Xiao Feng vs. Dugu Qiubai

[ChronoReverse]

I'm glad someone gets it. It's really hard to bring across this point for some reason.

[Whsie]

I'm glad someone gets it. It's really hard to bring across this point for some reason.

yes....., not just this point, but also the DGQB and YG comparision in internal. And to be all honest, I still don't think a lot of people got what I'm trying to get across.

[Dennis Chen]

2) At the end of ROCH, Huang Yaoshi said that Wang Chongyang probably could not defeat Dragon Girl easily, whereas Golden Wheel Monk thought that he could crush the combined force of pre-16 years Dragon Girl and Yang Guo.

Can you provide the text please?

Why the hell do you keep bringing up Wang Chongyang? We are talking about Dugu Qiubai here. But since you want to talk about Wang Chongyang, let's divert our attention to Wang Chongyang for a minute.

Because everyone tries to prove DGQB's greatness by saying he is better than the Greats (or at the very least, Yang Guo) and Wang Chongyang was a Great. Even if I were convinced that DGQB was better than all the East, West, North and South Greats, that doesn't prove that DGQB was better than Central Divinity since everyone that has ever met and fought with Wang Chongyang always (no matter how big the ego) defers to Central Divinity's greatness.

Dugu Qiubai said he was undefeated in his lifetime. Wang Chongyang said he was undefeated in his lifetime. Unlike with DGQB, with WCY, we have proof: the words of 5 of the most powerful martial artists of their time.

Dugu Qiubai had 2 wonderful students (3 if you count Feng Qingyang): Yang Guo and Linghu Chong. Wang Chonygang had 3 wonderful students: Zhou Botong, Guo Jing and Yang Guo (4 if you count Xiao Longnu).

Some people might discount Guo Jing and Yang Guo. That would be erroneous in my humble opinion. Guo Jing's internal foundation was Quanzhen which paved the way for learning 9 Ying and probably helped him alot in learning 9 Ying since they were so similar. Yang Guo's external foundation is Quanzhen which was a requirement before learning the Jade Maiden technique. This would further pave the way for him to pick up the sword techniques of Dugu Qiubai.

People say that DGQB must have been powerful because his techniques were so awesome in the hands of others and he was supposed to be better than them. Well, quite a few people have become awesome with WCY's martial arts and he was supposed to have been better than them.

But anyway, for WCY's case. ZBT once asked JLFW if he can handle 10 stances from WCY if WCY were alive. Therefore, this suggests that maybe WCY is still above ZBT, HYS, and Yideng(BUT ZBT is still from QZ, so not a the best source). But 10 stances compared to 5 stances? Maybe YG is better overall. However, I'm not sure how to prove the internal.

I think all the Greats were very practical when it came to gauging another martial artist's skill.

[kwekmh]

Back to this point :


DGQB would be happy to meet RWX simply because:



So, the main idea is that DGQB would be happy to meet someone who has a chance of making him defend himself.

Simple as that. DGQB wasn't happy fighting one-sided fights all the time.

Yeah. DGQB wont want to get his internal energy sucked by RWX.

[Laviathan]

1) in LOCH, Zhou Botong said "after 7 days of battle, the 9 Yin manual FINALLY (ZHONG YU) ended up in my brother's hands." The wording sounds to me like Wang Chongyang could not edge out the Greats easily even in pre-LOCH time. By the end of ROCH, the Greats had probably trippled their martial arts level since they sparred with Wang Chongyang. So Wang would have to have been about 3 times better than the Greats initially to not be inferior to them at the end of ROCH.

"Zhongyu" can also just mean "in the end".

2) At the end of ROCH, Huang Yaoshi said that Wang Chongyang probably could not defeat Dragon Girl easily, whereas Golden Wheel Monk thought that he could crush the combined force of pre-16 years Dragon Girl and Yang Guo.

Huang Yaoshi just said this because he wanted to tease Zhou Botong.

[Laviathan]

I was under the impression that it was fancy technique, not overwhelming inner power, that did the Golden Wheel Monk in.

And I presume this impression of yours is based on crappy TVB adaptations?

[Athena]

1) in LOCH, Zhou Botong said "after 7 days of battle, the 9 Yin manual FINALLY (ZHONG YU) ended up in my brother's hands." The wording sounds to me like Wang Chongyang could not edge out the Greats easily even in pre-LOCH time. By the end of ROCH, the Greats had probably trippled their martial arts level since they sparred with Wang Chongyang. So Wang would have to have been about 3 times better than the Greats initially to not be inferior to them at the end of ROCH.

2) At the end of ROCH, Huang Yaoshi said that Wang Chongyang probably could not defeat Dragon Girl easily, whereas Golden Wheel Monk thought that he could crush the combined force of pre-16 years Dragon Girl and Yang Guo.

Incorrect, Huang Yaoshi only said that that Xiao Longnu was the heir of Lin Chaoying and Wang Chongyang also feared Lin Chaoying a bit when she was alive. And if she was alive during the first tournament and entered the tournament the outcome might have been different. Nowhere did it say that Wang would be able to defeat Xiao Longnu.

Secondly, Zhou Botong said:"At the time, it was Winter. At the top of Mount Hua, thick snow had covered the mountain. The five of them, discussed martial arts and duelled. They duelled and discussed for seven days and nights. In the end East Heretic, West Venom, South Emperor, North Beggar all respected and revered my martial arts brother's skills as the number one in the world. Do you know why they gathered at Mount Hua?"

Back to my retirement.

[Extremer88]

Back to my retirement.

She's gone again...

[Whsie]

Yeah..... gone again

[PJ]

Incorrect, Huang Yaoshi only said that that Xiao Longnu was the heir of Lin Chaoying and Wang Chongyang also feared Lin Chaoying a bit when she was alive. And if she was alive during the first tournament and entered the tournament the outcome might have been different. Nowhere did it say that Wang would be able to defeat Xiao Longnu.

Huang Yaoshi also said: 杨夫人小龙女是古墓派唯一传人，玉女素心剑法出
神入化，纵然是重阳真人，见了她 [小龙女] 也忌惮三分。

Secondly, Zhou Botong said: ".... in the end East Heretic, West Venom, South Emperor, North Beggar all respected and revered my martial arts brother's skills as the number one in the world.

It sounds to me more like this: "It took 7 days 7 nights to convince the 4 Greats that Wang Chongyang was the number one martial artist in the world." It didn't sound like 6 days 6 nights would have been enough to convince the 4 Greats. The fact is that the Greats were convinced after 7 full days and nights. If Wang Chongyang were 2 to 3 times better than the Greats at that time, should it really take that long to convince them of his superiority? I have some doubts about that. We don't know exactly how the big duel operated, however it is a bit hard for me to imagine that it would take 7 days for someone with immense superiority to get 4 people to agree that he is #1--even if some of the Greats are very cocky AND 9 Yin manual is at stake.

[PJ]

"Zhongyu" can also just mean "in the end".

I must confess that the wording in the context sounded to me more intense than simply "in the end." It is regrettable that we don't know more details about the legendary 7-day duel.

Huang Yaoshi just said this because he wanted to tease Zhou Botong.

Right, but Zhou Botong--who usually brags about Wang Chongyang at every chance--did not object to Huang Yaoshi's comment about Dragon Girl possibly giving some trouble to Wang.

[kyss of the sword]

ZBT could not argue about XLN giving WCY trouble because she was using a swordskill based on the best of WCY's skills combined with a swordplay that could beat his school using ZBT's l/r technique. WCY would not be able to beat JLFW easily through he would win, and XLN was beating JLFW in a short period of time, that puts her in the same class as WCY in skills at least through he can't compare in internal strenght.

DGKB did not have just wood sword stage, he actually supressed that to reach formless stage.
this is DGKB school level.
1: sharp sword, fast.
2: flexible sword of purple rose, soft.
3: heavy sword, inner power.
4: wood sword, culmination of agility and inner strenght.
5: no sword, formless palm/fist/finger/etc with sword chi.
this is an estimate of each level in technique and inner power, flexible sword X2 sharp sword. heavy sword X2 flexible sword. wood sword X2 heavy sword. no sword X2 wood sword.
guess how powerful DGKB is? yang guo X2 at end of ROCH.

[Whsie]

This is what I have always been suggesting.
DGQB was shown to AT LEAST master Wooden stage. To get to wooden stage you need a certain amount of internal.
YG has not mastered wooden stage because he doesn't have enough internal to do so.
SO? Because of this, I dare to say taht DGQB is > YG in the internal area. The external, I don't know. However, internal, DGQB is better.

[Athena]

黃藥師道：“東邪、西狂、南僧、北俠四個人都有了，中央的那一位，該當由誰居之？”說著向周伯通望了一眼， 續道：“楊夫人小龍女是古墓派唯一傳人，玉女素心劍法出神入化，縱然是重陽真人，見了她也忌憚 三分。 edition 2

“楊夫人小龍女是古墓派唯一傳人。 想當年林朝英女俠武功卓絕， 玉女劍法出神入化，縱然是重陽真人，見了她也忌憚三分。 edition 3

[kyss of the sword]

actually yang guo mastered wood sword level, and when he created sad palms, he entered the level of using no sword to overcome a sword/weapon. DGKB should be better then yang guo because he practised for much longer and his way of practise did not contain the emotional barrier of sad palms. DGKB said that he had slowly reached the level of over coming the sword with no sword. the word slowly tells us that DGKB had practised for a long time even after reaching wood sword level. yang guo practised for about five yrs to master wood sword and in his sixth yr came up with sad palms and entered no sword level. to reach DGKB's level, he would need to intensly train for at least twice as long as it took him for wood sword level. YG like the rest of the greats never stopped improving but with training in the south seas, his progress would have been a little slower. when yang guo reaches fifty or sixty, he may have reached DGKKB peak level.

[Ken Cheng]

And I presume this impression of yours is based on crappy TVB adaptations?

Not this time. It was based on what people have said here about Sad Palms.

[ChronoReverse]

Frankly, if you watched TVB, you'd assume it was just pure power that crushed GWM.

It doesn't feel that way at all though from the text.

[Whsie]

actually yang guo mastered wood sword level, and when he created sad palms, he entered the level of using no sword to overcome a sword/weapon. DGKB should be better then yang guo because he practised for much longer and his way of practise did not contain the emotional barrier of sad palms. DGKB said that he had slowly reached the level of over coming the sword with no sword. the word slowly tells us that DGKB had practised for a long time even after reaching wood sword level. yang guo practised for about five yrs to master wood sword and in his sixth yr came up with sad palms and entered no sword level. to reach DGKB's level, he would need to intensly train for at least twice as long as it took him for wood sword level. YG like the rest of the greats never stopped improving but with training in the south seas, his progress would have been a little slower. when yang guo reaches fifty or sixty, he may have reached DGKKB peak level.

杨过瞧着山洪奔腾而下，心通其理，手精其术，知道重剑的剑法已尽于此，不必再练，便是剑魔复生 ，所能传授的 剑术也不过如此而已。将来内力日长，所用之剑便可日轻，终于使木剑如使重剑，那只是功力自浅而深，全仗自己修为，至于剑术，却至此而达止境。
I'm still insisting that YG only mastered Wood Stage half way because of the bolded part above. According to what is said, YG is suppose to use wood sword like a heavy iron sword if he were to have fully mastered the wooden stage.
Since you should be able to use a wooden sword like a heavy iron sword, then why did his sword broke TWICE? If YG really had used his heavy iron sword, I'm sure JLFW wouldn't be able to break through Heavy Iron.

[Phoenix_Aquaris]

this is DGKB school level.
1: sharp sword, fast.
2: flexible sword of purple rose, soft.
3: heavy sword, inner power.
4: wood sword, culmination of agility and inner strenght.
5: no sword, formless palm/fist/finger/etc with sword chi.

I beg to differ.

1. Ordinary swordplay. Perhaps stronger than the real common type because of the sharpness of the sword and certain proficiency at swordplay.
2. Flexible Swordplay. One word: Fast.
3. Heavy Iron Sword. Internal energy, coupled with the knowledge stances were nothing but decorations. The essence of this swordplay lies with raw power and nothing else.
4. Wooden sword. Reach a stage in which swords are no longer a prerequisite when performing swordplay. Twigs on the ground proved more of a threat than the Heavenly Sword. Inner strength might be redundant, as one considers how LHC managed to fight off enemies without internal energy at some time in his journey. This stage is one step lower to the 5th stage, it required the use of any physical object. Stances, internal energy, agility are unimportant at this stage.
5. Like 6MSJ, but besides being formless, it has no stances too. Sort of DGSJ without any fixed stances, but there should be more to it I guess..

[Phoenix_Aquaris]

this is an estimate of each level in technique and inner power, flexible sword X2 sharp sword. heavy sword X2 flexible sword. wood sword X2 heavy sword. no sword X2 wood sword.
guess how powerful DGKB is? yang guo X2 at end of ROCH.

IMHO, all speculation.

Like Whsie said, YG did not venture further into swordplay and has yet to reach the stage of wooden sword level. Besides, inner energy may prove useful into swordplay, but it can only bring you this far. Swordplay is swordplay, people who went berzerk trying to delve into the depths of ultimate mastery of the sword, explore the techniques, not just practise inner energy. There's no reason how you could link the level of YG's swordplay with his internal energy, it's just like comparing apples to oranges. No offence.

PS. How are you so sure each level in X2 stronger than the previous, anyway..