Jiu Yin Zhen Jing vs Qian Kun Da Nuo Yi

[Stance]

A QKDNY user can see the energy fields and power generation of other fighters and identify/pinpoint the energy flows in their movements. It allows the user to see and create flaws in other skills.

9YZJ was created by Wong Seung to counter the Ming Cult skills and he would have seen QKDNY in action in some form or another.

How could 9YZJ possible counter a skill that is supposed to be able to see/pinpoint/create flaws in another skill and how would QKDNY fair against 9YZJ?

[Ken Cheng]

Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee becomes notoriously ineffective against opponents who have much higher inner power, and one of the features of 9 Yum Jen Ging is that the user can build fairly large quantities of inner power in a relatively short period of time.

[Stance]

Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee becomes notoriously ineffective against opponents who have much higher inner power, and one of the features of 9 Yum Jen Ging is that the user can build fairly large quantities of inner power in a relatively short period of time.

Interesting, do you have more details on this flaw. Why does QKDNY fail against stronger opponents? Is it unable to see the energies or flaws?

[Ken Cheng]

Interesting, do you have more details on this flaw. Why does QKDNY fail against stronger opponents? Is it unable to see the energies or flaws?

Damo knows why...but that's how the story is told.

[Doc Kwok]

Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee becomes notoriously ineffective against opponents who have much higher inner power, and one of the features of 9 Yum Jen Ging is that the user can build fairly large quantities of inner power in a relatively short period of time.

In ZWJ's case, that is impossible to prove as with the possible exception of Zhang Sanfeng, no-one has stronger inner power than him.

The general argument for this is that ZWJ had to use the highest 7th level to make the two Yuan Ming elders fight each other (and it was explicitly said that 5th or 6th level would not be enough). The two elders combined were at least a level or two below him, so presumably the 7th level would not be enough to handle someone on-par with himself, let alone stronger.

This tends to forget that QKDNY is not just about making your enemies fight each other/themselves (which is kind of gimmicky, and is borderline toying with your opponents). It enables you to make the most of your inner power reserves, spot/create weaknesses, store/release energy etc. Without the distraction of ZZR, he could easily just clobber the two elders with 9 Yang+QKDNY in a straightforward manner without bothering to use the advanced techniques to turn them against themselves.

[tape]

Yeah, I'm sure there are other applications that should be possible that ZWJ simply didn't use because he was inexperienced or had no need to.

I imagine you can use it to slightly alter attacks which can be a pretty big advantage even if you're not making them hit themselves/each other. Also, full powered palm attacks are rarely the majority of a fight, so in a normal fight that would lost a few hundred stances there are bound to be moves that are only using 30-40% of your inner strength in a strike and that would be a good time to use QKDNY to surprise and capitalize.

[Doc Kwok]

9YZJ was created by Wong Seung to counter the Ming Cult skills and he would have seen QKDNY in action in some form or another.

I really hate the simplification that the Ming cult killed Huang Shang's family - it leads one to completely wrong conclusions about 9 Yin. The culprits were from the Chinese wulin, who wanted to avenge family/sect members who had joined the Ming cult, so Huang Shang's revenge would be directed towards certain members of the Chinese wulin. The text is fairly explicit about this:

苦思四十餘年，終於想明了能破解各家各派招數的武學

It was designed to counter the techniques of 'all families all sects' - i.e. the Chinese wulin, not the Ming cult specifically.

[Ken Cheng]

I really hate the simplification that the Ming cult killed Huang Shang's family - it leads one to completely wrong conclusions about 9 Yin. The culprits were from the Chinese wulin, who wanted to avenge family/sect members who had joined the Ming cult, so Huang Shang's revenge would be directed towards certain members of the Chinese wulin. The text is fairly explicit about this:

苦思四十餘年，終於想明了能破解各家各派招數的武學

It was designed to counter the techniques of 'all families all sects' - i.e. the Chinese wulin, not the Ming cult specifically.

I blame Jin Yong for making this plot point unnecessarily convoluted.

[Stance]

In ZWJ's case, that is impossible to prove as with the possible exception of Zhang Sanfeng, no-one has stronger inner power than him.

The general argument for this is that ZWJ had to use the highest 7th level to make the two Yuan Ming elders fight each other (and it was explicitly said that 5th or 6th level would not be enough). The two elders combined were at least a level or two below him, so presumably the 7th level would not be enough to handle someone on-par with himself, let alone stronger.

This tends to forget that QKDNY is not just about making your enemies fight each other/themselves (which is kind of gimmicky, and is borderline toying with your opponents). It enables you to make the most of your inner power reserves, spot/create weaknesses, store/release energy etc. Without the distraction of ZZR, he could easily just clobber the two elders with 9 Yang+QKDNY in a straightforward manner without bothering to use the advanced techniques to turn them against themselves.

Was it ever stated what each of the levels did?

Did it state that level 5 /6 wasn't enough to beat the Yuan Ming elders or level 7 is required to make your enemies fight each other?

[a_tumiwa]

how long is it needed to learn jiu yin and qkdny completely?
i think qkdny need about 20 years or something? (put aside zwj's case)

[Western Eccentric]

how long is it needed to learn jiu yin and qkdny completely?
i think qkdny need about 20 years or something? (put aside zwj's case)

..
So he followed it, and quickly finished the first level without any trouble. Then he saw the sheepskin said, “This first level requires at least seven years for experts, lesser people require fourteen years.” Zhang WuJi felt strange, wondering how this can be so.

He followed by reading the second level, and felt his inner chi flow easily through his body. Then he felt as if icy particles shot out of his ten fingers, finishing the level. Yet on the parchment, it said, “Experts require seven years, lesser people require fourteen years. If you can’t finish in twenty one years, you should give up, or risk fire deviation.” Zhang WuJi, surprised and happy, began to learn level three. This time the words have begun to fade. Just as he was about to cut his finger, Xiao Zhao dropped her blood onto the sheepskin first. Zhang WuJi followed the directions and quickly finished level three and four. When Xiao Zhao saw that half of his face is bright red, while the other half is green, she felt scared. Yet she saw that he still has much energy, as if nothing’s going on. Then when he was learning the fifth level, his faces sometimes turn red and sometimes green. When it turns green, his face becomes cold as ice. When it becomes red, sweat poured down his face.