal energy he sucked cuz if thats the case, then technically, RWX has the potential to be 100 times stronger than XWT. but whats the limitations to this technique? i know ZLC's "Han Bing Jun Chi" basically owned it...the Shaolin Abbot's energy couldn't be sucked but still that part has not been clarified as to why....

yah Yang DingTian being the third best fighter in HSDS fighting against RWX, who is arguably the third or fourth best fighter in XAJH, should be a good match. i dont think any of u should quickly decide upon a winner before discussing what would happen in such a battle.

[ChronoReverse]

Well, third best can mean many things. And In this case, 3rd best in XAJH means a lot more than 3rd best in HSDS. RWX might not be as strong as ZWJ, but he definitely is in the same league (like how QQR is in the same league as the Greats). Yang Dingtian simply isn't in the same league as ZWJ.


As for unbalanced XXDF. This isn't a game. Things are unbalanced; that's why there are best martial arts. Stuff like BMSG, 6MSG, YJJ, KHBD and XXDF aren't meant to be balanced. In any case, absorbing large quantites of freezing chi is a weakness. The inability to properly merge the streams and avoid clashes is another (before the clashes kill you, you still get full power though). And the inability to drain YJJ practicioners is the final weakness (if you can call it that).



DFBB's KHBD isn't incomplete but distorted. The Huashan elders both memorized half of the book but didn't get it completely right (and thus this didn't join properly). Still, DFBB was so far above RWX + LHC + XWT that it's startling.

2. Not really. 1 Du Generation is really powerful. Especially with Jin Gang Fu Muo Chuan with makes them like one. A Du Generation monk would probably be the strongest fighers in HSDS after Z3F and ZWJ.

Again, it's meaningless to say that they're third strongest if the gap between second and third is so huge.

ZWJ can beat three of them by himself. That kind of gap is immense.

[Black Night Sea]

Ok, I'll make this simple. LHC even if he has 10000 variations on the sword break stance, he still has variations. And the basis is from the 360 variation. Variations of the sword technique exists. In contrast to ZWJ's taichi where there is 0 variations on the sword technique, anything ZWJ uses can be 100% new that Z3F might not have thought of, that is true formlessness.

That’s not what I meant. I just felt that 360 variations was just too small amount for an excellent sword technique in the form of DG9J. There’s nothing in my posts suggesting that LHC has attained the ideal level of formlessness which his martial uncle envisioned. But please take note that the sword-breaking stance is composed of sword techniques acquired or even knocked off (jeez, I never could imagine the ego of Dugu Qiubai’s size entered the pirating business ) from all the schools in China, I guess this is probably the main reason why YBQ felt that LHC wouldn’t grow stale even after 3 days/3 nights. But just because ZSF’s Taichi Jian is the definitive sword technique with regards to formlessness, doesn’t automatically make it the all-conquering style compared to others. Its formlessness does allow it to become (almost) unbreakable, but can it break others is what is relevant here. With DG9J, you’ve got a sword technique that tries to seek the opponent’s weak point on every occasion topped with that element of surprise and unpredictability that’s not much inferior to Taichi Jian’s. DG9J has countless sword stances to choose from, I doubt LHC is that bad and works off the moves in order right from Stance 1 down to Stance 19,735. That is not the logic of how DG9J is supposed to be executed.

Although young Zhang was said to have forgotten every single move ZSF showed him, the Taichi Jianfa he demonstrated still works on the basis of circular motion or arch-shaped/semi-circular strokes. Taichi Jianfa is basically one move comprised of (arguably) an infinite amount of variations. This is stated in the novel. Coming directly from the words of FQY: “Whenever there’s a move, there’s always a flaw.“ Then LHC’s knack of detecting weak points will be judged here.

If we use IcyFox martial art system of formlessness

If you have time, can you provide a direct link to where that piece of info lies. Thanks.

1 Du Generation is relative to one Xuan monk of DGSD. Yangdintian beated one 1 Du Generation. So Yangdintian is somewhere in Xuanci calibre, if not, slightly lower.

Pure assumption.

Even if there is a flaw, the real question is whether or not LHC can take advantage of it. LHC's DGJJ may have defeated Chong Xu's Taijijian, but LHC could not have defeated Chong Xu.

The book stated that since LHC figured that the most dangerous technique of Chongxu was also its weakest spot, then the rest of his stances will be readily undone by LHC.

And whilst observing the FZ vs. RWX fight, LHC admitted to himself that his swordsmanship was higher than Chongxu and not inferior to RWX.

the Shaolin Abbot's energy couldn't be sucked but still that part has not been clarified as to why....

Similar to BMSG, XXDF is not supposed to work against another person who’s inner strength was higher than your own. Fang Zheng’s inner power was too profound for RWX to suck in even a small portion. Prior to this, Jinyong made a statement that both FZ's and RWX's inner strength were equally matched. So there's another shortcoming to this technique.

Although, there may be parts in the novel I may have overlooked which could contradict this theory.

[pokit]

This is the reason why RWX couldn't absorb FZ's inner energy:

"Just then he was not able to absorb Fangzheng's inner energy, but it was because in a blink of an eye he was able to hide his internal energy without a trace and made his 'Art of Essence Absorbing' powerless"


And CX was clearly defeated by LHC, this is the text just after they fought:

"When those two people competed swords before, the winner and loser had not been decided. It was because the old man merely knew that he wasn't Linghu Chong's match so immediately gave up. "

There are more text in ch27 that said CX isn't LHC's match.

[Whsie]

Well, third best can mean many things. And In this case, 3rd best in XAJH means a lot more than 3rd best in HSDS. RWX might not be as strong as ZWJ, but he definitely is in the same league (like how QQR is in the same league as the Greats). Yang Dingtian simply isn't in the same league as ZWJ.


As for unbalanced XXDF. This isn't a game. Things are unbalanced; that's why there are best martial arts. Stuff like BMSG, 6MSG, YJJ, KHBD and XXDF aren't meant to be balanced. In any case, absorbing large quantites of freezing chi is a weakness. The inability to properly merge the streams and avoid clashes is another (before the clashes kill you, you still get full power though). And the inability to drain YJJ practicioners is the final weakness (if you can call it that).



DFBB's KHBD isn't incomplete but distorted. The Huashan elders both memorized half of the book but didn't get it completely right (and thus this didn't join properly). Still, DFBB was so far above RWX + LHC + XWT that it's startling.



Again, it's meaningless to say that they're third strongest if the gap between second and third is so huge.

ZWJ can beat three of them by himself. That kind of gap is immense.

I believe most people in this site believe that RWX is considerbly weaker than a Great. I think what people think is that since DFBB ~ Great, RWX must be weaker because XWT, RWX, LHC all 3 together would have lost if it weren't for DFBB's lover boy getting bullied by Ren Yin Yin.
Yangdintian is not in the same league as ZWJ and RWX isn't in the same league as ZWJ either. RWX wasn't just inferior to DFBB, but FAR inferior. So that suggests that RWX wasn't close to ZWJ either. If RWX plays defense and trys to stall out, he can do so, but certainly not forever.
And there are ways to avoid or counter XXDF.
No, Chongxu said to LHC that even the 2 Hua Shan guys didn't completely memorize it. And furthermore, some were memorized wrong. Either FZ or CX said that PXJF or KFBD were just a small portion of the original KHBD that was destroyed.
ZWJ can win, but not by true arts. In terms of actual arts, ZWJ may be slighty inferior. In internal, ZWJ slighty is better. The only way ZWJ can win that match is by stalling it out with better endurance (mainly from conservative arts/Taichi breathing that gives endurance). If he tried to beat the 3 Du within 30 minutes by true arts, ZWJ can't do it.

[Whsie]

That’s not what I meant. I just felt that 360 variations was just too small amount for an excellent sword technique in the form of DG9J. There’s nothing in my posts suggesting that LHC has attained the ideal level of formlessness which his martial uncle envisioned. But please take note that the sword-breaking stance is composed of sword techniques acquired or even knocked off (jeez, I never could imagine the ego of Dugu Qiubai’s size entered the pirating business ) from all the schools in China, I guess this is probably the main reason why YBQ felt that LHC wouldn’t grow stale even after 3 days/3 nights. But just because ZSF’s Taichi Jian is the definitive sword technique with regards to formlessness, doesn’t automatically make it the all-conquering style compared to others. Its formlessness does allow it to become (almost) unbreakable, but can it break others is what is relevant here. With DG9J, you’ve got a sword technique that tries to seek the opponent’s weak point on every occasion topped with that element of surprise and unpredictability that’s not much inferior to Taichi Jian’s. DG9J has countless sword stances to choose from, I doubt LHC is that bad and works off the moves in order right from Stance 1 down to Stance 19,735. That is not the logic of how DG9J is supposed to be executed.

Although young Zhang was said to have forgotten every single move ZSF showed him, the Taichi Jianfa he demonstrated still works on the basis of circular motion or arch-shaped/semi-circular strokes. Taichi Jianfa is basically one move comprised of (arguably) an infinite amount of variations. This is stated in the novel. Coming directly from the words of FQY: “Whenever there’s a move, there’s always a flaw.“ Then LHC’s knack of detecting weak points will be judged here.


If you have time, can you provide a direct link to where that piece of info lies. Thanks.


Pure assumption.


The book stated that since LHC figured that the most dangerous technique of Chongxu was also its weakest spot, then the rest of his stances will be readily undone by LHC.

And whilst observing the FZ vs. RWX fight, LHC admitted to himself that his swordsmanship was higher than Chongxu and not inferior to RWX.


Similar to BMSG, XXDF is not supposed to work against another person who’s inner strength was higher than your own. Fang Zheng’s inner power was too profound for RWX to suck in even a small portion.

Although, there may be parts in the novel I may have overlooked which could contradict this theory.

1. Sigh... Taichi sword vs DG9J takes forever
2. It's called something like Grand unified Theory. Icyfox apparently spend HOURS making a program that includes philosophy, style, internal, emotions that could calculuate who has a higher chance of winning a battle. Icyfox hasn't been around lately, but if he shows up, his post always has a link to it.
3. Not pure assumption. Even if Yangdintian is not in the Xuanci category, he is at least between Xuanci category and regular Xuan monk catergory. Du monks have shown combat level that are ~ Xuan monks (IMO, a bit higher). Yangdintian surpasses one of Du, so he is at least between regular Xuan monk and Xuanci.

[Black Night Sea]

Du monks have shown combat level that are ~ Xuan monks (IMO, a bit higher).

If Jinyong did not declare they were equals, and perhaps more importantly it's not agreed by everyone, then it would be deemed as assumption. If there is direct evidence that places them on equal terms - prove it.

Yangdintian surpasses one of Du, so he is at least between regular Xuan monk and Xuanci.

Yang Dingtian beat one of them yonks ago. By the time ZWJ met him, they were practicing The Demon Subduing Circle in seclusion purposefully to take revenge on Yang Dingtian. That's about 20 years more martial arts and internal strength improvement than the last time they met him IIRC.

[Dennis Chen]

That’s not what I meant. I just felt that 360 variations was just too small amount for an excellent sword technique in the form of DG9J. There’s nothing in my posts suggesting that LHC has attained the ideal level of formlessness which his martial uncle envisioned. But please take note that the sword-breaking stance is composed of sword techniques acquired or even knocked off (jeez, I never could imagine the ego of Dugu Qiubai’s size entered the pirating business ) from all the schools in China, I guess this is probably the main reason why YBQ felt that LHC wouldn’t grow stale even after 3 days/3 nights. But just because ZSF’s Taichi Jian is the definitive sword technique with regards to formlessness, doesn’t automatically make it the all-conquering style compared to others. Its formlessness does allow it to become (almost) unbreakable, but can it break others is what is relevant here. With DG9J, you’ve got a sword technique that tries to seek the opponent’s weak point on every occasion topped with that element of surprise and unpredictability that’s not much inferior to Taichi Jian’s. DG9J has countless sword stances to choose from, I doubt LHC is that bad and works off the moves in order right from Stance 1 down to Stance 19,735. That is not the logic of how DG9J is supposed to be executed.

Although young Zhang was said to have forgotten every single move ZSF showed him, the Taichi Jianfa he demonstrated still works on the basis of circular motion or arch-shaped/semi-circular strokes. Taichi Jianfa is basically one move comprised of (arguably) an infinite amount of variations. This is stated in the novel. Coming directly from the words of FQY: “Whenever there’s a move, there’s always a flaw.“ Then LHC’s knack of detecting weak points will be judged here.

DG9J looks for a single weakness. The Tao is everywhere. Good, bad, weak, strong. Just as nature is able to compensate for it's flaws, so should Taiji Jian.

You say that LHC has a knack for detecting weak points, yet even LHC thought he was on par with RWX. This means that LHC is not the guaranteed winner against a sword fight with RWX; he cannot see and exploit the flaw in RWX's sword skills. Does this mean that RWX can also defeat ZWJ in a sword fight?

What you are saying makes logical sense: LHC can defeat CX's Taiji Jian, therefore he can defeat the Taiji Jian of ZWJ. However, you forget one important thing that Jin Yong has mentioned many times in his books: The kung fu itself is dead, it's the person that makes the kung fu great.

[Black Night Sea]

The kung fu itself is dead, it's the person that makes the kung fu great.

It's one argument I agree with.

Now, having reread the Chongxu fight properly this time (it’s been a year since I last read XAJH fully) I’ll take back that comment of LHC beating ZWJ in swordplay immediately. Reason is that the book mentioned Chongxu Daozhang has learnt Taichi Jianfa up to the point where he hid the weak spot under the most dangerous area of the sword qi, which might not mean that Taichi Jianfa in itself has that flaw located in that area. It's the flaw within that person using the sword technique that made it happen. If Feng Qingyang was right, then ZWJ and ZSF are guaranteed to have a flaw(s) in their Taichi Jianfa, but will it be similar or different to where Chongxu hid his? If it’s different, then it will then have to come down to whether LHC can last that long under ZWJ before he finally finds out the weak point in his sword technique.

But as far as analysing Chongxu's swordplay is concerned, the descriptions were almost identical to that of ZWJ's. Yin 6th Heroe is the one that's different.

And due to LHC's experience with Taichi Jianfa, for some reason I can’t see ZWJ winning over him in swordplay.

[Whsie]

It's one argument I agree with.

Now, having reread the Chongxu fight properly this time (it’s been a year since I last read XAJH fully) I’ll take back that comment of LHC beating ZWJ in swordplay immediately. Reason is that the book mentioned Chongxu Daozhang has learnt Taichi Jianfa up to the point where he hid the weak spot under the most dangerous area of the sword qi, which might not mean that Taichi Jianfa in itself has that flaw located in that area. It's the flaw within that person using the sword technique that made it happen. If Feng Qingyang was right, then ZWJ and ZSF are guaranteed to have a flaw(s) in their Taichi Jianfa, but will it be similar or different to where Chongxu hid his? If it’s different, then it will then have to come down to whether LHC can last that long under ZWJ before he finally finds out the weak point in his sword technique.

But as far as analysing Chongxu's swordplay is concerned, the descriptions were almost identical to that of ZWJ's. Yin 6th Heroe is the one that's different.

And due to LHC's experience with Taichi Jianfa, for some reason I can’t see ZWJ winning over him in swordplay.

Even if Taichi sword trully is = to DG9J, ZWJ obviously would still win due to superior to internal. Heck, he even used a wood sword against the best sword of HSDS era-Heaven Sword. Well, 2 reasons why wood sword worked against Heaven Sword, 1. better internal. 2. sword style was better. The only thing Ah Da has was the best sword in the world.

[Black Night Sea]

Even if Taichi sword trully is = to DG9J, ZWJ obviously would still win due to superior to internal.

但不論敵手的內力如何深厚，到了“獨孤九劍”精微的劍法之下，盡數落空。
But no matter how profound his opponent's inner strength was, under the deeply thought out sword technique that's of DG9J, it will come to nothing.

[Ken Cheng]

但不論敵手的內力如何深厚，到了“獨孤九劍”精微的劍法之下，盡數落空。
But no matter how profound his opponent's inner strength was, under the deeply thought out sword technique that's of DG9J, it will come to nothing.

I don't believe that. If that were true, the Dook Goo 9 Swords would be invincible, and we know that it wasn't. It all comes down to the relative abilities of the combatants rather than their choice of skills.

[Black Night Sea]

I don't believe that. If that were true, the Dook Goo 9 Swords would be invincible, and we know that it wasn't. It all comes down to the relative abilities of the combatants rather than their choice of skills.

What made you believe it wasn't invincible?

But then again it's likely to be another one of those gibberish lines that Jinyong often comes up like: "if his opponents were strong, he'll grow in strength too."

[Ken Cheng]

What made you believe it wasn't invincible?

Fung Ching Yeung and Ling Wu Chung were expert Dook Goo 9 Swords practitioners; neither was invincible.

Dook Goo Kau Bai, if the legends are credible, would have been better than they, but it remains to be seen if his vaunted "chi-breaking stance" would work against the likes of a Janitor Monk or a Hui Juk.