Xiao Feng vs. Dugu Qiubai

[kwekmh]

DGQB will pwn XF easily.

From what level of martial arts DGQB have seen to reach, he should be SM's level to me.

JY should write a book on DGQB. But it will be boring since all DGQB's opponents will lose.

[Phoenix_Aquaris]

DGQB will pwn XF easily.

From what level of martial arts DGQB have seen to reach, he should be SM's level to me.

JY should write a book on DGQB. But it will be boring since all DGQB's opponents will lose.

Not really, JY creativity can make wonders. Just write about his adventure before his success and everything, his path to "sword enlightenment" especially.

I find it weird that XF is being compared to DGQB in terms of martial arts. I know he is good, but DGQB is meant to be undefeatable, literally.

[strife_au]

Not really, JY creativity can make wonders. Just write about his adventure before his success and everything, his path to "sword enlightenment" especially.

I find it weird that XF is being compared to DGSD in terms of martial arts. I know he is good, but DGSD is meant to be undefeatable, literally.

dont you mean DGQB

[Phoenix_Aquaris]

dont you mean DGQB

Can you not embarrass me here? Can't you just send me a PM telling me I made a mistake? Lol.. Kidding

[PJ]

DGQB will pwn XF easily.

From what level of martial arts DGQB have seen to reach, he should be SM's level to me.

Not really. Pre-16 years Yang Guo was said to resemble the Dugu Qiubai in his 30s. Post 16-years Yang guo nearly doubled his power. In my opinion Dugu Qiubai is only slightly superior to the Greats at the end of ROCH. Dugu Qiubai might have developed more exquisite sword techniques but that doesn't mean he can automatically defeat someone who hasn't reached the swordless stage.

[Whsie]

Not really. Pre-16 years Yang Guo was said to resemble the Dugu Qiubai in his 30s. Post 16-years Yang guo nearly doubled his power. In my opinion Dugu Qiubai is only slightly superior to the Greats.

Well, ok let's use this system. Level 1 is regular sword. Level 2 is Heavy Iron. Level 3 is Wooden. And I won't go beyond that for now.
It's confirmed that DGQB has mastered Wooden level and could use it as good as the Heavy Iron. So DGQB is at least at Level 3.
YG at the end of Pre 16 Years mastered Heavy Iron and is at Level 2.
YG at the Post 16 Years had progess on Wooden, but didn't master it as evidenced by the battle against JLFW where his sword broke... twice. However, even unmastered, he could cause waves and beat the Condor within 3 stances with the wooden. So this shows that YG has some progress on Wooden stage. So YG is approx level 2.5. Overall in comparision, YG's level 2.5 and DGQB's level 3, DGQB is stronger. And it's even possible that he has gone farther which I personally think he did, but no proof of that.

[Dennis Chen]

What was DGQB's internal? Do we know for a fact that he was able to consume snake bladders like Yang Guo? If not, could he really have been above the Greats?

The sword techniques themselves are dead. It's the person that makes it come alive. Founder's Long Fist is just any other typical martial arts to anyone who practices it, in Xiao Feng's hands, it could defeat the most powerful of opponents. Who's to say that Quanzhen Jian Fa in Wang Chongyang's hands, Yi Yang Zhi in Yi Deng's fingers, Xiang Long Shi Ba Zhang in Hong Qi Gong's palms, Hama Gong in Ouyang Feng's palms and Tan Zhi Shen Tong in Huang Yaoshi's fingers wasn't a match for Dugu Qiubai's sword?

Yang Guo learned Dugu Qiubai's sword techniques and became a Great at 36, but he had the help of snake bladders. Linghu Chong - while he had great sword skills - would still lose to Ren Woxing; only learning Yi Jinjing gave and melding all the different chi in his system gave him a chance at defeating Ren Woxing. Even then if Ren Woxing hadn't died on his own, Linghu Chong would have lost.

Guo Jing after spending only 2 years learning Quanzhen internal arts had better internal than his 7 masters and this was without learning Xian Tian Gong. It was with 9 Ying Zhen Jin that he was able to become a great at 36. But with his progress in 2 years, it's not unreasonable to believe that he wouldn't have reached Great status when he was in his 60's or 70's. Even earlier had he learned Xian Tian Gong.

Zhou Botong was different from his martial niece and nephews. The 7 Masters concentrated on Daoism, Zhou Botong concentrated on martial arts. Zhou Botong, after learning Quanzhen martial arts also became a Great. His internal was no less than the other Great's. Arguably, his external arts were slightly better than Wang Chongyang's Quanzhen arts, but his internal was still unarguably Quanzhen. But isn't that kind of what the student is supposed to do? Improve on his master?
-- Yang Guo improved over Dugu Qiubai with his self created Sad Palms (the martial arts that defeated Jin Lun Guo Shi)
-- Linghu Chong also followed the spirit of improving all the time through his constant adaption to every situation where (ultimately) he would create his own skill which while following down the path of Dugu Qiubai's sword theories is still a style all his own, one that adapts to the way he thinks, the way his body moves and the experiences he acquires (through life and his opponents).
Zhou Botong did the same thing. He took what he was taught and adapted it to the way he thinks, the way his body moves and teh experiences that he acquired.

Based upon the reasoning of many of the fans of DGQB, it's no where near clear to me that DGQB was ahead of Wang Chongyang.

[PJ]

Well, ok let's use this system. Level 1 is regular sword. Level 2 is Heavy Iron. Level 3 is Wooden. And I won't go beyond that for now.
It's confirmed that DGQB has mastered Wooden level and could use it as good as the Heavy Iron. So DGQB is at least at Level 3.
YG at the end of Pre 16 Years mastered Heavy Iron and is at Level 2.
YG at the Post 16 Years had progess on Wooden, but didn't master it as evidenced by the battle against JLFW where his sword broke... twice. However, even unmastered, he could cause waves and beat the Condor within 3 stances with the wooden. So this shows that YG has some progress on Wooden stage. So YG is approx level 2.5. Overall in comparision, YG's level 2.5 and DGQB's level 3, DGQB is stronger. And it's even possible that he has gone farther which I personally think he did, but no proof of that.

I am very much in agreement with your assessment for the most part. However there is one note that should not be neglected, and that is: Dugu Qiubai's way is not the only way. Yang Guo doesn't have to reach the wooden sword stage to surpass Dugu Qiubai (not that I believe Yang Guo has surpassed him). Anyone who is much faster or has a lot more internal energy than Dugu Qiubai should be able to defeat the Demonic Swordsman.

[Whsie]

杨过瞧着山洪奔腾而下，心通其理，手精其术，知道重剑的剑法已尽于此，不必再练，便是剑魔复生，所能传授的 剑术也不过如此而已。将来内力日长，所用之剑便可日轻，终于使木剑如使重剑，那只是功力自浅而深，全仗自己修为，至于剑术，却至此而达止境。

That's how the process is suppose to go. The difference of Wooden Stage and Heavy Iron Stage all relies on how good your internal is. What I think happened with YG was that his internal has not reached the point where he can use the Wooden like the Heavy Iron as said there. This suggests that DGQB should be considerably higher than YG and the others because DGQB mastered Wooden stage. And in order to master wooden stage, it's mentioned in the quote, have higher internal. Therefore, I dare to say DGQB>YG in internal. And seeing how hard it is to master just half a level, I dare to say that the difference between YG and DGQB is not marginal.

[Dennis Chen]

Maybe Yang Guo didn't need a weapon anymore at his highest level. He had created Sad Palms. If you can use your palm to defeat your enemy whether he/she is using his fist, his palm, his finger, his spear or his sword, why would you need a sword, wooden or otherwise?

What's a greater accomplishment? Defeating your sword wielding opponent with a wooden sword or your palms?

Maybe Yang Guo didn't reach the same sword skill level as Dugu Qiubai, but that doesn't mean that Yang Guo's Sad Palms wasn't the equal of Dugu Qiubai's wooden sword.

[Whsie]

Maybe Yang Guo didn't need a weapon anymore. He had created Sad Palms. If you can use your palm to defeat your enemy whether he/she is using his fist, his palm, his finger, his spear or his sword, why would you need a wooden sword?

What's a greater accomplishment? Defeating your sword wielding opponent with a wooden sword or your palms?

Maybe Yang Guo didn't reach the same sword skill level as Dugu Qiubai, but that doesn't mean that Yang Guo's Sad Palms wasn't the equal of Dugu Qiubai's wooden sword.

That's not the point though. In sword level, YG is not up to DGQB. In external, YG is probably not weaker since he has gotten to formlessness on sword. And has a extermely strong palm enhanced by emotions. But the point of me showing that quote above is to show that because DGQB has fully mastered wooden stage and could use a wood sword as good as a heavy iron, DGQB's internal is higher than YG. The quote said that the difference in levels of Heavy Iron and Wooden is internal. And since DGQB mastered his wood stage while YG didn't, DGQB has better internal.

[Dennis Chen]

That's not the point though. In sword level, YG is not up to DGQB. In external, YG is probably not weaker since he has gotten to formlessness on sword. And has a extermely strong palm enhanced by emotions. But the point of me showing that quote above is to show that because DGQB has fully mastered wooden stage and could use a wood sword as good as a heavy iron, DGQB's internal is higher than YG. The quote said that the difference in levels of Heavy Iron and Wooden is internal. And since DGQB mastered his wood stage while YG didn't, DGQB has better internal.

Okay, let's say DGQB's internal is higher than YG's. Where's the proof that YG's (or DGQB's for that matter) internal was higher than Wang Chongyang's?

I don't think there's anything that says any of the East, West, North or South Greats have exceeded Wang Chongyang in martial arts or internal. In fact, Jin Yong took pains in the 3rd edition to remove lines that hinted that they may have.

[PJ]

Okay, let's say DGQB's internal is higher than YG's. Where's the proof that YG's (or DGQB's for that matter) internal was higher than Wang Chongyang's?

Why the hell do you keep bringing up Wang Chongyang? We are talking about Dugu Qiubai here. But since you want to talk about Wang Chongyang, let's divert our attention to Wang Chongyang for a minute.

At the end of ROCH, was Wang thought to be better than the Greats by anyone besides his sect fellows? I don't think so. However I seem to recall 2 details:

1) in LOCH, Zhou Botong said "after 7 days of battle, the 9 Yin manual FINALLY (ZHONG YU) ended up in my brother's hands." The wording sounds to me like Wang Chongyang could not edge out the Greats easily even in pre-LOCH time. By the end of ROCH, the Greats had probably trippled their martial arts level since they sparred with Wang Chongyang. So Wang would have to have been about 3 times better than the Greats initially to not be inferior to them at the end of ROCH.

2) At the end of ROCH, Huang Yaoshi said that Wang Chongyang probably could not defeat Dragon Girl easily, whereas Golden Wheel Monk thought that he could crush the combined force of pre-16 years Dragon Girl and Yang Guo.

[Whsie]

Okay, let's say DGQB's internal is higher than YG's. Where's the proof that YG's (or DGQB's for that matter) internal was higher than Wang Chongyang's?

YG's internal...., I can't say that for sure. However, his martial art when enhanced by emotions is on a whole new level. One level greater than the typical Greats.
It took YG 5 stances to beat JLFW when he became enhanced. Using 拖泥带水, 魂不守舍, 倒行逆施, 若有所失, 行尸走肉.
Just to tell you, the reason why YG took longer on ZBT and HYS is because he held somewhat back. If YG had constantly attacked and not give any breathing room like he did for JLFW, ZBT wouldn't have been able to handle YG's palm(besides, YG tells his palm, it's like telling ZBT to be prepared). Notice how ZBT took quite a while to dissolve a palm. And he had plenty of trouble; however if YG had send one after another, ZBT may not have handled it. As for HYS's case, YG wanted to force HYS use Nan Hai Sen Ni's palm (which doesn't exist), therefore he sent one palm at a time. He may not have held back on power, but if he had constantly attacked, I don't see how HYS can take many stances.
But anyway, for WCY's case. ZBT once asked JLFW if he can handle 10 stances from WCY if WCY were alive. Therefore, this suggests that maybe WCY is still above ZBT, HYS, and Yideng(BUT ZBT is still from QZ, so not a the best source). But 10 stances compared to 5 stances? Maybe YG is better overall. However, I'm not sure how to prove the internal.

[Ken Cheng]

It took YG 5 stances to beat JLFW when he became enhanced. Using 拖泥带水, 魂不守舍, 倒行逆施, 若有所失, 行尸走肉.

I was under the impression that it was fancy technique, not overwhelming inner power, that did the Golden Wheel Monk in.

[Whsie]

I was under the impression that it was fancy technique, not overwhelming inner power, that did the Golden Wheel Monk in.

杨过面临极大险境，数次要使出黯然销魂掌来摧败强敌，但这路掌法身与心合，他自与小龙女相会之后，喜悦欢乐 ，哪里有半分“黯然销魂”的心情？虽在危急之中，仍无昔日那一份相思之苦，因之一招一式，使出去总是差之厘毫，威力有限。
I don't know about you, but I have the feeling that YG may have used some of Sad Palm stances already or else it wouldn't say "execute". You may be right, but I have the feeling that YG already used some of Sad Palm.

[kwekmh]

杨过面临极大险境，数次要使出黯然销魂掌来摧败强敌，但这路掌法身与心合，他自与小龙女相会之后，喜悦欢乐 ，哪里有半分“黯然销魂”的心情？虽在危急之中，仍无昔日那一份相思之苦，因之一招一式，使出去总是差之厘毫，威力有限。
I don't know about you, but I have the feeling that YG may have used some of Sad Palm stances already or else it wouldn't say "execute". You may be right, but I have the feeling that YG already used some of Sad Palm.

I think that execution of the sad palm was not perfect, meaning he couldnt execute it to perfectness.

[ChronoReverse]

Regardless of whether the power increased or not, it wasn't like his Sad Palms smashed right through GWM's guard. It slipped through in an unexpected manner that GWM couldn't see in time.

And even after landing more than one blow, GWM wasn't dead. Not only could he have still gotten away, in 3rd edition he still could generate an immense force to lift a gigantic beam.

[Whsie]

Regardless of whether the power increased or not, it wasn't like his Sad Palms smashed right through GWM's guard. It slipped through in an unexpected manner that GWM couldn't see in time.

And even after landing more than one blow, GWM wasn't dead. Not only could he have still gotten away, in 3rd edition he still could generate an immense force to lift a gigantic beam.

But, JLFW still lost.

To kwekmh: I think it was executed correctly, but the quote said since he doesn't have the depressed feeling, his power on the palm is limited. Therefore, even with Sad Palm, the power is not enough to beat JLFW.

[IcyFox]

Back to this point :

That DGQB would be pleased to meet a person like RWX.

DGQB would be happy to meet RWX simply because:

Dugu Qiubai is superior to Ren Woxing, but he would still need to use some defensive techniques against Ren. Dugu being happy to meet an opponent like Ren Woxing doesn't mean Dugu is equal to Ren, it just means that for Dugu, it was hard to find an opponent of Ren's caliber.

So, the main idea is that DGQB would be happy to meet someone who has a chance of making him defend himself.

Simple as that. DGQB wasn't happy fighting one-sided fights all the time.