Xiao Feng vs. Dugu Qiubai

[flamer]

have you read XAJH? In my opinion, it's most likely what is represented by DG9J's formlessness and "overcoming technique with no technique", as explained in length by Feng Qingyang to Linghu Chong around chapter 10. Jin Yong probably hadn't fully fleshed out those ideas yet while writing ROCH and simply used the vague term "overcoming the sword without a sword". I really don't think he meant the phrase literally, as in no-sword, because as the ideas evolved through his discussions with Gu Long, they came to fruition in his later novel XAJH.

Lav and I both postulated before that DG9J was probably the sum of all of DGQB's martial arts philosophies compressed into a set of teachings, because it seems to encompass all the sword stages that Dugu went through. Of course, eventually landing him in the realm of "overcoming the sword without a sword", or formlessness, which seems to be a generally agreed upon consensus of the highest level of martial arts in the later and more mature martial arts writings of Jin Yong and Gu Long.

That's not really what I was asking. In a fight with DGQB, what should I observe from him? What does he do to defeat me?

[PJ]

Not really taking sides on XF vs. DGQB but I'm not so sure that 6MSJ's invisible sword qi is the same thing as the no-sword stage as mentioned by Dugu Qiubai. The no-sword stage was more likely Jin Yong's initial interpretation of formlessness and the idea of overcoming technique with no technique. This is inline with the theories of DG9J as explained in the later XAJH novel.

My friend, correct me if I am reading wrong, but are you suggesting that Dugu Qiubai *may not* have reached a stage where he primarily executes sword stances with his bare hands?

That would be a little strange, since Feng Qingyang actually introduced this concept to Linghu Chong.

[CC]

My friend, correct me if I am reading wrong, but are you suggesting that Dugu Qiubai *may not* have reached a stage where he primarily executes sword stances with his bare hands?

That would be a little strange, since Feng Qingyang actually introduced this concept to Linghu Chong.

That FCY/LHC exchange might have to do more with 'not being a mindless strict form-following Yue Buqun automaton' rather than being able to use bare hands like a sword.

At that point, LHC was still very rigid due to years of YBQ conditioning.

After all, by mid-book, LHC had grasped DG9J to a rather advanced stage (he could frustrate RWX and Chongxu!) but when he had no sword in hand, what happens? Even RYY would kick his butt. He definitely showed ZERO ability in that aspect.

Sure, JY might have intended DGKB to execute sword stances with his bare hands but as far as LHC is concerned, he showed ZERO development in that area throughout the entire book. i.e. If FCY was trying to introduce that concept to LHC.... FAIL!

[PJ]

But that's just someone who barely knew martial arts and learned the Dugu 9 Swords overnight and then only had a year (?) in the novel. We can't expect him to become proficient in something so advanced that even Dugu Qiubai only reached it at the apex of his attainments.

I believe executing (formless) sword stances with your hands is beyond the scope of Dugu 9 Swords (which I view as an introductory lesson on formless martial arts), but a master like Feng Qingyang has probably gone beyond Dugu 9 Swords, and that's why he was (most likely) capable of executing sword stances with his bare hands.

[bliss]

My friend, correct me if I am reading wrong, but are you suggesting that Dugu Qiubai *may not* have reached a stage where he primarily executes sword stances with his bare hands?

That would be a little strange, since Feng Qingyang actually introduced this concept to Linghu Chong.

I'm guessing it might be both. Being able to execute sword stances with no reliance on the medium (finger, sword, sword-qi) and also being able to execute them formlessly (surprising positions that counter every move in the world).

[pannonian]

But that's just someone who barely knew martial arts and learned the Dugu 9 Swords overnight and then only had a year (?) in the novel. We can't expect him to become proficient in something so advanced that even Dugu Qiubai only reached it at the apex of his attainments.

I believe executing (formless) sword stances with your hands is beyond the scope of Dugu 9 Swords (which I view as an introductory lesson on formless martial arts), but a master like Feng Qingyang has probably gone beyond Dugu 9 Swords, and that's why he was (most likely) capable of executing sword stances with his bare hands.

Like the Descending Flower palms?

[bliss]

Like the Descending Flower palms?

You're referring to HYS's Luoying Shenjian Zhang (or Taohua Luoying) right? But that was still grounded in the techniques of the original sword art, while Dugu 9 Jian is formless and without a strict set of techniques.

[bliss]

IIRC, 6MSJ seems closer to a finger technique such as Yiyang Zhi (in fact wasn't it introduced as an advanced version of Yiyang Zhi). Other than having "sword" in its name, 6MSJ doesn't bear much resemblance to a real sword. For example, in terms of the destruction produced in combat, I got the impression it's more on the wavelength of Dongfang Bubai's needle in blasting small holes in opponent's body, and not like the wound a real sword would produce.

My memory of DGSD is pretty shoddy but wasn't 6MSJ executed using sword-like stances (slashes, thrusts) as opposed to finger pokes?

[Dirt]

Luo Ying Shen Jian Zhang. It was just chopping motions.

[flamer]

If DGQB's no-sword means using bare hands to execute sword movies, then does that mean he trained his skin to be extremely tough? Otherwise how can he take a weapon clash head-on?

[PJ]

If DGQB's no-sword means using bare hands to execute sword movies, then does that mean he trained his skin to be extremely tough? Otherwise how can he take a weapon clash head-on?

I don't think Dugu Qiubai at his peak would need to clash with weapon head/hand on. Even Linghu Chong and Zhang Wuji when they first learned their semi-formless arts learned not to clash with a better weapon. Dugu Qiubai should be way ahead of them in martial arts wisdom. Dugu Qiubai at his peak should be either, or both, a) fast enough that no weapon can touch him, and he can subdue the weapon-wielder quickly; b) strong enough that he can produce lethal sword-like energies via long distance (which, the more I think about it, the more it does sound like 6MSJ).

[bliss]

I don't think Dugu Qiubai at his peak would need to clash with weapon head/hand on. Even Linghu Chong and Zhang Wuji when they first learned their semi-formless arts learned not to clash with a better weapon. Dugu Qiubai should be way ahead of them in martial arts wisdom. Dugu Qiubai at his peak should be either, or both, a) fast enough that no weapon can touch him, and he can subdue the weapon-wielder quickly; b) strong enough that he can produce lethal sword-like energies via long distance (which, the more I think about it, the more it does sound like 6MSJ).

With the difference being that Dugu's invisible sword-qi would also be surprisingly positioned and formless.

[PJ]

With the difference being that Dugu's invisible sword-qi would also be surprisingly positioned and formless.

Formless, yes. Surprising, I'm not sure - at least not in the same "surprising" vein as displayed by Linghu Chong, which I tend to view it as a beginner's way, but once a true master, one should not need to resort to such device.

But Dugu Qiubai could be surprising in other ways. For example, Sweeper Monk's single-stance execution looked simple but surprised everyone by being so effective. I imagine Dugu Qiubai, a true master, to be capable of producing similar, if less amazing, effects.

Contrary to what some may have been led to believe, I hold Dugu Qiubai in high regard.

[sir.zang]

according to the poll results Dugu Qiubai is better than Xiao Feng.

according to me, Dugu Qiubai kicks Xiao Feng's bug hairy qidan butt.