Did Yeung Hong have the potential to become a Greats-level martial artist?

[chibidaisuke]

I disagree that not everyone wouldn't reach Greats status given GJ's situation. I think that most major characters would have reached a comparable level in his shoes.

GJ was different in most of these cases because he had complete access and guidance to them, along with having a LOT of them. Hong Qigong never taught anyone for more than like 2-3 days....and he spent a full month teaching Guo Jing which Wang Chuyi mentioned was equal to years of training. Even his 2 years of Quanzhen training was supervised by Ma Yu for 2 years straight every night. I doubt any disciple in Quanzhen got that type of treatment.

L/R is one thing where he has genuine talent for in learning, I don't dispute that.

YG learned finger snap in one night along with swordplay and his dog beating stick was superficial without the formula. With it, he was able to do some pretty impressive stuff instantly without practice.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve credit for hard work, but he also doesn't deserve credit for reaching Greats status through sheer determination and hard work either. He had, by FAR, the greatest amount of resources to work with as well as the most amount of time spent with and watching Greats fight.

In that case,mmm then maybe we should change from 'one does not need to be gifted to succeed' to 'one without talent needs huge luck to succeed' as one of the themes of LOCH. I think that may be a bit more accurate haha.

[tape]

Hah yeah thematically it would be nice if it could be hard work can get you places, but it just doesn't work too well in wuxia stories where EVERYONE is spending like 16 hours a day training for 20 years. It's only us lazy modern folk that needs that motivation for hard work. Those olden time people naturally work hard because they die if they dont

[Dragon Heiress]

^And because they didn't have the best forms of entertainment, eg. they didn't have wuxia fansites.

[Snafu3721]

I disagree that not everyone wouldn't reach Greats status given GJ's situation. I think that most major characters would have reached a comparable level in his shoes.

GJ was different in most of these cases because he had complete access and guidance to them, along with having a LOT of them. Hong Qigong never taught anyone for more than like 2-3 days....and he spent a full month teaching Guo Jing which Wang Chuyi mentioned was equal to years of training. Even his 2 years of Quanzhen training was supervised by Ma Yu for 2 years straight every night. I doubt any disciple in Quanzhen got that type of treatment.

L/R is one thing where he has genuine talent for in learning, I don't dispute that.

YG learned finger snap in one night along with swordplay and his dog beating stick was superficial without the formula. With it, he was able to do some pretty impressive stuff instantly without practice.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve credit for hard work, but he also doesn't deserve credit for reaching Greats status through sheer determination and hard work either. He had, by FAR, the greatest amount of resources to work with as well as the most amount of time spent with and watching Greats fight.

And I disagree with the statement that everyone given GJ's background would become a Great =P.

Let's compare YG and GJ-- (no it's not a who will win situation)

We'll use GJ prior to 9-Yin and YG prior to Dugu and ridiculous snake gall bladders. Since those are definitely the turning points in their martial arts career.

GJ had 2 years of Internal training from Ma Yu as you mentioned. But what he really did was climb a cliff and sleep. Ma Yu didn't really "guide" him to anything. It was GJ's "simplicity" that allowed him to reap benefits that no other QZ taoist did. It's not because Ma Yu favored GJ or taught him anything special. It's because GJ was perfect to learn QZ taoist techniques that requires a steady mind and simple heart. Most of the times when the mind is not steady, people tend to fire deviate. GJ was one of the few people who can literally blank all his thoughts.

Now, YG... He slept on super Jade ice bed for years. He also learned QZ internal techniques along with AT internal. YG definitely had no distractions from the outside world and so all his living hours were devoted to training. Yet... I don't quite see YG's internal as miles ahead of young GJ's.

Next, we have techniques. GJ learned XL18P from H7G. And I can sort of accept the fact that spending more than 2-3 days with H7G is quite special. But in truth, H7G never really gave GJ any particular pointers in martial arts (outside of dragon palms) other than telling GJ he's as dumb as a rock. Yet, with his uncompleted 15 plams... GJ was in the same leagues as the 2nd tier Martial Artist such as QZ 7 and the Jin flunkies.

YG also learned some Great lvl techniques such as Jade Maiden, finger snap, parts of 9-yin, dog beating stick (and he did get the internal portion prior to learning Dugu). Yet, prior to Dugu, YG could never reach a breakthrough and reach 2nd tier. It's not that YG was lacking in internal as evident by HYS's claim that YG's roar was so impressive. And why would it take YG so long to learn finger snap if his internal was so good and his IQ is so high?!

Finally we compare experience. So GJ witnessed lots of Greats while he was young, but so did YG!! YG witnessed the epitomy of duels between H7G and West Poison! YG was instructed personally by HYS and learned the finger snap. YG fought GWM on several occasions prior Dugu. Yet, YG's rate of growth was not particularly amazing. It never seemed like he would catch up to the likes of LMC or Mongol flunkies if he didn't never found Dugu's tomb.

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On a side note, many people such as the QZ 7 witnessed greats lvl characters fight all the time. It didn't necessarily benefit their martial arts. So I never gave too much credit for the statement "GJ had lots of contact with Greats". The wudang 7 also saw Z3F everyday but didn't necessarily become super powerful.

[tape]

On a side note, many people such as the QZ 7 witnessed greats lvl characters fight all the time. It didn't necessarily benefit their martial arts. So I never gave too much credit for the statement "GJ had lots of contact with Greats". The wudang 7 also saw Z3F everyday but didn't necessarily become super powerful.

These disciples rarely saw their masters in action, and certainly not against other Great level opponents.

[Snafu3721]

These disciples rarely saw their masters in action, and certainly not against other Great level opponents.

GJ really didn't witness any Greats in action until after he received the 9-Yin. And in my previous post, I tried to point out GJ's merits pre 9-yin exposure.

Also, GJ basically saw what YG saw... OYF vs. H7G (not to mention the LOCH fight wasn't as high leveled as the ROCH fight). But YG didn't walk away from that experience and achieve much better martial arts. So can we really say that exposure to seeing 2 Greats in action necessarily improves your Martial Arts prowess?? Or how about the Wuliang sword sect at the beginning of DGSD? The were watching the reflecions of WYZ and LCS for months, yet didn't really benefit. So I really don't agree with the idea that a contributing factor to GJ reaching Greats level was because he had encounters with the Great. If not for his innate "talent", then he would have gained nothing from the whole experience.

As for the QZ 7, IIRC, they were at the temple when OYF attacked. Watching OYF fight ZBT is definitely "Greats" level. And the way QCJ talked about WCY in ROCH... it seems that the QZ 7 actually did have quite some exposure to witnessing their sifu's awesomeness.

[tape]

Guo Jing benefited a lot from watching Greats fight after he received 9 Yin because he was given the theory, and then he got to see it in action. Yang Guo was too low level at the time of the H7G vs OYF fight to glean as much as Guo Jing did. Even when watching them play instruments Guo Jing was able to see their flaws and attacks, and that was entirely due to having 9 Yin. We know he is not bright enough to do that on his own.

Ma Yu didn't guide Guo Jing in breathing? I highly doubt that. They didn't go into detail about what exactly was happening, but if all he had to do was impart the technique to Guo Jing and tell him to climb and sleep everyday, why would he need to stay in Mongolia for 2 years and supervise Guo Jing every night? He probably gave him a lot of guidance on how exactly to breathe etc.

With regards to YG, I would say it's because XLN was the one teaching him and not a master like Ma Yu. Great teachers are extremely important, and she was too young and inexperienced to teach him very well. Depending on the activity, one can learn more in a week than one might in a year based on the quality of the teacher. And again, we don't really know what happened outside the first day or two about what kind of instruction Hong Qigong gave to Guo Jing. It could be detailed and complex, or it could be simple and to the point, but it definitely was not just him telling Guo Jing he was dumb as a rock.

In the end, I would have to say Yang Guo didn't progress because he lacked focus and had so many arts to choose from that he could excel at. He is good at everything and spread himself too thin, so he didn't progress as well as Guo Jing did for a while.

Just as in the real world, it is not always the most talented and intelligent that become the most powerful/rich/successful, it is those that have hard work and good fortune. Yang Guo has more talent and tried all sorts of things and came up short at first, while Guo Jing always knew what he needed to do and slowly but surely developed his empire with the help of some good fortune. I don't really classify that as martial arts talent, just hard work mixed with some good luck.

[Mido-Ban]

tape i believe you are correct. same went with huang rong, having all these martial arts at her disposal but she weren't really able to master all or most of them just remember them etc.

yang guo and huang rong are the same, basically it was like you said its focus, yang guo focus on knowing the answering of his fathers killers and death, revenge, and his sifu. looking for his sifu etc back n forth, so he wasn't able to concentrate after leaving the ancient tomb. plus all the battles yang guo fought sorta happened right next to the other without like 3 or so month that past etc.

didnt golden wheel monk said same with yang guo when he went to dark side? didn't he said something along the lines that yang guo was powerful n had all these martial arts at his disposal but given the time he didn't master any of them, so gwm told him to take the good part out of each martial arts and combine it to make his own or something? i think after that then he went into that valley, at that point i think he was stronger then gwm, hence gwm didn't do anything to him or even wanted to help him when he was losing to that guy at the valley after being poison etc.

guo jing on the other hand, wanted revenge, but he told ma yu that he really didn't want to revenge because it'll cause an endless cycle hence ma yu said he was exactly like wang chong yang way of thinking. after meeting huang rong, she pushed him to learn martial arts, then he drank the blood of the 1000 year snake said to give him alot of chi, which was why after meeting hong chi gong, h7g said he was able to learn the dragon palm due to he had alot of chi, but he wasn't talented which toke him longer. but being said guo jing said one day of training for a person, he would make 10. basically like rock lee from naruto, guo jings talented or a genius of hard working.

but still after drinking snake blood boosting his chi, to learning the 18 dragon palm, guo jing really didn't get to lose focus or concentration like yang guo who was always running around looking for someone etc.

guo jing basically had alot more character development to give since there was more time to pass by for his training etc while yang guo, everything pretty much happen like the next day. so yang guo was able to learn everything but not master them.

basically like in bleach, people complain that ichigo kurosaki is the slowest main character with a little bit of move, but the fact is like yang guo, the whole story revolve within a short period of time. for ichigo, he was able to learn shunpou, swordsman ship, getsuga(blue) bankai, getsuga tenshou(from hollow ichigo), and this was all within soul society arc. after leaving soul society, couple days at most past by, he met gimmjaw, got owned, trained couple days with vizards to use 11 seconds hollowfication, gets own again. inoue gets captured, goes right to hueco mundo to save her, after each fight training his hollowifcation but also improving on all of his other skills at the same time. then after beating grimmjaw, using his mask longer, he was able to get owned then defeated ulquiorra after going in to level 2 hollowifcation, but then gets owned by aizen.

so all i'm saying characters like yang guo n ichigo from bleach all had little time to perfect there techniques. they were always busy with the next task at hand to really have time alone to train.

so being said, i really do believe if yang kang was actually willing to train etc he would've been able to be stronger then guo jing. imagine if guo jing was in yang kangs shoes. imagine if guo jing was a snotty brat, but a dumb one in fact. he wouldn't have learn squat.

[Snafu3721]

after meeting huang rong, she pushed him to learn martial arts, then he drank the blood of the 1000 year snake said to give him alot of chi, which was why after meeting hong chi gong, h7g said he was able to learn the dragon palm due to he had alot of chi, but he wasn't talented which toke him longer. but being said guo jing said one day of training for a person, he would make 10. basically like rock lee from naruto, guo jings talented or a genius of hard working.

2 things:

1) In the Novel, esp newer editions, GJ didn't gain much chi from the snake blood.

2) The Rock Lee example is exactly what I've been advocating. That although GJ seems slow compared to others, he is actually a "genius" in his own right. He is a genius of hard work and mastery of what he learns.

[Snafu3721]

@Tape

I shouldn't have compared GJ and YG watching Greats since i did mention previously to use pre 9-Yin GJ. So your point is very valid-- GJ already benefited from 9-yin which helped him learn new principles. (But on a slightly tangential note: YG also had parts of 9-Yin and other martial arts when he say OYF and H7G duel =P).

As to YG's lack of focus-- that's exactly my point on GJ's talent. Very few people have the ability to just focus like GJ. It's something that GJ can do, and do very well. He is able to clear his mind of distractions and focus on martial arts. He's reached a high level of zen when it comes to this ability. It is also this reason that GJ can learn Ma Yu's breathing techniques. And as I still believe Ma Yu literally just taught GJ simple breathing exercises and how to sleep.

“Could the Taoist master have taught me neigong?” wondered Guo Jing finally understanding. He said, “During these past two years, someone came, every evening, to teach me how to breathe, to sit and meditate and to sleep. I found it funny, but I followed his instructions. But he didn’t teach me any techniques, but he did tell me to not talk of it with anyone. Since I thought that there wasn’t anything wrong with it and that it didn’t affect my practicing, I didn’t speak of it to any of you. I recognize my mistake; I won’t go to him anymore.” He kowtowed.

The Six looked at each other and thought, “The young man seems sincere, and he doesn’t seem to be lying.”

“Don’t you know what the neigong is?” Han Xiaoying asked.

“I really don’t know what the neigong is!” Guo Jing said. “He told me to sit and meditate and to breathe slowly, without thinking about anything while concentrating only on the way the breath circulates inside the body. In the beginning I couldn’t manage to do it, but lately I’ve had the impression that, inside me, there was something like a hot small mouse running through all of my body; it was very funny.”

___________________________________________

In fact, Guo Jing did have a simple mind. Compared to so-called intelligent people, he didn’t have a head cluttered full of difficult and meandering thoughts to bother him. His type of mind encouraged progress in the acquirement of neigong. Thus, in barely two years, he had succeeded in reaching this level.

[tape]

Yang Guo wasn't focused because he had the ability to learn so much, and he learned them all to a decent but not Great level.

Guo Jing was unable to learn anything except arts suitable for him (in the beginning) because he wasn't talented/smart enough.

I don't really think that it should be classified as genius or talent in that regard, more of a normally negative trait that winds up working in his favor. I think it might be results oriented that we consider him a talent just because he actually did wind up there.

I'm just thinking it from a stats perspective, where if Guo Jing was put in 100 different wuxia situations, he would come out favorably (with regards to martial arts) much less often than say Yang Guo. That's why I don't think he has martial arts talent, but it just so happened his situations fit him perfectly.

[Snafu3721]

I'm just thinking it from a stats perspective, where if Guo Jing was put in 100 different wuxia situations, he would come out favorably (with regards to martial arts) much less often than say Yang Guo. That's why I don't think he has martial arts talent, but it just so happened his situations fit him perfectly.

And this is where the opinion differs in the forum.

If we were to use an RPG stats perspective, I personally think GJ has higher "martial arts" stats than YG. YG obviously has higher intelligence, charisma, etc... But pure martial arts instinct, I would give it to GJ.

So put into 100 different marial arts only scenarios, I actually can't say who would come out ahead.
_____________________

Building on that idea--

Another analogy would be: GJ is the character that's really hard to lvl in the beginning. But later during the game, he becomes a powerhouse.

Ex: A lvl 1 GJ character will take you 5000 exp to lvl to 10. Whereas YG characters would take like only 2000 exp. In the beginning... the YG character dominates because of the speedy lvl ups. But at a certain breaking point, a lvl 50 GJ can master and perfect arts that would be equivalent to the techniques of a lvl 70 YG. Then later on, a lvl 70 GJ > Lvl 100 YG.

Again, not saying in this particular example that GJ will always win against YG. Just using the two archetypes as examples to illustrate that GJ has a different type of talent.

[kidd]

Yang Kang's thread has officially been hijacked by Guo Jing.

[Ken Cheng]

Yang Kang's thread has officially been hijacked by Guo Jing.

That's a first.

[tape]

And this is where the opinion differs in the forum.

If we were to use an RPG stats perspective, I personally think GJ has higher "martial arts" stats than YG. YG obviously has higher intelligence, charisma, etc... But pure martial arts instinct, I would give it to GJ.

So put into 100 different marial arts only scenarios, I actually can't say who would come out ahead.
_____________________

Building on that idea--

Another analogy would be: GJ is the character that's really hard to lvl in the beginning. But later during the game, he becomes a powerhouse.

Ex: A lvl 1 GJ character will take you 5000 exp to lvl to 10. Whereas YG characters would take like only 2000 exp. In the beginning... the YG character dominates because of the speedy lvl ups. But at a certain breaking point, a lvl 50 GJ can master and perfect arts that would be equivalent to the techniques of a lvl 70 YG. Then later on, a lvl 70 GJ > Lvl 100 YG.

Again, not saying in this particular example that GJ will always win against YG. Just using the two archetypes as examples to illustrate that GJ has a different type of talent.

Right, there's no point in arguing because we've already stated our positions and I think both sides have merit.

It all depends on if you view the luck GJ had as the primary reason for his success, or his innate character traits as the reason for his success. I think Quanzhen internal, dragon palms, 9 Yin, Vacant Fists, L/R, watching greats fight etc all contributed to his success much more than any character trait of his. Your RPG example I disagree with because I think GJ only surpasses YG if he receives all those things. Without any of the above he would prove inferior to YG in similar situations.

Given all those martial arts he had access to at such a young age, I think a truly talented person would have reached even higher martial arts than he did. Of course he is the #1 or #2 best fighter in the novel most likely, but that still doesn't mean he unleashed the full potential of those arts, nor does it mean he has any special talent.

[Mido-Ban]

well it seems like the way you guys are comparing guo jing n yang guo is like hua shan martial arts in state of divinity/smiling proud wanderer. guo jing is the internal energy clan, while yang guo is the sword clan. didn't yue bu qin(not sure how you say his name) said something like 5 years time both sword and internal energy clan will be the same 10 years the sword clan will beat the internal energy but 15 to 20 years time the internal energy clan will beat the sword clan. not sure if im using the years right but its something like that.

[chibidaisuke]

Right, there's no point in arguing because we've already stated our positions and I think both sides have merit.

It all depends on if you view the luck GJ had as the primary reason for his success, or his innate character traits as the reason for his success. I think Quanzhen internal, dragon palms, 9 Yin, Vacant Fists, L/R, watching greats fight etc all contributed to his success much more than any character trait of his. Your RPG example I disagree with because I think GJ only surpasses YG if he receives all those things. Without any of the above he would prove inferior to YG in similar situations.

Given all those martial arts he had access to at such a young age, I think a truly talented person would have reached even higher martial arts than he did. Of course he is the #1 or #2 best fighter in the novel most likely, but that still doesn't mean he unleashed the full potential of those arts, nor does it mean he has any special talent.

I don't think if it's another practitioner he would surpass Guo Jing either since Jin Yong probably wants all the Greats to be around equal. If the other 'practitioner' surpasses Guo Jing then it kinda puts him quite beyond the other Greats.

[CBWarm]

I think Yang Kang would be a good martial artist but he may not have the commitment to train for years.