Did Yeung Hong have the potential to become a Greats-level martial artist?

[Dennis Chen]

Yang Kang had the ability but not the will.

[Candide]

Huang Rong is not a jack of all trades. She's more like a master of all trades, but not good enough to be a Great of all trades, except cooking , scheming and being lovely.

As for Yang Kang, do you think HR or Yang Guo his son would've done better with those 10 years trained by QCJ and MCF? I bet they would.

Yang Kang had the ability but not the will.

The will is a part of the "ability". You can't separate them. Having one without the other gets you nowhere.

[xiaolong]

However, ROCH novel says that Yang Guo inherited his father's "handsome face and talent for martial arts".

Yang Kang is not talented, patient and determined enough to be a Great in martial arts or in pretty much anything. He's the jack of all trades, master of none type. He thinks he's top shit and he can be reached greatness tomorrow without having to do much.

[Ren Ying Ying]

The will is a part of the "ability". You can't separate them. Having one without the other gets you nowhere.

not necesarily. the "will" can be implemented by an external force (ie, if someone whipped him into shape).

[Jeffrey Ong]

Interesting question.
This probably isn't an answer per se but I think it depends on what the story needs.
All great fighters have 1 or both of 2 things, natural aptitude or access to superior martial arts.
YBQ was a 2nd/3rd class fighter despite training for many years on the Zixia divine Skill.
Once he had access to the Bixie Jianfa, he quickly elevated himself to becoming a 1st class fighter.
Ouyang Ke on the other hand had the training of this Uncle Ouyang Feng. While being reasonably skilled, he did not master the Toad Stance in the same speed and extent as GJ with the XL18Z.

The difference is that in 1 case the villain had to have high martial arts to succeed, in another the villain did not.

Yang Kang was always a strategist/Schemer, hence he did not the superior martial arts. It would make the story pretty hard to write too if he could match GJ in fights. However given the various examples of even inapt fighters becoming proficient once they had access to martial arts, like DY and Lin Pingzhi, I think Yk had a reasonable chance of becoming pretty close to Greats-Level if he had 10 years and a Greats-level teacher.

[Ken Cheng]

How many fights did Yeung Hong get into during LOCH, and of these, how many did he win?

[tape]

Interesting question.
This probably isn't an answer per se but I think it depends on what the story needs.
All great fighters have 1 or both of 2 things, natural aptitude or access to superior martial arts.
YBQ was a 2nd/3rd class fighter despite training for many years on the Zixia divine Skill.
Once he had access to the Bixie Jianfa, he quickly elevated himself to becoming a 1st class fighter.
Ouyang Ke on the other hand had the training of this Uncle Ouyang Feng. While being reasonably skilled, he did not master the Toad Stance in the same speed and extent as GJ with the XL18Z.

The difference is that in 1 case the villain had to have high martial arts to succeed, in another the villain did not.

Yang Kang was always a strategist/Schemer, hence he did not the superior martial arts. It would make the story pretty hard to write too if he could match GJ in fights. However given the various examples of even inapt fighters becoming proficient once they had access to martial arts, like DY and Lin Pingzhi, I think Yk had a reasonable chance of becoming pretty close to Greats-Level if he had 10 years and a Greats-level teacher.

It's exactly that it is what the story needs. Guo Jing by all accounts should not have progressed as fast as he did. It was the narrator's voice that Guo Jing did not have a talent for martial arts, and learned incredibly slow. Yet whenever he actually had to learn elite martial arts, that logically should be extremely hard to learn, he learned and progressed at a rate far higher than people who are supposedly martial art talents.

JY uses the excuse that he tries really hard, has a simple mind, and therefore is able to do it. But that probably encompasses a huge percentage of unnamed people in wulin, and they have nowhere near the success of Guo Jing. Not to mention we then see people with the exact opposite traits of Guo Jing become martial arts Greats too. It just contradicts itself and makes you question what exactly makes one a martial art talent?

[Jeffrey Ong]

Hi tape, that's a tough one.

I guess from a more simplistic standpoint I guess GJ is a really lucky guy, and had access to the best skills in LOCH, whihc no one else had. Of all the greats, he met arguably the most suitable to impart him greats level skills in H7G, as compared to if he had met HYS or OYF. He got the lucky boost with the snake blood. Got stuck in the cave with martial arts obsessed ZBT. Had HR to urge him and give advice. He had pointers and hints on how to cultivate the 9-Yin more fruitfully through incidents and advice from Yideng. On the other hand I cant really imagine Mu Nianci giving Yang Kang martial arts advice or encouragement. Also, stupidity might mean that while he might take longer to understand the verse behind the arts, he might actually be more single-minded in being able to get it right. On the other hand someone smarter could be able to memorise the verses and understand the martial arts, but not be able to express it fully.

From a more plot device look the stupidness of GJ was there to make his loyalty, heroism and perserverance more apparent. But there was also a need for him to gain the powerful martial arts since he's not going to outhink anyone, and hence he could magically memorise the 9-Yin manual, when you would think he would probably struggle with something like that.

Although back to your question on what makes a martial arts talent, the examples in JY's books are slightly hard to interpret. For example everyone who had access to the XL18Z, XF, H7G, GJ all became top fighters. Similarly people who had access to any of the Dugu skill-set, YG, LHC and FQY also became top level fighters. It is hard to argue for anyone who was a top martial artist who did not have access to top level skills. This makes me wonder if one would be able to reach a high level as long as you had the right skill to learn from.

Not sure if I even come close to answering the question, but hope to hear your view on this!

[Ken Cheng]

He got the lucky boost with the snake blood!

I've already said this until I was blue in the face (like those aliens in AVATAR), so what's one more time, eh?

The snake blood had *no* significant impact on Gwok Jing's inner power or martial arts (at least not after LOCH Ed. 1). It didn't even grant him complete immunity to poisons. All it gave him was extraordinary *resistance* (but not immunity) to most poisons.

Let's permanently file this one under, "Common Wuxia Misconceptions."

[tape]

I think I made a thread a long time ago asking if anybody in Guo Jing's shoes would have been able to accomplish what he accomplished. He had every single elite art he needed at exactly the right times, excellent teachers, and situations where he had to fight and succeed to keep his life over and over again which dramatically improves his martial arts. So maybe he really isn't a martial arts talent, and is just really lucky.

I think it makes more sense to attribute his success in martial arts due to circumstances rather than anything to do with his character traits, even though as readers I think we'd like to, and JY as a narrator likes to randomly give him kudos which somewhat contradicts earlier statements of him being a slow and terrible learner.

I think someone like Yelu Qi is pretty similar to Guo Jing in terms of character and access to advanced martial arts, except he didn't face the dangers that Guo Jing did. He didn't reach anywhere near the heights Guo Jing did, so I'd have to guess it was the extreme situations that Guo Jing was placed into than any talent or character trait Guo Jing had that allowed him to reach such heights in martial arts.

[Doc Kwok]

Ouyang Ke on the other hand had the training of this Uncle Ouyang Feng. While being reasonably skilled, he did not master the Toad Stance in the same speed and extent as GJ with the XL18Z.

It is stated in ROCH that Ouyang Ke was never taught the Toad skill at all because of the extreme difficulty of its internal cultivation method, with the slightest mistake causing severe injury or death by vomiting blood.

I suppose it is a nod to Yang Guo's talent (or sheer luck) that he survived at all, never mind being able to unleash it every now and again.

[bliss]

I think I made a thread a long time ago asking if anybody in Guo Jing's shoes would have been able to accomplish what he accomplished. He had every single elite art he needed at exactly the right times, excellent teachers, and situations where he had to fight and succeed to keep his life over and over again which dramatically improves his martial arts. So maybe he really isn't a martial arts talent, and is just really lucky.

I think it makes more sense to attribute his success in martial arts due to circumstances rather than anything to do with his character traits, even though as readers I think we'd like to, and JY as a narrator likes to randomly give him kudos which somewhat contradicts earlier statements of him being a slow and terrible learner.

I think someone like Yelu Qi is pretty similar to Guo Jing in terms of character and access to advanced martial arts, except he didn't face the dangers that Guo Jing did. He didn't reach anywhere near the heights Guo Jing did, so I'd have to guess it was the extreme situations that Guo Jing was placed into than any talent or character trait Guo Jing had that allowed him to reach such heights in martial arts.

You could also argue that it was his talent and knack for martial arts that allowed him to survive all those near-death battles (disregarding the fact they are main hero plot devices).

[Candide]

Although back to your question on what makes a martial arts talent, the examples in JY's books are slightly hard to interpret. For example everyone who had access to the XL18Z, XF, H7G, GJ all became top fighters.

Wang Jiantong, XF's predecessor at the Beggar Clan, wasn't really a top fighter. He (and 30 of his mates) got spanked easily by a young XYS without access to top Shaolin arts.

Shi Huolong, the Beggar Clan leader in HSDS, could not learn the full 18 stances of XL18Z and almost permanently crippled his own arms as a result. He was killed by Cheng Kun.

In fact, none of the clan leaders after ROCH could manage to learn the full 18.

This makes me wonder if one would be able to reach a high level as long as you had the right skill to learn from.

Top skills can't be learned by just anyone. TSTL's servants (and the vast majority of wulin) could not even read the top level arts of Xiao Yao School without suffering fire deviation.

Dugu sword arts can only be used by men with the right personality. FQY said that someone with a permanent pole up his arse like YBQ would not be able to understand DG9J. FQY knew that LHC would be able to learn it after he tested his personality & character - and in wulin at the time, LHC was one of a kind.

None of the 34 Ming Cult leaders could master QKDNY beyond level 4 out of 7, other than the creator (level 6), Zhang Wuji (level 7) and Leader Shi (the 27th?) who could reach level 5 but fire-deviated and died on the same day. Those cult leaders were all the very best martial artists in wulin in their respective times.

How many Duans of Dali could learn the full 6MSJ?

No Shaolin monk (except Damo and Sweeper) could learn more than 12 out of 72 Shaolin divine arts.

Heh, I could go on all day!

[Jeffrey Ong]

Candide great points. I must have been pretty myopic.
Although i tink there's a slight misinterpretation.
The main point is that no one who had achieved great martial arts had been able to do so without being exposed to the best martial arts skills available.
But again excellent post!
What do you think differentiates all who failed from those who succeeded?
Of course lets put aside the need to develop plot, since obviously if for example Shi huolong had mastered the XL18Z then he could very well have featured much more prominently or had his own story.

But from a purely analytical standpoint, why do you think someone like GJ can master the XL18Z as compared to someone else like Shi or other beggar sect clans?

Also another question with regards the the XL18Z. XF was probably the only one in the beggar clan that had good mastery of the XL18Z. None of the other elders seem to have good practice of it. However we know that in the succeeding timeline of LOCH, H7G had very good mastery of the XL18Z. what differentiated H7G from the rest? And how was it passed down successfully? Was it through Xu Zhu who had collaborated with XF on the art?

[ChronoReverse]

Some people have better innate talent for certain things. That's all there really is to it. It's as if people seem to dislike admitting that GJ could possibly be a talent with martial arts if he's allowed to take the time to digest them


Simply put, to achieve something as outstanding as Great class requires several factors to be present at once:
You must have the innate talent in the first place
You must have the fortune of encountering a teacher and/or martial art that can take you to the Great class
You must have the diligence to train to that level

For some people, they have enough side-talent to create Great-class martial arts but even then, they have to have some background to draw from.
HS used the comprehensive taoist writings he collected
HYS obviously was highly trained in 5 element theory and mathematics
YG had the benefit of multiple Greats teaching him
Z3F started with basic Shaolin stances, YG's three stances and 9 Yang

You could say they were fortunate, but that alone is still not enough to achieve Great class. Perhaps we're inundated with all the Greats that show up, but we have to remember how extreme these people are. Someone who can beat practically anyone within wulin in a duel like YLQ (ROCH) is still child's play to any Great.

[tape]

I have no gripe against Guo Jing, but the thing is we have JY narration voice saying he is slow and is not a good talent for martial arts etc BUT xxxx occured so he is able to learn it. I think Guo Jing has the extreme diligence and work ethic in order to make that happen, but I think that's as far as it goes. That is a positive trait of course and not something everyone has, but it's also a relatively small factor in whether you achieve Great status or not compared to the rest of the requirements.

Someone with his work ethics and diligence without all his fortunate encounters has 0% of becoming a Great. Someone with his encounters but not his work ethic has a non zero chance. I would say his fortuitous encounters accounted more for his success than any innate character traits.

The true martial arts talents like Xiao Feng are able to reach Greats status with much less luck. It is still an accomplishment for Guo Jing, but I don't think it's enough for him to be labeled a martial arts talent even though he reached Greats status. Just because he has those traits does not mean those traits are what allowed him to be Greats status due to all the other external factors.

[ChronoReverse]

Someone with his encounters but not his work ethic has a non zero chance

This is the key point I disagree with. I do not believe there is anyone who achieved Greats class who did not work hard in some way.

XF definitely trained hard being Shaolin disciple and knowing his character.

MYB spent years training up the stolen Shaolin martial arts, clearly he would have worked hard on his own family martial arts as well.

XYS likewise spent years in Shaolin.

HYS worked hard to both become learned as well as improving his martial arts (he thought in his heart how he had trained hard in one part of LOCH).

OYF worked very hard to become strong as well as recover his martial arts.

ZBT devotes a huge portion of his life to working on martial arts. He achieved Great class during his time on HYS's island where he focused on it.

H7G was lazy in general but still worked hard to master his best martial arts. ROCH says he improved his ability greatly between then and LOCH for example.

QQR had the opportunity to learn the Iron Palms and spent years training it, was mentioned by the narrator to be a great talent and still was marginally below Great class.

YG spent years continuing to train his HIS to properly reach Great class (so that he was clearly no longer inferior in any way) as well as coming up with his Sad Palms.

Even the villain GWM, despite being an extraordinary talent according the narrator, still spent years to master his Elephant and Dragon kungfu.

Z3F spent his life on martial arts and even devoted long periods of time simply for inventing new martial arts.

His master also reached Great class internal energy by diligently training 9 Yang for years.

ZWJ spent several years solely for continuous 9 Yang training. This alone was still not enough to propel him to Great class internal energy much less Great class in general.

RWX was consumed by simply perfecting XXDF alone. There's no question how much he devotes to training.

FZ has been cultivating YJJ for years as the head of Shaolin. He was also stated to have mastered several of the elite Shaolin skills.



With the exception of cases where internal energy was literally forced into someone, there's simply no way to reach Great class within a lifetime without all three of hard work, innate talent and a high-level martial art.

You can reach a level where you'd be stronger than almost everyone, but Great class is a level where you're dominate than the strongest. You could say they are unreasonably powerful.

The true martial arts talents like Xiao Feng are able to reach Greats status with much less luck

So he wasn't lucky to have been taught XL18P along with orthodox Shaolin internal energy? Obviously he worked extraordinarily hard to achieve a supreme level by age 30 but he was also fortunate to encounter high level martial arts as well.

With the talent part of three you get someone like YLQ who is certainly very good, but isn't even mentioned in the same breath as Guo Xiang (who only may have achieved that level from what we're told in HSDS) despite managing to master XL18P and receiving tutelage from ZBT and GJ.

[Ren Ying Ying]

This is the key point I disagree with. I do not believe there is anyone who achieved Greats class who did not work hard in some way.

So he wasn't lucky to have been taught XL18P along with orthodox Shaolin internal energy? Obviously he worked extraordinarily hard to achieve a supreme level by age 30 but he was also fortunate to encounter high level martial arts as well.

Certainly, all the greats have put in hard work...but hard work itself also has different levels and measurements (just like talent). The way JY describes the "hard work" of GJ is not in the same breath. Hard work for most people means giving 100% effort. For Guo Jing, it's 120% effort and then some. If hard work for most people meant putting in 12 hours of work per day, it would be 20 hours of work for GJ.

With the talent part of three you get someone like YLQ who is certainly very good, but isn't even mentioned in the same breath as Gua Xiang (who may have achieved that level from what we're told in HSDS) despite managing to master XL18P and receiving tutelage from ZBT and GJ.

Guo Xiang is a rare talent, no doubt (you can't create your sect w/o being one). YLQ is decently talented but I don't think it's on the same level of the likes of Guo Xiang or Zhang Sanfeng (the same way hard work for GJ is just at another level).

Plus, by the time we saw YLQ at the end of ROCH, there's no suggestion that he has learned any parts of 9 yin...which is the major booster for GJ. Guo Xiang and ZSF had pieces of 9 yang to work with.

[ChronoReverse]

Guo Xiang is a rare talent, no doubt (you can't create your sect w/o being one). YLQ is decently talented but I don't think it's on the same level of the likes of Guo Xiang or Zhang Sanfeng (the same way hard work for GJ is just at another level).

That's what I just said...

The point is that he works hard and had the martial arts to go with it. He definitely had orthodox QZ internal energy training (and probably with some 9 Yin mixed in because of ZBT) which would push him to Great class before he got too old if he trained it diligently AND had the talent. It won't be as fast as proper 9 Yin (so he won't hit it by age 30) but it does accelerate as you go along.

But he still isn't in the same class as GX.

Certainly, all the greats have put in hard work...but hard work itself also has different levels and measurements (just like talent). The way JY describes the "hard work" of GJ is not in the same breath. Hard work for most people means giving 100% effort. For Guo Jing, it's 120% effort and then some. If hard work for most people meant putting in 12 hours of work per day, it would be 20 hours of work for GJ.

I've just listed how so many of the Greats have put in more than 100%.

I'll repeat a couple:
ZWJ spent 5 years in continuous 9 Yang training. Five non-stop years where he did nothing but eat, sleep and train. There's no doubt he was talented and he had the full 9 Yang.

HYS thought he had put in such a tremendous effort between the Huashan Meet and LOCH that he'd be the strongest under heaven. H7G and OYF both shocked him with their progress and they turned out to be equal yet again.


It's truly belittling to them saying their efforts were a great chunk below that which GJ also put in. GJ definitely had fortune and worked extraordinarily hard. That would not have put him into the Great class without talent as well.

You have to remember, a great deal of wulin also dedicated their lives to training martial arts but still can't come close to the level of the Greats. Some of them even have access to martial arts that can in fact take them to Great heights (most notable are QZ, Shaolin and Wudang) if they also had the talent to push the envelope. But they were missing that third piece and ultimately never reach it within their lifetimes.

[ChronoReverse]

Just to be clear, this is not to say GJ had more talent than, say, HYS or ZWJ. The proportions are also obviously different for each person.

HOWEVER, all three components of talent, hard work and martial arts must be much higher than average.

The level of a Great is simply so high that it demands such.